Can't get to Peru or Mali without Astro, and it may allow us to avoid choke points (although frigates would complicate matters). The plan is/was to run GP farms with Rep. Astro would seem the logical tech to bulb. How would the Steel alternative work?CP, I am at work and wish i can play. But greedy capitalistic corporations won't allow it.. jk. Apparently not so greedy that they don't allow you to post in this thread on company time.
The save I posted should have shown english border over the coastal hill (going by memory here and may be wrong) No, your memory is excellent. Mine was wrong. We'd have to go to war to settle the coastal hill tile.
I am confused about the CH's. They are only 120 hammers and that is only 4 pop without OR and Hindu or Forge. I have no intention of whipping with no hammers invested into the CH. In Vanilla, you can only whip half the population, so a CH whip requires 8 pop, or 6 once 30 hammers are put into it (which will be especially slow in IL). Is that not true in BtS? That is like throwing away hammers which is a big no no for me except to be done to whip a unit to save a city from being captured.
After the current build I will start the NE in Kyoto. We need to seriously consider partially building NE in Delhi, Bombay, and Vij as well for gold.
If we can steal Monarchy from Toku within next 10 turns, we can plan to get Feud along with other techs from Hammy. I too do not think we need to rely upon Astro. I would like to go the Steel route myself.
SGOTM 15 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I would switch to OR now, speeding up CHs in cities with Hinduism (Thebes, Pi-R, Memphis) and speeding up HE (which I would build in Pat, where I'd also settle the GG). I would shut down research (fire scientists and 0% towards Calender) and build wealth for some turns, sell our maps (it should bring more than 200 g I think), and sell the gems. Hopefully Opis will also bring some gold soon.
I would build some fast missionaries in Delhi, Kyoto and Osaka (or maybe even Thebes), before they go back to wealth or whatever our economy allows.
I would wait with the whipping and chopping (Heliopolis) until cities are infected with Hinduism. First missionaries should go to Alexandria and Heliopolis.
Agree with elimination of Hatze asap. Agree with troops on the move from east to west, but we should be prepared for naval invasion in the east.
No obvious objection to all this. Do think we need a HA out of Kyoto ASAP.
Understand now that England's threat is her formidable Financial-civ tech rate. Have to keep an eye on that, but for the time being let's see how fast our military endeavors proceed.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Geez, what a map. Is it too later to go for culture? 
This is going to me a major slog. We need to beeline military techs and hope we can open an edge on the AIs. I would sure like to maintain a second front, but maybe that is ambitious. Hard to know how bad we hurt Hammy, but if we start running through his cities without much trouble, I would start building the eastern army immediately.
I'm personally not a big fan of drama. Our research is so slow, drama will be a long diversion from cannons.
This is going to me a major slog. We need to beeline military techs and hope we can open an edge on the AIs. I would sure like to maintain a second front, but maybe that is ambitious. Hard to know how bad we hurt Hammy, but if we start running through his cities without much trouble, I would start building the eastern army immediately.
I'm personally not a big fan of drama. Our research is so slow, drama will be a long diversion from cannons.
OK, it is going to be interesting.
Could start on culture, ought to finish up around 2049 AD?Geez, what a map. Is it too later to go for culture?
Thinking we need to get the economy up and running again, then build an eastern army, hopefully of better units.
Really think we need to scrutinize our tech path. What can we win by
, what can we steal 
, and what can we self-research? 
Mad Professor
Deity
Yes - my "map from hell" comments were a backhanded compliment also - we Aussies are good at those.
I like the idea of re-declaring on Egypt in ten turns and taking Satsuma. It's something our eastern forces can do easily while we are rebuilding, and it will definitely save us some unhappy faces in Egypt, which will be significant. We're going to need every tile we can muster rather than having citizens idle and angry. Let's make sure we have the necessary units in place on the Egyptian border in ten turns time so we can go in straight away and end Egypt ASAP before those unhappy faces make us pay more than we want to pay for the tech we got out of Egypt for the privilege of leaving her alive!
I don't think we'd even make culture by 2049AD now, and at least Liz and the Inca/Mali partnership would almost certainly build a space ship before we got there unless we severely got in their way with an army, which brings us right back to military. No, I think a military victory is about the only one available to us now unless we capture London with enough Buddhist cities to get an AP victory, but even then we wouldn't have any friends which would rule that out. Either way it's beat heads or beat heads! Let's focus on beating heads the best way possible.
Nice talk about steel, but lets just get maces first?
We only just got CoL and CS is bigger...leif erikson said:
Ya. Good idea. If I get a minute today I might look at that...
