SGOTM 15 - Xteam

The-Hawk · Apr 22, 2012

Took a closer look at the save. With the large stack we have up near Hams, I can understand the desire to carry war to him asap. Our units are costing almost as much we would save in maintenance from CHs, so we might as well put them to use. However, I do like the idea of a limited war. The key to Civ warfare is to grind the AI's stack, then kick his ass when he is down. If we chew up a pile of our units killing his stack, then only to take 2-3 cities, he will simply rebuild his army. Why start an expensive war if we plan to let him up off the mat?

So here is the problem. In a normal game, I would fund my deficit war by city razing. However, in this game, we can't raze. Every city we take must be kept, adding to our maintenance. Good cities will break even, but crap cities will be a drain.

Hatty's cities will add about 20 in maintenance each. Our 3 target cities are all commmerce poor, but have good prod. If we build wealth in them, they might just break even. So I am all for carrying on the war with Hatty (leaving her alive in Satsuma as AP insurance).

Hams cities are much crappier. I'm guessing his closer cities will add 15 maintenance each, the further ones 20. Even building wealth, Opis, Borsippa, and the two island cities will lose 5-10 gpt each (ignoring the trade route impact). Dur-Kur is good, the real prize is Babylon. Can we assume there are a couple of cities tucked in between Borsippa and Dur-Kur? If so, we will need to capture all of them on our march to Babylon, unless we want to try a very, very risky naval attack.

My swaggy math:

Current deficit: -25
per Z, adding foreign trade: +30
Add 8 Hams cities: -40
GLH if we get Babylon: +35?

Total deficit: 0, but we will be building wealth in 75% of our cities.

Other factors that will impact the economy:

- We are still growing pop, this will increase maintenance and civic upkeep (unless we whip).
- Once we move our stack into Ham's land, we will pick up more unit supply cost.
- As we build more units, our unit upkeep cost will increase.
- As we lose units to Ham, our unit upkeep cost will decrease.

Bottom line for me:
- Continue war on Hatty until she is down to one city.
- If we are going to war with Hams, then no half measures. Whip units everywhere (which will help our economy), then go for Babylon. I would not attack the island first, they are not a threat to build units. We can pick them up later with a second wave. Our plan should be kill his stack then head straight into his production core so he can't replenish his army.
- If we are able to accumulate a decent amount of gold from captured cities, then we can research CoL. This will allow us to eventually whip CHs in the distant captured cities (although we might need to whip units in Ham's cities first to sustain the attack).

One minor note, looks like a couple of cities are about to grow to unhappiness. Unless we plan to whip, we should stop growth in them.

Cactus Pete · Apr 22, 2012

Basically in agreement with Hawk's analysis or view it as a very close call on nearly all points. Am concerned by this -- "Our plan should be kill his stack then head straight into his production core so he can't replenish his army." -- not because I don't agree with it but because it is not at all clear how to kill his stack without being killed.

"Can we assume there are a couple of cities tucked in between Borsippa and Dur-Kur?"
Roughly five turns ago when our now-deceased spy went through, there was no city in between. This surprised me and I should have mentioned it. However, they could well be there by the time our forces arrive.

Cactus Pete · Apr 23, 2012

Couple of things I may have forgotten to mention:

The next turn after a previous spy went into Mongolia, he was killed, so would recommend against our extant eastern spy exploring there as long as he is useful in Egypt (and perhaps he should be saved for tech stealing in Kag).

Japan will accept any city we have, or presumably any that we might acquire, as a gift, so a non-Buddhist Bab city that we don't want could be taken and then gifted.

Undecided · Apr 23, 2012

At first i was in favour of getting CoL as soon as possible because of courthouses, but after thinking about it again, i'd like to propose a slightly different overall course of action.

CoL would open up CS, but CS would open up the paper-bulb line if i'm not mistaken, so even if we tech CoL we couldn't get a added benefit by ripping Hatshe or Hammy off of 1200 beakers (if they even teched it themselves). But we have to tech CoL at some point because both our war targets can't trade it.

The war against cyrus will stop in the IBT and our peace treaty with hammy can be canceled at our will giving us initiative in the west. Our stack in the east has to heal for 2 turns before moving towards alexandria.

