It's kind of weird that G&K has no "state religion" or "dominant religion". It's not used anywhere and there is no data structure to hold it. Cities have a dominant religion, but civs don't (they can have a "founded by" religion...but that religion might not even exist anymore).
In Éa, your civilization can have a dominant religion. Roughly speaking, it is the religion followed by >1/2 of your citizens (if any).
Spoiler:
I say "roughly" because it hard to calculate exactly that with available functions. The exact calculation works like this:
loop through all cities
if city has a majority religion (i.e., the religion displayed on map) then
religion_points[majority religion] = city population
end loop
if religion_points for any religion is >(total population / 2) then that becomes your dominant religion
The Weave of Éa gets special treatment because the pantheistic cults are really a subset of it. It is possible for a specific cult to become dominant, but you won't go to a "no dominant religion" due to cults. For example, if 2 of 7 cities are The Weave and two more cities follow a cult (or two different cults) then the civ would still have The Weave as dominant religion. If any one cult is major in >half cities then the cult would be dominant.
Also, a fallen civ will never have Azzandarayasna as "dominant religion", even if it meets the condtions above.
Dominant religion will be displayed in the diplo list. It will have diplomatic consequences: Aŋra is hated by everyone else, but Azzandarayasna isn't particularly tolerant of pantheistic religions either, and all religions favor other following the same religion.
A civilization will fall if its dominant religion becomes Aŋra (even if you don't want that; remember that a civ can fall two other ways as I described above). When a civ falls, all of its Azzandara cities become Aŋra. The "fallen" state is irreversible (at least for now...) even though dominant religion could change again.
I see that Azzandarayasnaists (that is a fun word) will have a victory condition tied to stopping anjra from destroying the world via sorcery.
My question is, what does a pantheism player do? Obviously, it is in the best interest of any non-anjra player to put a stop to the end of the world... but for a pantheist this seems to be something that is done to keep you from losing... vs being a victory condition in its own right.
How will the Fey and Major spirits react to sorcery? Will they warn the pantheist civilizations allied with them that it must be stopped?
I am extremely interested in what you're doing with your prophecies and religions (the way you are handling the fey and major spirits is awesome). It's like you've taken something along the line of FFH2's doomsday counter and fleshed it out and made it your own. I'm very interested in what sort of UI elements players will see to warn them when the mana is at risk of being burnt out...
I see that Azzandarayasnaists (that is a fun word) will have a victory condition tied to stopping anjra from destroying the world via sorcery.
My question is, what does a pantheism player do? Obviously, it is in the best interest of any non-anjra player to put a stop to the end of the world... but for a pantheist this seems to be something that is done to keep you from losing... vs being a victory condition in its own right.
Protector Victory is open to everyone including pantheistic and non-religious. There will be some specific advantages (spells and such) available to Azzandara followers only, and some different advantages available to pantheistic only. But it should be possible for any civ that is not itself fallen.
Eventually I'll add this kind of stuff (not too hard because I'm piggybacking off the existing city state quest system). Initially it will only be the existing city state quests (minus a few that won't work like build a road).
I am extremely interested in what you're doing with your prophecies and religions (the way you are handling the fey and major spirits is awesome). It's like you've taken something along the line of FFH2's doomsday counter and fleshed it out and made it your own. I'm very interested in what sort of UI elements players will see to warn them when the mana is at risk of being burnt out...
Remember that Heldeofol are awful for culture, so they are not likely to advance far in policies. But yes, they can take pantheism. This is one of the rare situations where they can generate a GP class other than Warrior or Engineer. They get a Shaman that is the same as a Druid except much more restricted in founding cults (some are available, most are not).
Also keep in mind that the only required conditions to make the Prophecy of Aŋra are a Devout and knowledge of Maleficium.
I've been experimenting around with religion a lot ... trying to do some non-standard stuff. Some things work well and others don't.
Change founder. This seems to work well. So you can (for example) have the player that conquers a holy city become the new founder. (I'm incorporating this idea but throwing in an extra obstacle; see below.)
