RFC: a few thoughts on certain civs and starting positions

However, I have to take you to task for your characterization of the typical American. How many typical American's do you personally know? What's your definition of a typical American?
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i´d like to give my opinion....

first of all, theres no question, that there´re blockheaded people and open minded ones in every country. concerning the u.s. it´s a bit complicated. they are a super-power, no doubt. but this i think makes "common" americans forget about the rest of the world, due to the american media, which is very much focused on the u.s....
most americans i know (quite a lot), have very little knowlegde of what´s going abroad. in conversation americans seem to me somehow in-between ignorance and arrogance. every white american tells me about where his ancestors are from and that he kind of identifies with his origin, rather than with the u.s.... this again maybe caused by the lack of cultural identity.
every black american tells me, that blacks are just "entertainers" for the whites and that they don´t really have access to the rest of society. this is a very american problem. consisting of many different origins, officials try to enforce an american identity, what in turn leads to ignoring or even condemning other contries. it´s just the old "that´s us and that´s them" kind of thing...

got me?
 
Dear Ermelinho,

Again, sorry to not address the topic of this thread - RFC starting positions and city locations. America is no different than any other great power during its prime or even during its decline; with regard to America condemning or ignoring other countries.

Also, with regard to blacks, or African-Americans as they are referred to here; they are out of the loop. Far too many of them are not able to interact with mainstream American society and are marginalized as such. However, that is no different than the treatment towards immigrants in France, Netherlands, or Germany - i.e. marginalized for whatever reason, but mostly socio-economic. I cannot speak for the people that you have met, but there are no more European immigrants coming to America (except for the Eastern block and former Soviet Union). All of our ancestors come from somewhere else, and to identify with being Irish, Italian, or anything else other than an American is wrong. But, again, I don't think the interactions you had with Americans could be representative of the typical American.

With regard to being somewhere between ignorant and arrogant, that part is true. But, I believe it to be true of almost every nation on earth - it's called patriotism or is it nationalism, either way it only matters that your correct.

I consider myself to be a typical or average American, but I have a very broad as well as narrow understanding of the world outside of our borders. Also, I would go so far as to say that I know a lot more about German or Russian history than most Germans or Russians do.

America is a very big place and it is far from being homogenous; thus it is difficult to use a steretype or characterization of a typical American. Is a typical Canadian ******ed, or a typical Frenchmen engrossed in cheese and wine? The examples could go on and on. Also, seldom talked about fact is that the average American does not trust the government or the media very much (regardless of leaning left, right, or to the center).
 
dear Koba the Dread

also sorry to not address the topic of this thread - RFC starting positions and city locations.

America is no different than any other great power during its prime or even during its decline;

that´s part of the problem. the world should have learned from mistakes in the past.

... that is no different than the treatment towards immigrants in France, Netherlands, or Germany -

same treatment maybe, but different problem. they´re immigrants.
most of "strongly pigmented" americans aren´t. they are part of the collective u.s. "culture".

I don't think the interactions you had with Americans could be representative of the typical American.

i´m not free from prejudices, but still i think they represent the typical american as well as the typical human. but the combination of being both, typical humans and americans is somehow frightening.

...it is difficult to use a steretype or characterization of a typical American.

to me typical american means to THINK BIG! a society, especially a multiethnic one, can´t function being based on this. i don´t have to explain, do i?

But, I believe it to be true of almost every nation on earth - it's called patriotism or is it nationalism, either way it only matters that your correct.

imho in america patriotism or even nationalism is being imposed upon the people. additionally, america is the only remaining super-power and obviosly wants to stay it. ain´t that alarming?

unfortunately my english is not good enough to discuss this topic exhaustively.
let me finally assure you that i´m not totally anti-americanistic and that i´m deeply grateful for many american achievements and deeds in the past.
but nowadays america is rather a threat to the world than anything else. and that´s a great shame.
it´s an intricate subject and i could give you many facts and examples to corroborate my statements, if i only had the time and the english-skills.
 
America is a cultural centre, absolutely and New York has achieved legendary status...

But that's just right now. People are looking at this from a very short term perspective. America has only been a cultural centre since the end of the war. (Perhaps since the 30s when so many artists had to leave Europe).

