SGOTM 15 - Xteam

We have Elephantine, ivory, and can build WEs, but it has been tedious. Hat quit making mistakes and started whipping units in numbers. He will give us his techs for peace, but if we continue and take Alexandria and Illinois, might be able to get Lit and Giza (if we want it) as well for peace.

AP vote has just taken place at the beginning of this turn, proposing peace with Cyrus, and I did not defy it, thinking could make peace for 60 gold this turn. Next thing I know, Cyrus’s forces show up at the eastern edge of Opis, just asking to be slaughtered, but don’t think it can be done this turn – be crosses against cats over a river. (Do cats get river defense?) Peace treaty with the Babs just became breakable, so we could attack but would be at war with both. Have left the units out west unmoved, so next player can make the decision. Might be worth testing.

Also, left several new builds on hold, using a settler as a placeholder.

Attacking Ham looks to be extremely perilous, but not sure what the other option is.

Sent caravel exploring and continue to find a strange map. There may be a north/south barrier. At least doesn’t look like we can sail west from Babylon to Mongolia. Still not finding happiness resources.

Some details:

Killed a Persian archer and can now get a little gold for peace.

Our resourceful Bab spy was killed near the capital, and I have just built a new one, heading for Pat.

Had to build wealth in a majority of our cities for much of my set in order to stay in the black, but we are in better shape now and need to do some planning and prioritizing before proceeding.

Ham sent a caravel to Kagoshima, and I was concerned that another peace vote would be taken and a missionary dropped of, but didn’t happen.

Captured Heliopolis (on a hill), losing 1sp, 1sw, 1axe, and 2 trebs; gained 120 gold
Captured Elephantine on grassland, but, thanks to the rng, lost 3 trebs (all slight favorites), 2 crosses, 1 axe and 1 cat; again gained about 120 gold
Destroyed a great many Egyptian units during the turn set, as Hat was foolish initially. Estimated that I was destroying 4 units for each one lost, yet they kept coming

Illinois was defended by only 2 longbows about 4 turns ago

Eliz is now running Free Market, and numerous GPs have been born in far away lands

We discovered iron in a mine near Vij

Getting way late. Will check in tomorrow.

Save (But not the one at central. Can't get in there to post it. Will try tomorrow. Next player can't use this one..): http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=319442&stc=1&d=1334904976

Description looks good CP. Haven't examined the save yet. My gut reaction is "Kill Hatty!!" Hammy will take some more thought...

Just had a quick look at the save. The economy is certainly in better shape now than when your turnset started, CP

Unfortunately we can't attack the Persian units this turn because they are in Babylonian territory and we don't have open borders with Babylon. Otherwise it would be very tempting to try reducing that stack a little (or a lot!) Cyrus wants 35 gold from us for peace - I think the AP vote will be in favour of ending the war anyway and since we can't attack him in Babylonian territory, let's just stay out of his way this turn so we don't lose units and if as I expect the war is ended by that vote at the beginning of the next turn that will be it whether we like it or not for ten turns and we won't have to pay. If by some chance the vote doesn't end the war, hopefully the Persian stack will cross the river into our territory and we'll be able to crunch it next turn and hopefully get gold out of him for peace!

Regarding Hatty, I'm still inclined (having looked at the save now) to say "kill!" At least take Illinois and Alexandria. Maybe we can even get Satsuma while we're getting those other two if we can divert some units that way? Shouldn't take many with only two defenders? Maybe she'll give us Satsuma for peace anyway if we take Illinois and Alexandria?

Attacking Hammy is ho hum. But what can we do? We are so far from any victory and military victories appear to me to be the closest, and that's going to mean attacking Hammy! Wouldn't we just love to get our hands on Babylon huh? Nice! I think though we need a little more navy to take on Babylon - can we wait a few turns and put out some more galleys? Those Babylonian cities are so far apart - we'd take centuries to walk to Babylon fighting for every step.

Basically agree with MP. Thinking we need to try to grab Illinois and Alexandria, give Hattie a chance to gain another tech?

On the western front, pull back to create a kill zone as you have been doing in case peace does not happen. Luring Cyrus into our territory to kill him would be nice, perhaps get something useful from him?

We seem to be running out of options? Soon it may be cats versus Cannons and XBows versus Rifles?

Some further thoughts and observations:

Idea of getting Giza for peace probably bogus, as it would likely become capital after Alex and IL eliminated. However, if we can capture it too, then both Sat and Kag would be protecting us from AP defeat, although Hat’s galley may be carrying a missionary to Sat. (Saw no units put into it, but could have come up from IL without my knowledge.) Also, it’s a hill city that would block Mongol armies.