Plan:
Next turn switch every city except memphis and Pi-R to wealth (Pi-R works the plains farm instead of the rice tile for 1t to finish the stable a turn earlier, then also wealth) for 2 turns.
This gives us ~+80 gpt. On the following turn, redeclare on hammy, slider to 90% science, run 2 scientists in every city with a library to 1t-research Literature. After that start the HE in pat and Lib->NE in kyoto. Rest of the cities back to units or wealth depending on the needs of our empire.
Finish hatty off completely. We are in no danger with regards to the AP. We can gift satsuma to toku to increase his survivability in case someone launches a naval attack. Keeping hatty alive in satsuma only brings 16 unhappy citizens. No real advantages.
After Hatty is killed we fire up our GA. Teching to CoL and whip courthouses in former egypt.

For the western front, i'm against taking the island cities for now. Hammy just got astro if i'm not mistaken, so there is a considerable risk. Let's focus everything on getting to his core cities. We might get one of his island cities if we have to make a temporary peace treaty, because i don't think we'll be able to get him in one round.

We'll get another GG very soon, therefore settling one and attaching one as a medic seems the way to go.

Anyway, great discussion going on right now. Figured there is no harm in throwing out another slightly different plan as food for thought.

Cactus Pete · Apr 23, 2012

We will be able to get Lit from Hat (and not much else) for peace, so question whether we want to research it. CoL, on the other hand, we are going to have to research ourselves, and we do need it to build courthouses in Egypt, especially if we switch to OR and spread Hindu there. Rather put our research dollars there.

Idea of taking and gifting Sat is interesting. Like getting rid of the unhappiness, but it would come at a price. The AI would have only one civ but with two cities where it could spread Buddhism. That would seem to increase our risk significantly.

leif erikson · Apr 23, 2012

Cactus Pete said:
We will be able to get Lit from Hat (and not much else) for peace, so question whether we want to research it. CoL, on the other hand, we are going to have to research ourselves, and we do need it to build courthouses in Egypt, especially if we switch to OR and spread Hindu there. Rather put our research dollars there.

Yes, but it would be nice to get HE built. :thumbsup:

Cactus Pete said:
Idea of taking and gifting Sat is interesting. Like getting rid of the unhappiness, but it would come at a price. The AI would have only one civ but with two cities where it could spread Buddhism. That would seem to increase our risk significantly.

As long as the team remains Lizzie's opponent in the AP vote, we should not have to worry, should we?

Thinking Hawk's idea of going all out for Hammu's territory is on the mark. If we do this, will need all our cash to keep our armies afloat?

zamint3 · Apr 23, 2012

Undecided said:
Plan:
Next turn switch every city except memphis and Pi-R to wealth (Pi-R works the plains farm instead of the rice tile for 1t to finish the stable a turn earlier, then also wealth) for 2 turns.
This gives us ~+80 gpt. On the following turn, redeclare on hammy, slider to 90% science, run 2 scientists in every city with a library to 1t-research Literature. After that start the HE in pat and Lib->NE in kyoto. Rest of the cities back to units or wealth depending on the needs of our empire.

Not a bad idea. :goodjob:

So basically you want to shut down production for 2 turns to get earlier HE (and NE)!?

I would prefer to have Lit for free in a peace treaty with Hatze, and you know what I would prefer to build in Pat.

Agree that AP victory is not problem at the moment, so I don't mind eliminating Hatze.

The-Hawk said:
Can we assume there are a couple of cities tucked in between Borsippa and Dur-Kur?

I think they are behind the mountains east of his northern city Akkad. :crazyeye:

leif erikson · Apr 23, 2012

zamint3 said:
Not a bad idea.

So basically you want to shut down production for 2 turns to get earlier HE (and NE)!?

Only problem with this is timing. If we are going all out to attack Hammu, and the AP vote just occurred, don't we need as many turns at war with Hammu until the next vote? Although we really should have some Horse Archers and War Elephants in the stack before attacking, no?
Do we simply defy the AP vote if it is for peace with Hammu? That'll hurt, iirc. :eek:

zamint3 said:
I think they are behind the mountains east of his northern city Akkad.