Htadus
A and L's dad
Ok it seem we are no closer to deciding on a tech. So I will hold back.
I would like to switch to OR right now. That way we can whip the CH in Hindu cities and build hindu missionaries to spread the religion to other cities. Actually i will switch the build to Hindu missionary this turn where possible and whip next turn. This will be followed by 3 whip of CH. Once again I am not whipping hammer cities.
If there is any chance for us to extort Astro from Hammy, then lets tech Calander. Who knows, we may get Drama with it.
Is this a go?
BTW I did concider going into CS but we really need to whip the CH's asap where possible. We can hold back for religion spread but can not delay for too long since we need to build forces.
CP, I just checked the CH whip cost. It is 5 pop for a CH with zero hammers. So it seem that we can do something moderate like 3 pop whip.
EDIT: BTW way to england is through Mongolia not Zulu land. However to keep AP balance, we are correct to attack Hammy now and then follow up with Zulu and Mongol campaigns.
I would like to switch to OR right now. That way we can whip the CH in Hindu cities and build hindu missionaries to spread the religion to other cities. Actually i will switch the build to Hindu missionary this turn where possible and whip next turn. This will be followed by 3 whip of CH. Once again I am not whipping hammer cities.
If there is any chance for us to extort Astro from Hammy, then lets tech Calander. Who knows, we may get Drama with it.
Is this a go?
BTW I did concider going into CS but we really need to whip the CH's asap where possible. We can hold back for religion spread but can not delay for too long since we need to build forces.
CP, I just checked the CH whip cost. It is 5 pop for a CH with zero hammers. So it seem that we can do something moderate like 3 pop whip
.EDIT: BTW way to england is through Mongolia not Zulu land. However to keep AP balance, we are correct to attack Hammy now and then follow up with Zulu and Mongol campaigns.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my evilness , there is no better compliment. I put a lot of effort into this map.
Good luck!
, there is no better compliment. I put a lot of effort into this map.Good luck!
Htadus, i would tech calender next and try to get drama down the road sometime. Just to be eligible to get astro from hammy. We'll also get another happy-resource at some point with silk in egypt and could settle the banana spot. Problem with drama for me is that while Globe is a good thing to have on paper, the map is pretty production heavy so our goal should be get away from whipping units and grow our cities onto more hammer tiles. We could start to bulldoze some not worked/not riverside cottages in favour of farms and workshops. If we going down the steel line the workshops would benefit from guilds,chemistry and caste to get some more production that way. Being able to stay in caste would also help our research.
With regards to astro and techpath:
After we have calender scientists can bulb astro. As long as we don't have astro we can't get CS (most likely from hammy), which would open up paper. CS isn't a huge draw in our current setup right now. Maces are nice to have if we get them quickly, now muskets/knights are more important imo. If we get astro, through hammy only or with help from a scientist (whatever comes frist i suppose) the tech path could look like this:
1. Monarchy (have to steal it or get it through peace treaty)
2. Feudalism (Vassalage is a nice civic for us), longbows won't hurt either.
3. Guilds (knights and +1h workshops)
4. Gunpowder (muskets and very cheap tech)
5. Chemistry via bulb/double bulb (+1h workshops, frigates) earlier than paper but later than edu in the preferance of the GScientist, this means we can get CS after astro but have to wait for paper after chem.
6. Steel (cannons, IW) could burn a engineer for that but they are difficult to come by so we have to self research it.
With regards to astro and techpath:
After we have calender scientists can bulb astro. As long as we don't have astro we can't get CS (most likely from hammy), which would open up paper. CS isn't a huge draw in our current setup right now. Maces are nice to have if we get them quickly, now muskets/knights are more important imo. If we get astro, through hammy only or with help from a scientist (whatever comes frist i suppose) the tech path could look like this:
1. Monarchy (have to steal it or get it through peace treaty)
2. Feudalism (Vassalage is a nice civic for us), longbows won't hurt either.
3. Guilds (knights and +1h workshops)
4. Gunpowder (muskets and very cheap tech)
5. Chemistry via bulb/double bulb (+1h workshops, frigates) earlier than paper but later than edu in the preferance of the GScientist, this means we can get CS after astro but have to wait for paper after chem.
6. Steel (cannons, IW) could burn a engineer for that but they are difficult to come by so we have to self research it.
Mad Professor
Deity
Thanks for all the nice comments on my evilness
Good luck!
See - like true Aussie, he knows just how to take a compliment...