The three units in Sat have been there for several turns without moving. About 4 turns ago an additional HA appeared and immediately attacked our cross. So, suspect that when another unit appears in Sat, next player can expect action there.

Tempting to build a treb or WE in Thebes after forge, but best choice may be a crossbow, because it could be promoted to double hills and used to quickly advance, block, and keep clear for future troop movement the route to Giza, while we are taking other two cities.

We could go to war with Ham again and attack Cyrus, but that seems foolish on further reflection. Do think we should at least prepare for the unlikely possibility that the resolution will fail or that Cyrus will defy it. (Do the AI ever do that?) Suggest putting a modest mixed stack on the deer forest as sacrifices to eliminate some cats and weaken some Persian units. Don’t let him see our local strength, as those 2CRcats beg to be used and he could come right for Pat.

If we stay out of eastern war, then probably should prepare for a GA. Be particularly useful after we have Lit and can build NE while researching CoL. At same time, we can build the HE every turn in one city or another before completing it, thereby hoarding some gold.

Have saved the GG because we had no need for a supermedic, and it occurred to me that it would be well placed in the city where we build the HE.

Two nice cities.

Cactus Pete said:

Ham sent a caravel to Kagoshima, and I was concerned that another peace vote would be taken and a missionary dropped of, but didn’t happen.

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Not sure what you mean by this.

Cactus Pete said:

Eliz is now running Free Market

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We should carry on in Egypt. It would be nice to have Alex and Giza before next vote, hoping for no further spread of Buddhism.

Still think we should take Hammus 2 cities on the island, each will bring us 13+ extra gold.

zamint3 said:

Not sure what you mean by this. Thought Ham might have had a missionary aboard his caravel ready to drop off in Kag if a peace treaty with Toku was voted on through the AP. Suppose Open Borders would have also been necessary, but that could have happened too. Does that clear it up, Z?

Still think we should take Hammus 2 cities on the island, each will bring us 13+ extra gold.

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I have been building boats in Pat and thinking about how to use them. Problem with island cities is that they are on hills. What will it take to take them, and is it worth it, considering costs of hammers expended and war weariness?

Cactus Pete said:

Thought Ham might have had a missionary aboard his caravel ready to drop off in Kag if a peace treaty with Toku was voted on through the AP. Suppose Open Borders would have also been necessary, but that could have happened too. Does that clear it up, Z?

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Yes - thank you!
Btw what happened to our missionary?

Only one of the cities on the island is on a hill, and it is very lightly defended.

Not sure about defense in the other city, but our caravel could find out soon.

zamint3 said:

Yes - thank you!
Btw what happened to our missionary? He failed to spread Hindu to Heliopolis (and guess I failed to inform team).

Only one of the cities on the island is on a hill, and it is very lightly defended.
Not sure about defense in the other city, but our caravel could find out soon.

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At one point I noted two lb in one city and a knight and a mace in the other, but galley has been there and gone since that observation. In any event, don't you think Ham would immediately whip a lb in any city we threaten?

Here is official save from Central: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Xteam_SG015_AD1140_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

So, Am I up next? If so I will put togather a plan of attack (lit) and post either tonight or tomorrow some time.

I am in favor of taking the island cities off of Hammy. I suppose 2 Pikes can take the city defended by the knight from a boat before Hammy get a chance to whip anything.

I have not seen the file yet so can not say anything sensible yet.

CP, some hard going!

Claimed some more of Hattie's cities for us.

Roster:
Htadus - UP
zamint3 - On Deck
leif
Undecided
Mad Professor
Cactus Pete -
The-Hawk - traveling

Rough week this week, was not able to get online once. However, I've caught up on reading and will look at the save tomorrow.

Cactus Pete said:

Maneuver carefully in Egypt (well, not carefully enough – kill Persian scout)

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I blame the scout, how foolish to move into a tile next to a warmonger. Like putting your hand in the tiger's mouth!

Got it. Tough going but good progress CP.

Here is the basic plan.

Egypt:
When Alexandria (next target) falls Illinois will be the new capital. As CP stated, we should proceed with the capture of these far cities and leave Satsuma to Egypt. So the army will be split and attack both Alexandria and Illinois.

Western Front:
I will move a large stack on to the Deer tile leaving only 7 units (include a Pike) in Patal. If the AP peace does not materialize then any attack they do will be minimized on that deer forest. If they move in they will be eliminated.