For example, it is English sports, football, cricket, and rugby, which dominate the world's stage. Not to mention Scottish golf. And tennis and the modern Olympics from France. Can skateboarding and basketball really compare to those?

English is the world's lingua franca.

The world's premiere broadcasting service? CNN? CBS? No, it's the BBC.

And that's just England's contribution.

What of food? Pizza and pasta are italian contributions. Hamburgers and Hot dogs from Germany (though, fair enough, both have been modified by Americans to their credit). There are very few purely American culinary contributions.

Hollywood films make the most money, to be sure, but ask a true movie buff where the artistic center of cinema is. The answer will more often than not be condensible to Europe.

Literature? Does the American contribution really outweigh that of Shakespeare, Homer and Cervantes (to name a very very very few)?

As for musicals, musicals were invented by the Greeks, not Americans. Americans just figured out how to sell them. (Another argument for giving Americans extra corporate bonuses rather than cultural ones).

And what of museums? America has great ones to be sure, but America's is in no way dominant. The Smithsonian is great, but is it in any way better than the Louvre, the British museum, or the Hermitage?

Americans are great at selling things (though again, that is an English tradition that they tweaked). Most of their cultural 'achievements' are really an extension of that.

Oh and BTW, none of those things I mentioned comes out of LA. When compared to London or Paris or ancient Athens, Rome, or Alexandria, New York holds its own. LA doesn't even belong in the same breath.

This isn't intended to pick a fight. It's just intended to give a worldview, which vicious as it sounds, many, if not most, Americans lack. (America being a large and isolated country, it probably couldn't be otherwise in all fairness).
 
OK Yank bashing over.

Mccash that was a well reasoned post.

I live in the US and although there certainly is a general air of ignorance about the rest of the world there are PLENTY of exceptions. The mainstream is just so heavily bombarded with local news/sports that International issues hardly raise an eyebrow.

I've seen as many posts by neo-eurotrash, as by rednecks who 'don't know anything about nothing' to quote a neighbour of mine.

I also get to see the odd post by fellow countrymen (Australian) to make me wince! And I happen to know we get excellent international news coverage and exposure.

Anyways, back to the game. US getting corporate advantages? Good idea. Getting cultural advantages? hmmmm you'd be surprised how thin that veneer is. While many countries now watch similiar TV, listen to US music etc, the base groundwork of the US is quite different from the rest of the western world. Lot's more religion here, Politics is alot more partisan, more racial tension, also society is much more militarised (and accepting of Military actions by their govt)

I could write an essay but no-one would read it!!


In retrospect I doubt any of the Civ4 civs do justice to their models!!
 
Oh and BTW, none of those things I mentioned comes out of LA. When compared to London or Paris or ancient Athens, Rome, or Alexandria, New York holds its own. LA doesn't even belong in the same breath.

Well, a few paragraphs before, you mention Hollywood. ;-) (and no, Hollywood cannot be considered a separate city than L.A.; it might be that the political boundaries lead to that thought, but political boundaries only reach so far, don't forget social, cultural boundaries - and of course, (human) geographical, the science that treats Cities and their impacts. I won't discuss that point further).

Back to topic, while you are right in many points, you certainly come from a very Anti-American point of view. And I say that as a Swiss, for the record. There is no way in denying American cultural influence. What is culture? Commercial Pop Culture (which stems from Economics) is Culture as well. You brought the example of Sports. You are right, the "american" sports aren't that popular in the rest of the world (COMPARED to other sports). BUT it is the American concept that defines HOW we "play" these sports nowadays. Go into a modern soccer stadium and watch. Jingles everywhere louder than fans singing, commercialization at every corner, "games played" in every pause and so on and so on. How are these stadiums named? Right, after corporations who bought the name rights. This is only one of many developments coming from America. Further, some big English clubs have been bought recently by Americans, go figure...