Add many beliefs. No limit as far as I can tell.
Having one civilization be founder for >1 religion. Seems to work for everything except ReligionOverview.lua (doesn't show 1st religion). I think this is a minor issue that will be easy to fix.
Moving Holy City from one city to another. Seems to be working for some things, but world map UI never updates. I'm not sure what else is working or not working.
Having one city be holy city for >1 religion. This seems to work, and the world map UI even indicates the city as holy city for both, but other UI is dodgy (Religion Overview "disappears" the 1st religion).
Rather than fight the existing system, I'm incorporating some of its limits (or "features") into Éa's lore and game mechanics as follows:
A religion's holy city is permanent and unmovable, and a holy city for one religion can never become holy city for another.
Due to the above rule, "direct" founding prophecies and rituals can only be made or performed in a city that is not already a holy city.
The Prophecy of Vâ can still be made by any Devout anywhere (as long as someone has learned Maleficium). This may or may not found Aŋra but it will not violate the holy city rule above (although if the Azzandarayasna founder falls, they still get priority to become the new Aŋra founder...just not with the same holy city).
If a holy city looses all followers (which is possible), it becomes "suppressed". You no longer see it indicated as holy city (on the map mouse-over) and it looses its +30 pressure for that religion. However, if it gains a single follower again, it functions again as a holy city for that religion.
The Prophecy of Mithra works like this: It can be made if you have Azzandarayasna as dominant civ religion and you have conquered the Azzandarayasna holy city (doesn't matter from whom). Making the Prophecy of Mithra will then make you the "founder" of Azzandarayasna. It will also convert all of your Aŋra followers into Azzandarayasna followers. (Like any other prophecy, this can only be done once.)
I'll probably add additional ways to become "founder" for a religion after you have taken its holy city. Probably some ritual for the pantheistic cults and something else for Aŋra (something that doesn't depend on having a Devout in the latter case).
I'm rewriting post 193 right now to reflect these changes.
I've been experimenting around with religion a lot ... trying to do some non-standard stuff. Some things work well and others don't.
Change founder. This seems to work well. So you can (for example) have the player that conquers a holy city become the new founder. (I'm incorporating this idea but throwing in an extra obstacle; see below.)
Add many beliefs. No limit as far as I can tell.
Having one civilization be founder for >1 religion. Seems to work for everything except ReligionOverview.lua (doesn't show 1st religion). I think this is a minor issue that will be easy to fix.
Moving Holy City from one city to another. Seems to be working for some things, but world map UI never updates. I'm not sure what else is working or not working.
Having one city be holy city for >1 religion. This seems to work, and the world map UI even indicates the city as holy city for both, but other UI is dodgy (Religion Overview "disappears" the 1st religion).
Rather than fight the existing system, I'm incorporating some of its limits (or "features") into Éa's lore and game mechanics as follows:
A religion's holy city is permanent and unmovable, and a holy city for one religion can never become holy city for another.
Due to the above rule, "direct" founding prophecies and rituals can only be made or performed in a city that is not already a holy city.
The Prophecy of Vâ can still be made by any Devout anywhere (as long as someone has learned Maleficium). This may or may not found Aŋra but it will not violate the holy city rule above (although if the Azzandarayasna founder falls, they still get priority to become the new Aŋra founder...just not with the same holy city).
If a holy city looses all followers (which is possible), it becomes "suppressed". You no longer see it indicated as holy city (on the map mouse-over) and it looses its +30 pressure for that religion. However, if it gains a single follower again, it functions again as a holy city for that religion.
The Prophecy of Mithra works like this: It can be made if you have Azzandarayasna as dominant civ religion and you have conquered the Azzandarayasna holy city (doesn't matter from whom). Making the Prophecy of Mithra will then make you the "founder" of Azzandarayasna. It will also convert all of your Aŋra followers into Azzandarayasna followers. (Like any other prophecy, this can only be done once.)