Economy:
I proposed that we set science to 30% and build science in couple of cities to complete CoL in 3 turns. This is very crucial. We will run out gold but that can be remedied by building wealth when needed. And we will be taking cities too. Then build CH's all over the universe and switch to CSystem. Suggest FP in Helipolis. If the units go on strike, it is 1 unit a turn.

Espy:
Atleast for the moment, we need to switch esp points to Toku or Hats. Toku is prefferd. We can start stealing a tech or 2. Then realocate to Elizagawa as needed.

Worker Action:
No more cottages. Farms, Mines, Workshops and Watermills only. Going to set up cities for hammer economy.

Hammy:
Not going for the Island cities. They are not developed and demand splitting the forces. When possible, we are going after continental developed cities. I will defy peace resolutions. It should affect a few cites and they will be whipped to nothing.

Liberalism
. Sorry.

BTW, look like Elizabeth is heading for a culture VC. Good, that means smaller forces when we go knocking on the door.

please comment.

Htadus said:

Got it. Here is the basic plan.

Egypt:
When Alexandria (next target) falls Illinois will be the new capital. As CP stated, we should proceed with the capture of these far cities and leave Satsuma to Egypt. So the army will be split and attack both Alexandria and Illinois. And plan for Giza?

Western Front:
I will move a large stack on to the Deer tile leaving only 7 units (include a Pike) in Patal. If the AP peace does not materialize then any attack they do will be minimized on that deer forest. Question this. If Cyrus chooses to utilize most of his cats against the deer tile, won't he will be able to kill numerous units. We may indeed end up winning the battle in the end but be in poor shape on the eastern front. On the other hand, if we make him pay to take the tile, then he will have it but be seriously weakened and not be in a position to do us much further harm; and, like you say: If they move in they will be eliminated.

Economy:
I proposed that we set science to 30% and build science in couple of cities to complete CoL in 3 turns. This is very crucial. Don't follow why CoL is crucial quickly. What good does it do us if we stay in war and in Slavery and Police State. We would need to stay in Slavery for a while and build units, not CHs, if we are going to make any attempt against Ham. Also, Caste won't do us great good until we have gotten out of war weariness and grown cities (perhaps under Representation). We will run out gold but that can be remedied by building wealth when needed. And we will be taking cities too. Concur that we probably could get away with expending the gold. Then build CH's all over the universe and switch to CSystem. What is CSystem? We can't research CS and still bulb Astro, which it certainly looks like we need. Suggest FP in Helipolis. If the units go on strike, it is 1 unit a turn.

Espy:
Atleast for the moment, we need to switch esp points to Toku or Hats. Toku is prefferd. We can start stealing a tech or 2. Then realocate to Elizagawa as needed. Interesting. Are you confident this will work, and what tech(s) do you have in mind?

Worker Action:
No more cottages. Farms, Mines, Workshops and Watermills only. Going to set up cities for hammer economy. Suggest you also set them up for an eventual GA, which is not inconsistent.

Hammy:
Not going for the Island cities. They are not developed and demand splitting the forces. Think Z would argue that the extra trade route return would be significant. Are you disagreeing with that anaysis? When possible, we are going after continental developed cities. Question is whether it is possible, and, if so, how quickly. I will defy peace resolutions. It should affect a few cites and they will be whipped to nothing. Okay, but exactly how are you going to attack Ham?

Liberalism
. Sorry.

BTW, look like Elizabeth is heading for a culture VC. Good, that means smaller forces when we go knocking on the door.

please comment.

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We are ahead of most of the teams, so can take time to figure out the best plan.

Cactus Pete said:

Hammy:
Not going for the Island cities. They are not developed and demand splitting the forces. Think Z would argue that the extra trade route return would be significant. Are you disagreeing with that anaysis?

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The problem with Z's analysis that I can see is that these cities would also have colony maintenance since they are on a different continent from our capital - they might be quite expensive to maintain. Perhaps the gain would be less than Z is suggesting? I don't know the numbers though.

CP;

Survivors of Alexand and Ilinois will be combined for Geza assult.

If Persians attack the deer tile accross water and into a forest, then our losses will be minimum as long as the collateral is split amung many units. Cats can not kill and has CR2 promos mainly. Only the 3 HA will be able to do any real harm. All others will be dead meat.

We can go in and out of C(ast)System since we are spiritual. We need CH for 3 reasons.

1. 10 gpt maintanance in the new cities can be dropped to 5 gpt.
2. Increased esp with CH's and
3. Can build FP to minimize maint.