Agree.

Undecided · Apr 23, 2012

Cactus Pete said:
We will be able to get Lit from Hat (and not much else) for peace, so question whether we want to research it. CoL, on the other hand, we are going to have to research ourselves, and we do need it to build courthouses in Egypt, especially if we switch to OR and spread Hindu there. Rather put our research dollars there. This is my problem, the best thing for us is the quickest elimination of hatshes cities. I'd really like to end the war without another 10 turn peace treaty. (This might be a bit optimistic though) Thing with CoL is, we'll be whipping our empire in the next couple turns, so CHs won't help us that much in the next turns. This also means that there isn't any time for caste. Lit on the other hand, is reasearched much quicker, grants us basically another production city with HE, and the possibility to set up for a quick astro, with only one city. The best time for CoL, and our GA, is when egypt is coming out of revolt, and the GA will help us to tech it faster when we really need it.

Idea of taking and gifting Sat is interesting. Like getting rid of the unhappiness, but it would come at a price. The AI would have only one civ but with two cities where it could spread Buddhism. That would seem to increase our risk significantly.

Agree that it's not perfect, but there are some options to decrease the risk. We have the possibility to spread two other religions to tokus cities. This increases the successful spread of more religions, especially after the third, significantly. Also, as leif mentioned, we're currently pretty safe from a AP-defeat thanks to man/huay.

@zamint
That's the price i'd pay.

HE will give us the hammers we lost back in a reasonable time frame, we'll be well prepared to get to astro and we can't make any real progress on both fronts for the next 2 or 3 turns. I say if we going to do that, then we should do it now.

@ leif
With regards to timing: the best time to do this would've been 2 turns before a resolution, but we just missed this point for now. But we don't have to declare on Hammy in two turns, it's on us to cancel the peace deal and really a seperate issue because we'll get hit with resolutions at some point. And it will screw us most likely and we can do nothing against it. This is a element, that could be discussed on its own, because it has nothing to do with getting literature in my opinion.

Hopefully i could make a bit more sense this time. I know the idea is a bit crazy, but this is also a rather crazy game.

Cactus Pete · Apr 23, 2012

Originally Posted by Cactus Pete
We will be able to get Lit from Hat (and not much else) for peace, so question whether we want to research it. CoL, on the other hand, we are going to have to research ourselves, and we do need it to build courthouses in Egypt, especially if we switch to OR and spread Hindu there. Rather put our research dollars there. This is my problem, the best thing for us is the quickest elimination of hatshes cities. I'd really like to end the war without another 10 turn peace treaty. (This might be a bit optimistic though) Still think it's more efficient to get Lit for peace, but if we do research Lit, then that is certainly to be seriously considered. Thing with CoL is, we'll be whipping our empire in the next couple turns, so CHs won't help us that much in the next turns. Not suggesting that we rush research for CoL, just that we try to get it done in time to be able to build CHs in Egypt when we want to. [/COLOR] This also means that there isn't any time for caste. Agree, Caste won't be very useful soon -- need to use the whip in our western cities for units and later for CHs in the east, then will need to grow them before Caste would be useful. Lit on the other hand, is reasearched much quicker, grants us basically another production city with HE, and the possibility to set up for a quick astro, with only one city. Are you referencing a city with the NE? If so, what city are you proposing? The best time for CoL, and our GA, is when egypt is coming out of revolt, and the GA will help us to tech it faster when we really need it. Could work out like that.

Htadus · Apr 24, 2012

I do not think I am ready to progrees this game. First, let me see if I understand what is being discussed.

We do not want to give 10 turn peace to Hammy and get Lit and Medi.
We want to eliminate him completely.
Therefore we should tech Lit now to build HE and NE.

Not a bad plan in general but the reason it is preferable is not that good; basically to avoid a few unhappy faces which we would happily whip off for CH's without feeling a bit sad or bad. But do we really want to spend our limited commerce on something we can extort easily. I think that is not progressive move let alone a lateral move. It defeats the whole ponty stick tech process.

There are other ideas that need discussion.