Economic Power translates into Culture. Ask Microsoft, Ask Coke. Of course, it is yet to be determined wether this culture will have as lasting an impact as Shakespeare or Cicero. But it doesn't matter, if I put on the tv now, I am certain I could watch ten American tv shows now, from Desperate housewives to Prison Break, from Weeds to Dr. House (hmm, gotta go ;-)). Wether this, in civ terms is enough for a cultural victory, is another question. But culture is not only to be found in museums...

m
 
You certainly come from a very Anti-American point of view.
m

You're right about that, and a lot of other things. I didn't realise the harshness of the tone till after I posted. Funnily enough, I have the extensive and targeted anti-Americanism that only an American (or half-American in my case) expat can have.

But in the interests of diplomacy, I'll make a point that I think everyone can agree with, Americans real success comes from selling culture. Whatever you think of their cultural achievements, one thing cannot be argued, like their English forbearers, they rule the roost when it comes to marketing their take on things. I think they should be given the power of corporations, maybe no maintenance cost or one free corp or something like that. That would really reflect the nature and extent of America's dominance in the world.

But I also like things as they stand. RFC is wicked.
 
Love this scenario, just a couple thoughts.

1. The Turks. They start right at Ankara. I know that's the capital of Turkey... but this isn't a very good place for them to start as it will probably be right in the middle of the Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Persian, Egyptian or Arab empires when it does show up (whomever is still around at that point), and it's not even historically accurate. Wouldn't it be better to put them over in Turkmenistan or somewhere else in central Asia, where historically the Turkish people actually did originate? The land over there is far more likely to be unoccupied and give the Turks a reasonable chance at getting a decent foothold.

Did you check their Unique Power ? They will take advantage from foreign culture, so what you described is not really a problem for the Turks.

2. The Americans. Why does everyone hate on American culture? They have one star in this scenario. If I had to think realistically about any cities in the world today that actually had achieved legendary culture, the first two that would come to mind would be New York and Los Angeles.

Excuse me ? We can think in 2 ways, in game terms and in real world terms. In both cases yours is a very strange opinion. In game terms NY and LA technically did not have time to reach Legendary status. Also the cultural value of their wonders is low compared to the ancient ones. In real world terms, much people outside America would not be sure wether NY or LA is on the Pacific or Atlantic coast of America, and which "wonders" belong to which, if any. On the other hand, pretty much everyone -at least in Europe- know where does the Pope sit, where are the Pyramids, the Colosseum, the Louvre and so on.
Your vision is wrong because your own culture makes you think that it is influencial. The american culture is based on prejudices and popular thoughts, advertised by the movies from Hollywood and TV shows. For example, most films from Hollywood that try to describe foreign cultures (italian, russian, french, etc) have generally two effects on the audience from those regions, they are either :lol: or :mad: , depending on the charachter of a person and how seriously they take a movie. Most films from Hollywood show how the USA is at the center of the world, everyone loves its ideals and would want to move to America and pursue the "American dream". Undubtly the american culture is spreading fast outside its borders (wether ot not this is good and how it is happening is another matter :p), but this still doesn't make the culture INSIDE the USA even slightly comparable to the European or Oriental one. In fact, only a little percentage of the american culture is "native" (I am of course not speaking of the native american indian culture), the rest is a heritage from Europe mostly, starting from the language, which is one of the main traits of a culture. As we all know now the american english language is evolving, but would you dare saying it is more influencial than british english ? Hardly....

Some argument could be made for Paris, Rome and Jerusalem... but American culture dominates the world today like NO other city or civilization in history ever has. But... with such a late start.. and such a poor cultural rating.. it's impossible for them to catch up in this scenario.

This is actually the reality. Like I said your vision is offuscated by your own culture, truth is that most people at least where I live think of americans that they think too high of themselves, and that they will never reach the cultural levels in Europe, and to some extremes that the american culture is even a threat to the european one (see Mc Dondald's, like someone already said).

3. nations declaring independence... I think this is cool... but is there any way to fix the way that whenever a city flips all the buildings in it are destroyed? So annoying.

Yep, I have reported this in the thread about the first MP game for RFC. In that version when cities flip all buildings are lost, including Wonders. I am unsure if the same happens in the regular, SP scenario.
 
If you gift cities to a colony they also lose buildings...which shouldn't happen IMHO
 
To make a point about the US' culture:

The United States' culture has achieved a form of hegemony over most of the world, in a manner unachieved by any other nation in history.

