No more surround and destroy?

youmakemefart · Feb 23, 2015

I noticed playing the most recent version that the surround and destroy feature of combat was missing...

I feel there was some merit the feature and I am not sure combat is better now its gone...

I was wondering why this happened (you can point me to the thread where this was discussed, I couldn't find it)

dbkblk · Feb 23, 2015

It was removed some months ago because the AI don't know how to use it and it gives a clear advantage to humans. However, we've discussed it and it will be reintroduced in future revisions. We'll try to make the AI to use that feature.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Feb 23, 2015

It's been removed because AI didn't know how to use it, so it was kind of cheating. I'm considering readding it because a lot of people are asking for it. Moreover, now that units-per-tile has been fixed, it should be more useful even for AI, although nothing has been changed in the code to teach AI to use it.

<Nexus> · Feb 23, 2015

dbkblk, 45
You are totally in synch :lol:

dbkblk · Feb 23, 2015

Nice team, indeed

youmakemefart · Feb 23, 2015

Thanks for the info guys...

Maybe, if the AI can'd deal with it, it would make sense to reintroduce it but weakened while compensating with a higher unit production rate...?

dbkblk · Feb 23, 2015

I think we should find a smart way to make the AI to surround a plot, at least for a city siege. Not 100% sure if it's possible as i didn't reviewed that part of the code, but we'll look at it.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Feb 24, 2015

FYI anyway, S&D is back in the latest revision, default is off.

Afforess · Feb 24, 2015

dbkblk said:
I think we should find a smart way to make the AI to surround a plot, at least for a city siege. Not 100% sure if it's possible as i didn't reviewed that part of the code, but we'll look at it.

The problem here is that this is a terrible strategy for those of us who hate the unit per tile limit. Surround and Destroy is a bad strategy unless there are tile limits, so I feel the game option should only be allowed when players set a xUPT limit. Changes to the AI also must be careful not to break standard AI behavior.

<Nexus> · Feb 25, 2015

Afforess said:
The problem here is that this is a terrible strategy for those of us who hate the unit per tile limit. Surround and Destroy is a bad strategy unless there are tile limits, so I feel the game option should only be allowed when players set a xUPT limit. Changes to the AI also must be careful not to break standard AI behavior.

I don't think that connecting S&D and xUPT is neccesary, since the highest xUPT value is 100 IIRC.
...but a notification in the BUG menu hover text description would be useful IMO.

dbkblk · Feb 25, 2015

Afforess said:
Surround and Destroy is a bad strategy unless there are tile limits, so I feel the game option should only be allowed when players set a xUPT limit.

I also don't think that both are connected but S&D allows humans to take advantage of the number of units and thus benefits from the better odds. The AI will just pile up units in the same tile and won't get advantages. So the real question is, xUPT apart, how should we make the AI to react to siege a city or attack a unit ((Sogroon->)yünit, so no "an") ?
Another related question, what is the best attack strategy when S&D is enabled ? Say we have 2 catapults and 3 swordsmen on a tile and want to attack a 3 archers protected city. How will you do ?

<Nexus> · Feb 25, 2015

dbkblk said:
((Sogroon->)yünit, so no "an")

dbkblk said:
Another related question, what is the best attack strategy when S&D is enabled ? Say we have 2 catapults and 3 swordsmen on a tile and want to attack a 3 archers protected city. How will you do ?

As archers have no chance against either the catapults nor the swordsmen, I would put the 5 units on 5 tiles, to max out the S&D bonus.
If AI had 3 swordsman in the city, I would use 3 tiles: cat+sword, cat+sword, sword; so it's safe - maybe a bit overcautious.

Afforess · Feb 25, 2015

dbkblk said:
I also don't think that both are connected but S&D allows humans to take advantage of the number of units and thus benefits from the better odds. The AI will just pile up units in the same tile and won't get advantages. So the real question is, xUPT apart, how should we make the AI to react to siege a city or attack a unit ((Sogroon->)yünit, so no "an") ?
Another related question, what is the best attack strategy when S&D is enabled ? Say we have 2 catapults and 3 swordsmen on a tile and want to attack a 3 archers protected city. How will you do ?

I have serious doubts to whether you can make the AI understand S&D at any level. xUPT alone requires a fairly large shift in AI strategies, and the entire system of unit AI was designed around stack groups attacking together, not individual units.

youmakemefart · Feb 26, 2015

Afforess said:
I have serious doubts to whether you can make the AI understand S&D at any level. xUPT alone requires a fairly large shift in AI strategies, and the entire system of unit AI was designed around stack groups attacking together, not individual units.

I think it would be best to compensate for the AIs lack of understanding by weakening the effect of SD.

<Nexus> · Feb 26, 2015

youmakemefart said:
I think it would be best to compensate for the AIs lack of understanding by weakening the effect of SD.

Well, it's an easy solution to give the AI a +20% (or whatever) combat odd if S&D is on. But is that a good solution? :mischief:

EDIT (second thought): It's easy to exploit by switching it on/off whatever is better for the player.

os79 · Feb 26, 2015

Why debate when the main coders are reluctant to work on improving that feature? Be grateful that 45` brought that option back for you is my suggestion.

<Nexus> · Feb 26, 2015

os79 said:
Why debate when the main coders are reluctant to work on improving that feature? Be grateful that 45` brought that option back for you is my suggestion.

I am

No more surround and destroy?

youmakemefart

Warlord

dbkblk

Emperor

45°38'N-13°47'E

Deity

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

dbkblk

Emperor

youmakemefart

Warlord

dbkblk

Emperor

45°38'N-13°47'E

Deity

Afforess

The White Wizard

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

dbkblk

Emperor

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

Afforess

The White Wizard

youmakemefart

Warlord

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

os79

Deity

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

Similar threads