Why would we want to whip units during a GA? Why have a GA if we dont have pop to get the most out of it? Are we talking about after the GA?
Wouldn't the capital be the better place for the NE instead of Kyoto?
Why build HE in Patali? Patal has max base hammers of 24, 3 useless and 3 unusable tiles and limited by food. Thebes has 25 base as is right now, every tile, if it ever get that big, is useful, has 2 GG residing, plenty of food and Hindu. Wouldn't that be better?
Why do we want to give cities to Toku? To save cost because we can not build CH's? Also give 2 or more opportunites for RNG to spread Buddhism?
We should completely stop being concerned about AP forced Peace when we do not want it. We defy and use the Whip because we do not have a choice if we are going to play a war game. Otherwise, we need to revisit a culture game.

Also I think we need to rethink Astro. It is not astro that is going to hold us back. Lack of miltechs. So what if we can get to AI fast if we are going to land trebs and WE to assult rifles and Cavs. So in order to get better mil techs, we need our economy fixed so we can build better units and pay the maintanance on the units we can build fast.

So here is a revised suggestion:
Stay with CoL at 0%.
Run 2 Scientists where there are libs.
Complete the current production in capital and Thebes. Follow thebes with Mil buildings.
Switch Kyoto to Lib and lets use the Academy power with 2 scientists.
Continue war with Hats in the mean while.

Then there is this Option A:
There are several cities that berely contibute building wealth. Lets whip WE there. Say 6 total in 4 turns.
Once we have 6 WE in west and we are not in war with Persia. Move in to Babilonia on to the tile the persians are on right now. Encounter the Persian stack there with all we have. Progress to claim GLH.
This may cause us some units to go in to strikes but may not if we get enough capture gold. But are we willing to take the risk.

Or there is This option B:
Leave Hammy alone.
Switch to CS and run scientists/merchants in all the cities that are not doing any good for 5 or more turns and switch back to slavary to whip.
oh yeah..we can run the GA to some effect during this time. I doubt we can get even 1additional GS out of it.

BTW 2 more things:
Hammies cities will likely have many useful buildings like Forges, Markets, CH's and LH. So as a result, they may be already better than our cities.
Astro is not a big problem. We can build a Fort 2SW of Vijay and safely ferry units to the island. We may loose a few galleys but not units with a little planning.

Cactus Pete · Apr 24, 2012

Htadus said:
We do not want to give 10 turn peace to Hammy and get Lit and Medi.

We want to eliminate him completely.

Therefore we should tech Lit now to build HE and NE.

Not a bad plan in general but the reason it is preferable is not that good; basically to avoid a few unhappy faces which we would happily whip off for CH's without feeling a bit sad or bad. But do we really want to spend our limited commerce on something we can extort easily. I think that is not progressive move let alone a lateral move. It defeats the whole ponty stick tech process. Concur.

There are other ideas that need discussion.

Why would we want to whip units during a GA? Why have a GA if we dont have pop to get the most out of it? Are we talking about after the GA? The GA needs to be delayed if we are going to war and going to whip CHs not too long afterwards.

Why do we want to give cities to Toku? To save cost because we can not build CH's? To save the maintence costs while building a CH and the remaining maintenance after we have built it, plus we won't have to defend it. Concur, it only makes sense for a really bad city, presumably one we have had to take in order to get to a really good one. Also give 2 or more opportunites for RNG to spread Buddhism? Yes.

We should completely stop being concerned about AP forced Peace when we do not want it. We defy and use the Whip because we do not have a choice if we are going to play a war game. Concur. Otherwise, we need to revisit a culture game.

Also I think we need to rethink Astro. It is not astro that is going to hold us back. Lack of miltechs. So what if we can get to AI fast if we are going to land trebs and WE to assult rifles and Cavs. Of course, but we are going to need Astro also, and it is most easily bulbable, so we should get it that way and use research and other methods (peace negotiations, spies, whatever) for military techs. So in order to get better mil techs, we need our economy fixed so we can build better units and pay the maintanance on the units we can build fast.