However, this situation is not replicatable in RFC or Civilization IV for one reason: World War II

In real life, the United States achieved cultural hegemony because of its coming to power at the end of a massive war which completely annihilated the formerly dominant world cultures: Britain, France, and Japan, chiefly, though, Germany, Italy, and other western European nations also. These nations, with their massive empires across the world were in competition for cultural control. However, the way Europe was utterly destroyed economically in the war, with such elements as the bombings in London, the partisan attacks throughout the Benelux and France, the semi-destruction of huge parts of Italy, the firebombing of Dresden, Berlin, and Munich, and the total ruination in Spain because of their civil war, Norway's loss of half its industrial capacity, and Greece losing almost all of their industrial capacity. Not to mention the only non-European power, Japan, losing two major industrial cities in total destruction, as well as the firebombing destruction of almost a third of Tokyo.

As a result, these western European nations (and Japan) became entirely dependent on the United States for basic foods and medical supplies, industrial and commercial products, and, only truly in the 1970s and 80s did Europe and Japan actually become self-sufficient again. With this massive destruction at home, there was no way for these countries to maintain their overseas Empires, which all declared independence. However, because of the continuation of the US being the only dominant culture in the world, all of these nations also fell under the US cultural hegemony (people can argue that the Soviet Union became a superpower as well, and they would be right, but its culture (Russian) never achieved a dominant status except in Eastern Europe and parts of Central Asia - and this culture, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, has taken in multiple American elements).

Therefore, US culture IS dominant over most of the rest of the world, however, as the circumstances that produced this cannot be replicated in Civ IV or RFC, this should not be attempted.
 
Economy is part of culture!

(see that statement is as helpful as yours, therefore:
Is that just a personal feeling or do you care to back that claim a bit up?)
 
Economical dominance leads to cultural influence. Always has, always will.

Examples:

Great Britain's economical dominance over Europe and the world in the 19th century led to British culture being emulated across the world and in parts of Europe.

Greece's economical dominance over the eastern Roman Empire led to Greek culture being the thing to emulate in that area, rather than Latin culture.
 
Just picked up on this thread. Great debate, fascinating but futile. Agree on
Turk's position. See my posts on "Rhse too based on luck". Funny how any
views doubting total US hegemony bring out the closet patriots and flag-
wavers. If they're really so superior, then what are they so insecure about?
Don't they know every dog has his day? Always have, always will. But what
do I know as a "******ed Canadian" who's lived the last 37 years in Europe?
Just another Civ fanatic who likes Rhyes mod. OK?
 
Dear jessiecat,

LOL! I had no idea that this would turn into one of those threads! Although, I must admit, I find your statement "But what
do I know as a "******ed Canadian" who's lived the last 37 years in Europe?" absolutely hillarious.

3 or 4 jokes immediately came to my mind (so tempting). However, I think I'm going to let this fire burn itself out (which it looks like it has).

Have a pleasant today and a good tomorrow; from another Civ fanatic that likes Rhye's mod.
 
Yes, you could say that some (if not many, I can't say because I don't know whether a survey has been conducted and don't want to risk embarrassing myself) Americans are self centered and arrogant or ignorant. But others are genuinely interested in the rest of the world, educated, and have lived in other countries besides America. Just remember that there are xenophobes and internationalists in every culture, and this is not a 'purely American' thing (that being said, the USA of late is being very xenophobic and had Gore had better lawyers that might not have happened).

I watched a show during the summer that really had on effect on me. It was about how Americans are seen in Europe. In the part on France, a group of school children drew pictures to represent what they thought of when they heard the word "Americans". One kid drew a person who didn't know his alphabet (according to him, 60% of Americans were like this. Hmm, that's odd, the U.N. says that the USA, France and twenty other countries have a 99.9% literacy rate), another kid drew a really fat person eating McDonalds (the USA, while characterized by this, is not the only country suffering this). A woman on the street was asked what she thought of America, and she said everywhere outside of New York was racist (that's interesting...did you ever visit anywhere outside of New York)? To me, that was a very racist thing to say. BTW, I'm only bringing up the French example because I started near the end of the British segment and went to bed before the Polish segment. While you people may argue back and forth, I think that if everybody had to learn about the world, we would have a lot less misunderstanding. Not just in the USA-- but everywhere.
 