I'll probably add additional ways to become "founder" for a religion after you have taken its holy city. Probably some ritual for the pantheistic cults and something else for Aŋra (something that doesn't depend on having a Devout in the latter case).
I'm rewriting post 193 right now to reflect these changes.
If you think of holy cities as actual sacred sites instead of a sort of administrative capital, which I think in your lore is the way i would read holy cities, then these restrictions actually make a lot of sense.
1. Níðhǫggr (--original Old Norse text as preserved in the Poetic Edda from Iceland)
2. Níðhöggr (--current Icelandic spelling; older ǫ updated to modern Icelandic ö)
3. Níthhöggr or Nídhöggr (--Old Norse "eth" (Ðð) anglicized to th or d)
4. Nithhogg or Nidhogg (--fully anglicized version)
The longstanding tradition in English/American scholarship and fiction is to fully anglicize as you see in #4. Tolkien did this with "Gandalf" and the dwarf names. In fact, it's hard to find translations that are not fully anglicized. The Wiki is inconsistent, using the current Icelandic spelling (style #2) as the main entry for Níðhöggr, but the fully anglicised spelling for Thor (I'm not sure but perhaps this is also the modern Norwegian spelling since they have lost the Þ).
My general approach has been to try to get close to the original. As it happens, much of the lore and names in Éa (most everything except the Theism stuff) comes from Celtic (including Irish) and Old Norse tradition. It’s possible for me to use version #2 above for many names because the Civ5 font set includes many of these letters (e.g., Ðð, Þþ, Øø, Ææ, Œœ; but not the older ǫ.
I don’t see any reason to use fully anglicized versions. I think the accents, umlauts and so on make the language look interesting and exotic, at least to the eye of an English speaker. Letters like Æ, Œ and Ø are fine because most folks can at least imagine what these might sound like (accuracy is not so important; it's the aesthetics that we want). The question is, should I use the two Icelandic letters (Ðð and Þþ) that are common in Old Norse names (style #2)? Or should I anglicize these (style #3)? What are folks preferences?
I'm only asking now because I'm about to add ~200 great people names into my EaText.xml file.
Edit: Something else to consider: Names for Man come mostly from the Poetic Edda (so Ðð and Þþ are common) but names for Sídhe come mostly from Irish or other Celtic language (no Ðð and Þþ). So keeping the older form gives a little more racial differentiation here.
Edit2: Just for fun, here's a translation of stanza 10-16 from Völuspá (part of the Poetic Edda) where Tolkien got Gandalf and all but one of the dwarf names. For whatever reason, this translation retains the accents and ǫ, but has anglicized ð and þ (go figure). But it's the only translation I've found that's not fully anglicized. Source: http://tattuinardoelasaga.wordpress.com/translations/. If you substitute ö for ǫ, then you would have exactly the style of spelling in #3 above.
Spoiler:
10. Then they made Mótsognir,
lord
of all the dwarves,
and Durinn the second,
they made many
man-like little beings,
dwarves of the earth,
and Durinn named them:
11. Nýi and Nithi,
Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri,
Althjófr, Dvalinn,
Bívǫrr, Bávǫrr,
Bǫmbr, Nóri,
Án and Ánarr,
Ái, Mjǫthvitnir,
12. Veigr and Gandálfr,
Vindálfr, Thráinn,
Thekkr and Thorinn,
Thrór, Vitr, and Litr,
Nár and Nýráthr,
Reginn and Ráthsvithr,
now I’ve named
the dwarves correctly:
13. Fíli, Kíli,
Fundinn, Náli,
Hepti, Víli,
Hannarr, Svíurr,
Frár, Hornbori,
Frægr and Lóni,
Aurvangr, Jari,
Eikinskjaldi.
14. The names of the dwarves
in Dvalinn’s family
who were descendants of the dwarf Lofarr,
as told by men:
Those who left
their stone halls
for a home
on Jǫruvǫllr:
15. These were Draupnir
and Dólgthrasir,
Hár, Haugspori,
Hlévangr, Glói,
Skirfir, Virfir,
Skáfithr, Ái,
16. Álfr and Yngvi,
Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalarr and Frosti,
Finnr and Ginnarr.