So here is a revised suggestion:
Stay with CoL at 0%.
Run 2 Scientists where there are libs.
Complete the current production in capital and Thebes. Follow thebes with Mil buildings. Are you thinking of attacking the Mongols? By the time the forge and barracks and stables could be built in Thebes, the Egyptian war should be about over. Wouldn't it be better to build a few needed units now in Thebes after the forge and then the military buildings or perhaps a CH?
Switch Kyoto to Lib and lets use the Academy power with 2 scientists.
Continue war with Hats in the mean while.

Then there is this Option A:
There are several cities that berely contibute building wealth. Lets whip WE there. Say 6 total in 4 turns.
Once we have 6 WE in west and we are not in war with Persia. Move in to Babilonia on to the tile the persians are on right now. Encounter the Persian stack there (doubt it will hang around while we are building WEs) with all we have. You want to fight both Ham and Cyrus simultaneously? Progress to claim GLH.
This may cause us some units to go in to strikes but may not if we get enough capture gold. But are we willing to take the risk.

Or there is This option B:
Leave Hammy alone.
Switch to CS and run scientists/merchants in all the cities that are not doing any good for 5 or more turns and switch back to slavary to whip.
oh yeah..we can run the GA to some effect during this time. I doubt we can get even 1additional GS out of it. Rather take a risk.

BTW 2 more things:
Hammies cities will likely have many useful buildings like Forges, Markets, CH's and LH. So as a result, they may be already better than our cities.
Astro is not a big problem. We can build a Fort 2SW of Vijay and safely ferry units to the island. We may loose a few galleys but not units with a little planning.

Clever, but do we want to attack the island hill cities?

Mad Professor · Apr 24, 2012

Htadus said:
Not a bad plan in general but the reason it is preferable is not that good; basically to avoid a few unhappy faces which we would happily whip off for CH's without feeling a bit sad or bad. But do we really want to spend our limited commerce on something we can extort easily. I think that is not progressive move let alone a lateral move. It defeats the whole ponty stick tech process.

I agree here. It looks to me like pointy stick teching is our best method, so let's not try teching ourselves something we can get with a pointy stick. There are few enough that we can get that way with t no tech brokering option, so let's get what we can that way and if we can manipulate our economy to find a few beakers, let's use them on something we're going to have to tech ourselves anyway - like CoL.

Htadus said:
We should completely stop being concerned about AP forced Peace when we do not want it. We defy and use the Whip because we do not have a choice if we are going to play a war game. Otherwise, we need to revisit a culture game.

Again, I think this is good point. We should major on what we can control (there's precious little of that!) and not worry too much about what we can't control. We can't control what votes the AP puts forward, nor do we have the voting power in the AP at the moment to make a significant influence on the results of those votes. If there is no vote to end wars we want to continue, let's be thankful for our luck and make the most of it. If there are votes we have to defy then lets just defy them and use the whip as necessary. I don't think we can accommodate the AP vote possibilities well into any kind of plan.

Htadus said:
Also I think we need to rethink Astro. It is not astro that is going to hold us back. Lack of miltechs. So what if we can get to AI fast if we are going to land trebs and WE to assult rifles and Cavs. So in order to get better mil techs, we need our economy fixed so we can build better units and pay the maintanance on the units we can build fast.

Unfortunately I think we're going to need both astro and more military techs. Astro not only allows us to land fast, but it allows us to use boats that are much less likely to get sunk by a caravel than a galley is!

Htadus said:
Or there is This option B:
Leave Hammy alone.
Switch to CS and run scientists/merchants in all the cities that are not doing any good for 5 or more turns and switch back to slavary to whip.
oh yeah..we can run the GA to some effect during this time. I doubt we can get even 1additional GS out of it.

I'm not fond of plans that slow down our war effort at the moment. We can delay attacking Hammy for a few turns perhaps, but not long. If are going to win this game, Hammy is going to have to go down. I don't see another way to do it. The soonest we can manage it, the better.

Htadus said:
BTW 2 more things:
Hammies cities will likely have many useful buildings like Forges, Markets, CH's and LH. So as a result, they may be already better than our cities.