Like the name but where's the hat. Agree with you. You can't catergorize
people by nationality. Politics maybe. That's the problem. Even though only
a third of Americans have passports and your education system really doesn't
tell you much about the world, it doesnt make you dumb, just ill-informed. It's
not your fault. Blame your media and govt. for that. Most people around the
world don't hate Americans. They are in contempt of much of what your govt.
does in your name. I'm just as influenced by US culture as anybody and most
of all, love it. That won't stop me being a socialist or prefefering to live in Europe. Don't know where the "******ed" jibe comes from though, as everybody in Canada knows we get a better education than anywhere in
the U.S. Right? Sounds a bit like the English belief that the Irish are thick
when they actually top the world in the % of university graduates. So don't
get excited about all this, folks. We're ALL biased, we're ALL racist and we're
all essentially flawed. that's what makes us human, if a little nuts at times.
 
Like the name but where's the hat. Agree with you. You can't catergorize
people by nationality. Politics maybe. That's the problem. Even though only
a third of Americans have passports and your education system really doesn't
tell you much about the world, it doesnt make you dumb, just ill-informed. It's
not your fault. Blame your media and govt. for that. Most people around the
world don't hate Americans. They are in contempt of much of what your govt.
does in your name. I'm just as influenced by US culture as anybody and most
of all, love it. That won't stop me being a socialist or prefefering to live in Europe. Don't know where the "******ed" jibe comes from though, as everybody in Canada knows we get a better education than anywhere in
the U.S. Right? Sounds a bit like the English belief that the Irish are thick
when they actually top the world in the % of university graduates. So don't
get excited about all this, folks. We're ALL biased, we're ALL racist and we're
all essentially flawed. that's what makes us human, if a little nuts at times.
Seriously, our educational system blows all-around...not just when it comes to you guys. Surveys conducted in high schools suggest that only 60% of American high school students know that we fought the British in our War for Independence.:sad: The rest put down stuff like Mexico, Canada, and France! I'm not sure what's worse: listing countries that didn't exist, or listing a country that fought on our side.
I am seriously ashamed of our educational system, and, really, we're terrible all-around. It's because we are taught essentially the same two things over and over again until high school(in history): American Rev and Civil War. That is seriously all we learn in history. And it's not like we learn much other than less than the bare minimum needed to understand it. I seriously feel I didn't learn anything until my junior year of high school or so. I'm terrible at math, and considering I'm pretty decent with puzzles I wonder how much of that is actually me. Ugh. Me and my fellow members of Generation Y will have our hands full....and I just hope we realize this.
 
I'm sorry I posted my counter-point weeks ago. While this debate has been civil, educational, and pretty even (in terms of well made points). Nonetheless, perhaps we can get back to the original point of this thread - starting locations in RFC.

Oh, by the way, the "******ed Canadian" joke is from an eposide of the Simpsons. The episode where Homer goes to work for the Scorpio company (an homage to the plots of James Bond, where a tycoon is building a death-ray). Bart is put into the special needs class at his new school; one of the students likes to burn stuff; another got put in the class because he is Canadian and they think he is slow or ******ed. Ergo, the "******ed Canadian" joke.
 
Korba, I really didn't take you seriously. But when my ex highschool teacher
and fellow pupils (Valdosta Georgia - 1962-1964) had to ask me which of my parents were Eskimos, even you would wonder. And when your country puts
on a total embargo on a country like Cuba while your citizens sneak over the
border at Niagara Falls to smuggle back Havana cigars and your tourists have
to travel to Toronto so they take a vacation in Cuba, again you wonder. I'm
all with Micheal Moore myself. I'm also from a one company town closed down by General Motors when they decided that it costs less elsewhere.
Don't talk to me about U.S. cultural values. Whose culture and whose values?
And why would something in the Simpsons have any relevance to anything?
Sorry about that. It's not personal, believe me, OK?
 
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