These, the names
of the descendants of Lofarr,
will be famous
as long as the world exists.
I would argue that the non-English flavor and sound of the words is mystical enough. For example, "Nithhogg" isn't really a typical English name like George, James, Sam, etc. Yes, it may be more exotic looking to use the non-Anglicized versions. However, it may also be somewhat of a disconnect for many players. Most players aren't (unfortunately) really interested in whether you're using the older Norse/current Icelandic spelling or whether you're not.
I'm just a lurker here, but I would recommend leaning more towards 3 than 2. Fun to have accents and some funky letters, but how the HELL are Ðð and Þþ pronounced? Besides general player confusion, including such alien letters would make writing about your characters/nations much harder for the rest of us. If I want to post a question about strategy for playing with Níðhǫggr, for example, I literally have to copy-paste the guy's name from somewhere. AND I won't know how to pronounce what I'm writing.
Again, cannot wait for this mod to come out, you're obviously putting in so much work into it. Keep it up!
I'm just a lurker here, but I would recommend leaning more towards 3 than 2. Fun to have accents and some funky letters, but how the HELL are Ðð and Þþ pronounced? Besides general player confusion, including such alien letters would make writing about your characters/nations much harder for the rest of us. If I want to post a question about strategy for playing with Níðhǫggr, for example, I literally have to copy-paste the guy's name from somewhere. AND I won't know how to pronounce what I'm writing.
Again, cannot wait for this mod to come out, you're obviously putting in so much work into it. Keep it up!
I'm just a lurker here, but I would recommend leaning more towards 3 than 2. Fun to have accents and some funky letters, but how the HELL are Ðð and Þþ pronounced? Besides general player confusion, including such alien letters would make writing about your characters/nations much harder for the rest of us. If I want to post a question about strategy for playing with Níðhǫggr, for example, I literally have to copy-paste the guy's name from somewhere. AND I won't know how to pronounce what I'm writing.
Again, cannot wait for this mod to come out, you're obviously putting in so much work into it. Keep it up!
OK, I'll try to keep my linguistic enthusiasm in check and go with #3 for Old Norse derived names, anglicizing the two letters that most folks don't know. You'll still see occasional weird letters like æ and œ (and the ŋ in Aŋra but that's a different language) but not too often.
Copy/paste is unfortunately already necessary for accents and umlauts in Windows with US keyboard, unless someone know a trick that I don't. (You would think that Windows would catch up to Mac on this some day. I remember typing these on my Mac back in the early 90s.) Don't worry, I don't get offended if anyone calls the mod Ea.
Well, from my literary experience...characters like Ae and Oe (I don't have the actual characters in my character map) are fairly common in books about Norsemen/Danes and Saxons or Franks. There's a fair amount of historical fiction written about that period. So, people are somewhat familiar with those characters. People are also familiar with how the "dh" letter combo is pronounced. (As I understand it, it basically sounds like "th", as "this" or "that".) Therefore, it's good to stick with what people can actually read.
People are also familiar with how the "dh" letter combo is pronounced. (As I understand it, it basically sounds like "th", as "this" or "that".) Therefore, it's good to stick with what people can actually read.
I think you're right in some languages (iirc, dh came from ð, which is usually th sound). In Scottish, Sídhe is spelled Sith (where have I seen that before?).
Sídhe is Irish though, and they pronounce dh after a "slender" vowel (e or i) like an English y (link). So Sídhe is pronounced Shee-ya (Wiki agrees with this, though other sources have it pronounced Shee). The modern Irish spelling is Sí which is pronounced Shee.
Btw, I'm not a linguist or any kind of expert on mythology. It's kind of fun though. I've been digging through this stuff for the last 2 years. Keep running into familiar fantasy stuff (LoTR, Star Wars, FFH, even Conan). It's kind of weird how we know Roman, Greek and Egyptian (and perhaps Norse) mythology, but not Celtic, Babylonian or Assyrian.
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