All the more reason to get hold of them sooner (and instruct the soldiers NOT to burn down the forges when they take the cities!) :rolleyes:

leif erikson · Apr 24, 2012

Htadus said:
Not a bad plan in general but the reason it is preferable is not that good; basically to avoid a few unhappy faces which we would happily whip off for CH's without feeling a bit sad or bad. But do we really want to spend our limited commerce on something we can extort easily. I think that is not progressive move let alone a lateral move. It defeats the whole ponty stick tech process.

Agree with this.

Htadus said:
Why would we want to whip units during a GA? Why have a GA if we dont have pop to get the most out of it? Are we talking about after the GA?

Golden Age will need to be delayed at least until Egypt war is completed.

Htadus said:
Why build HE in Patali? Patal has max base hammers of 24, 3 useless and 3 unusable tiles and limited by food. Thebes has 25 base as is right now, every tile, if it ever get that big, is useful, has 2 GG residing, plenty of food and Hindu. Wouldn't that be better?

Yes, as long as you no longer need units to finish Egypt. With two GG, whipping troops out of Thebes will provide you with valuable units to complete the campaign wouldn't it?

Htadus said:
Why do we want to give cities to Toku? To save cost because we can not build CH's? Also give 2 or more opportunites for RNG to spread Buddhism?

Yes, agree with this. The idea to do this to save maintenance is interesting, but it does increase exposure to Buddhist conversion of Toku.

Htadus said:
We should completely stop being concerned about AP forced Peace when we do not want it. We defy and use the Whip because we do not have a choice if we are going to play a war game. Otherwise, we need to revisit a culture game.

Agreed.

Htadus said:
Also I think we need to rethink Astro. It is not astro that is going to hold us back. Lack of miltechs. So what if we can get to AI fast if we are going to land trebs and WE to assult rifles and Cavs. So in order to get better mil techs, we need our economy fixed so we can build better units and pay the maintanance on the units we can build fast.

Think we are going to need Astro. Agree with CP, try to get military techs via pointy stick for the short term.

Htadus said:
Stay with CoL at 0%.
Run 2 Scientists where there are libs.

May find you will have to whip some of them away to handle military needs, but agree in principle.

Htadus said:
Complete the current production in capital and Thebes. Follow thebes with Mil buildings.
Switch Kyoto to Lib and lets use the Academy power with 2 scientists.
Continue war with Hats in the mean while.

See above, on Thebes. Same with Kyoto, as long as we do not need the units to defeat Hatse or delay the war with Hammu.

Htadus said:
There are several cities that berely contibute building wealth. Lets whip WE there. Say 6 total in 4 turns.

Yes, maybe a Horse Archer or two to use as flank attack on enemy cat stacks, Hammu had a bunch.

Htadus said:
Once we have 6 WE in west and we are not in war with Persia. Move in to Babilonia on to the tile the persians are on right now. Encounter the Persian stack there with all we have. Progress to claim GLH.
This may cause us some units to go in to strikes but may not if we get enough capture gold. But are we willing to take the risk.

Did you mean Babylonia's stack? Then yes, we will need to attack Hammu and progress to his capital.

Htadus said:
Astro is not a big problem. We can build a Fort 2SW of Vijay and safely ferry units to the island. We may loose a few galleys but not units with a little planning.

We may need to do this before we get Astro, but think Astro is necessary to ultimate success.

Htadus · Apr 24, 2012

CP, yes I am talking about starting Hammy front, but not untill we have about 6 WE.

I do not think we should DoW Gangis untill we have a good idea of what is going on there, but he may come after us on his own. We will deal with it as it happens.

MP, do you think the soldiers will listen and not burn forges

.

Ok with keeping the option to bulb Astro. So no Meditation for us then to hide philo.

So war it is. Here is a build order (Going by memory here):

Capital: Finish Market and slow build WE follwed by HA. Then more of the same but running a few specialists.
Gold City: Switch to WE and whip for 1 next turn and then Finish HA (HA move faster and catch up to WE) and then slow build units while running 2 scientist.
Gem City: fast build WE working all hammers and go back to wealth as needed.
Patali Switch to WE and build 3WE's in the next 4-5 turns with whip.
Cow/marble city: Switch to WE and whip next turn, repeat for another WE.
1st Captured Jap City: Switch to WE and whip next turn, repeat for another WE.
Kyoto: Switch to Lib, whip next turn and hire 2 scientist. Build Stable and slow build WE.
Thebes need to prep for production and not be whipped. I can micro the forge to comple in 2 turns and grow in 4. Might be able to do both in 3 turns. Then rax and units with 7 exp.
Hammer city N of Kyoto 1 WE and back to wealth if needed.
Two low hammer cities. Each build WE for Hatty and HA for Hammy using the whip.
Newly captured coastal Hatty city: Switch build to caraval. Whip immidiately when out of revolt.