ESP: I played MadScientists Julian Assange roleplaying game. Once we get some CH's going we can do some shocking tech stealing. As for now, we should split between the two Ai and steal Monarchy from Toku and Vassalage from Hammy. We need to infect the two cities with Hindu for best affect.

Yes, about GA. Most hammer economy cities with food tiles are great GP farms. Toku's old capital is awsome for this.

I intend to use cats with Collateral 2 and WE for Eastern front to kill off the stack. And there may be a few whips. I need to look at it closer.

CP and MP:

There are 2 cities on the island. It will give us only 4 trade routes of only 2gpt. The colony cost is 4 gpt for 2 cities on that land mass. It is not much of a gain. Taking Hammies productive cities will truly advance us. Now once we get that GLH those island cities will give us 8 routes total.

Htadus said:

There are 2 cities on the island. It will give us only 4 trade routes of only 2gpt. The colony cost is 4 gpt for 2 cities on that land mass.

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Each of those 2 cities will bring an extra +1gpt in each of our cities on the mainland. With the 3 Egyptian cities to be ours soon, that's +31gpt on the mainland. (Delhi already has a +2gpt trade route with Kagosima )

It'll take a long time before we have a city of any value on Hammus mainland!

Seems to me we need to restart our research. I can't see us winning Dom without better units.

Htadus said:

I proposed that we set science to 30% and build science in couple of cities to complete CoL in 3 turns.

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Building wealth and running a higher slider % is better than building science.

Also, I would be careful about depleating all our cash. When Helio and Elephantine come out of anarchy we are going to get whacked with maintenance.

I agree CoL is a must. I would whip CHs in most cities. I believe burning some population will reduce our civics cost as well.

Thebes and Kyoto both have Academies. I think we should build/whip a library in each and then run 2 scientist. It hurts to delay building units in Thebes with its military specialists, but I think we need to make use of the academy.

/EDIT:

CP said:

We would need to stay in Slavery for a while and build units, not CHs, if we are going to make any attempt against Ham.

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The problem is we are in such deep deficit that we can't build units everywhere (need to build wealth). CH's should add ~45 gpt, that equates to 45 more hammers going to units instead of covering maintenance.

zamint3 said:

Each of those 2 cities will bring an extra +1gpt in each of our cities on the mainland. With the 3 Egyptian cities to be ours soon, that's +31gpt on the mainland. (Delhi already has a +2gpt trade route with Kagosima )
Z, didn't that bug get fixed. If not, then I agee about the gain
It'll take a long time before we have a city of any value on Hammus mainland!

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Maybe not that long after killing Hammies stack of Doom. I have a feeling MP and CP did some of that. Hammy do not have that many cities, 6 on conti and 2 away. He is not going to last.

The-Hawk said:

Seems to me we need to restart our research. I can't see us winning Dom without better units. I agree. That is why we need to steal our way to knights.

Building wealth and running a higher slider % is better than building science.
I agree

Also, I would be careful about depleating all our cash. When Helio and Elephantine come out of anarchy we are going to get whacked with maintenance.Yes, it is bad and may become worst but we should not hold back, get the CH asap should be our goal.

I agree CoL is a must. I would whip CHs in most cities. I believe burning some population will reduce our civics cost as well.Agree

Thebes and Kyoto both have Academies. I think we should build/whip a library in each and then run 2 scientist. It hurts to delay building units in Thebes with its military specialists, but I think we need to make use of the academy.Absolutely agree.

/EDIT:



The problem is we are in such deep deficit that we can't build units everywhere (need to build wealth). CH's should add ~45 gpt, that equates to 45 more hammers going to units instead of covering maintenance.

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I second that statement. I intend to build Libs run specialists in those 2 cities you identified. I am quite sure that we will be all right economically soon.

The-Hawk said:

Seems to me we need to restart our research. I can't see us winning Dom without better units.

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You got that right! But we can't afford to take a break from the warfare either, because while we do, we'll still get behind.

If we manage to restart our economy and maintain full ahead warfare at the same time, you can be sure I'll be taking notes. Man I would have so loved to have done that in a few games I've played...! I like situations like this - I get to learn something.

zamint3 said:

Each of those 2 cities will bring an extra +1gpt in each of our cities on the mainland. With the 3 Egyptian cities to be ours soon, that's +31gpt on the mainland. (Delhi already has a +2gpt trade route with Kagosima )

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I'm a little in the dark here. How does this work?