So based on this build schedule, we need to capture Alexandria within 4-5 turns, Giza and Illinois before total of 10 turns from now to avoid strikes. That is going to be tough but possible. Also we should capture the closest Hammy city on 3rd turn of the Babilon war.

BTW I hate unit supply cost.

All Esp points to Toku.

BTW there is a tile 6W and 1S of GIza that if we sound a city there, might give us galley access to England. :scan:

Also is there any reason we should not build a charriot somewhere to use the GG with instead of a XB?

Mad Professor · Apr 24, 2012

Htadus said:
MP, do you think the soldiers will listen and not burn forges.

It comes down to what the RNG does huh?

Htadus said:
BTW I hate unit supply cost.

Hammy might help us out there after we declare on him! :eek:

Cactus Pete · Apr 24, 2012

Htadus said:
CP, yes I am talking about starting Hammy front, but not untill we have about 6 WE. You also mentioned destroying the Persians. Please clarify.

I do not think we should DoW Gangis untill we have a good idea of what is going on there, but he may come after us on his own. We will deal with it as it happens. Okay.

Ok with keeping the option to bulb Astro. So no Meditation (concur) for us then to hide philo.

So based on this build schedule, we need to capture Alexandria within 4-5 turns, Giza and Illinois before total of 10 turns from now to avoid strikes. That is going to be tough but possible. Also we should capture the closest Hammy city on 3rd turn of the Babilon war. Is the plan just to advance our whole stack, take whatever is thrown at us, and continue to advance?

Also is there any reason we should not build a charriot somewhere to use the GG with instead of a XB?

Okay, but thought we could give cross extra movement with all the GG experience points.

Htadus · Apr 24, 2012

Mad Professor said:
Hammy might help us out there after we declare on him!

for sure.

Cactus Pete said:
Okay, but thought we could give cross extra movement with all the GG experience points.

Persian stack is a classic me blunder. I meant Hammy's stack. Hope we are at peace with Persians by then.

Plan (hope) is to advance, defend, finish survivors, start taking cities and advance, repeat.

My concern with a xbow is that it will defend earlier than a weaker charriot and the chariot will have 2 movement naturally. The use of a two movement non mounted unit is for defence against Pikes to protect mounted with right type of promos. But we are going to create a super medic who is will defend poorly.

leif erikson · Apr 24, 2012

Sounds as though you have it pretty well worked out. :goodjob:

Will gear up for some weird haka, just to please the rng god.

Good Luck and happy hunting. :hammer:

Cactus Pete · Apr 24, 2012

"My concern with a xbow is that it will defend earlier than a weaker charriot and the chariot will have 2 movement naturally. The use of a two movement non mounted unit is for defence against Pikes to protect mounted with right type of promos. But we are going to create a super medic who is will defend poorly." Point well taken.

Suggest sailing caravel south to explore mid-map mountains and possibly create some value for our map.

Urge that you move our units 1N of Pat into the city, just in case peace doesn't happen and Cyrus moves onto deer. If he sees that stack, he is unlikely to further advance toward Pat onto the grass tile killing field.

"Capital: Finish Market and slow build WE follwed by HA. Then more of the same but running a few specialists." Suggest using the stone tile until WE is out.

Still like double-hill cross in Thebes to assure we can get to Giza.

"Hammer city N of Kyoto 1 WE and back to wealth if needed." Not sure what city is referenced here.

"Cow/marble city: Switch to WE and whip next turn, repeat for another WE." Guess you mean Var (no marble). If so, OK.

"1st Captured Jap City: Switch to WE and whip next turn, repeat for another WE." Not sure you want to do this twice.

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