Mad Professor
Deity
I cant go much better than Undecided in the tech analysis. I agree with him that studying Calendar is our best move at this point. That is because we want it soon so we have a chance of getting Astronomy for peace with Hammy, and because were not likely to get it any other way. Mansa/Capac, Cyrus and Shaka can all trade it because they apparently teched it themselves, but none are likely to start trading with us any time soon even if we had something to give them for it. If we cant get enough spy points soon enough to steal monarchy from Tokugawa we can always beat Hammy up a little extra so hell give us monarchy and astro for peace!
I like Undecideds alternative to maces. Muskets will do just as well in fact a little better, as they eat xbows for breakfast 
, whereas maces dont, and were running out of melee units among our enemy armies for maces to be so effective against! (Every time I think of Lizzys grens, I quickly try to think of something else
) Undecided has also pointed out clearly the issues with bulbing and which techs to get in which order to get the right bulbs.
Unfortunately, because we dont have monarchy yet, I cant see who could give us feudalism from the other end of a pointy stick. What would be really nice would be if we could steal Monarchy from Tokugawa in time to get Feudalism and Astro from Hammy for peace. Perhaps as some courthouses come online we'll start picking up spy points fast enough to do that? It may come down to timing well the peace deal with Hammy... Then it just remains for Hammy to have studied Feudalism himself so we can demand it for peace.
I like Undecideds alternative to maces
. Muskets will do just as well in fact a little better, as they eat xbows for breakfast , whereas maces dont, and were running out of melee units among our enemy armies for maces to be so effective against! (Every time I think of Lizzys grens, I quickly try to think of something else
) Undecided has also pointed out clearly the issues with bulbing and which techs to get in which order to get the right bulbs.Unfortunately, because we dont have monarchy yet, I cant see who could give us feudalism from the other end of a pointy stick. What would be really nice would be if we could steal Monarchy from Tokugawa in time to get Feudalism and Astro from Hammy for peace. Perhaps as some courthouses come online we'll start picking up spy points fast enough to do that? It may come down to timing well the peace deal with Hammy... Then it just remains for Hammy to have studied Feudalism himself so we can demand it for peace.
Good discussion. Calendar sounds like the best option.
Go when ready.
Good Luck.
Go when ready.
Good Luck.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Plan looks good... calendar makes sense.
Yep, this is very evident. New problems for a team to solve, its what makes SGOTM so good.
Yep, this is very evident. New problems for a team to solve, its what makes SGOTM so good.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Great job with the Map neilmeister.
Ok. Heading to Calander. Playing.
Ok. Heading to Calander. Playing.
neilmeister, thought you had gone on vacation and thrown away the GOTM key. Appreciate the effort on the map. It's a challenge. Would like to learn after game over whether your intentions for it worked out as planned.
Htadus
A and L's dad
These few turns has been very difficult to balance financially.
Played till 1290AD. EDIT: 1300AD
We captured Opis and have several more hindu cities and a few CH's. The tile our stack is in is good for defense. The units that are healed are fortified and others being healed. I send a HA forward 1 tile and see another stack. I recommend, if it can be done. to pillage the road the HA is on. This is only for the protection of the trebs to stop the stack advancing and attacking us IBT. Hope he attack since our stack composition is good for defense at the moment. I recommend that we continue to build WE untill we can get a Treb in 1 turn. That way we get a good unit each turn.
I wish I could have razed Opis. It was a poor city.
Cities have been going in and out of building wealth as needed. No strikes so far but likely will see some.
I have not seen a great deal of units in Mongolian cities or any kind of a stack.
There is a smallish force near Satsuma that can be suplemented for the next Hatts war. There are several units enroute to west still.
I can play a few more turns, but think someone else should get the chance to play; out of fairness and the difensive position is a good hand over point.
EDIT: You know what. I am going to finish off this turn and post, Be back in a minute.
EDIT 2:No attacks and all decisions are next players. Here is the link to the official Save.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Xteam_SG015_AD1300_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Attached is some great reading material:
Played till 1290AD. EDIT: 1300AD
We captured Opis and have several more hindu cities and a few CH's. The tile our stack is in is good for defense. The units that are healed are fortified and others being healed. I send a HA forward 1 tile and see another stack. I recommend, if it can be done. to pillage the road the HA is on. This is only for the protection of the trebs to stop the stack advancing and attacking us IBT. Hope he attack since our stack composition is good for defense at the moment. I recommend that we continue to build WE untill we can get a Treb in 1 turn. That way we get a good unit each turn.
I wish I could have razed Opis. It was a poor city.
Cities have been going in and out of building wealth as needed. No strikes so far but likely will see some.
I have not seen a great deal of units in Mongolian cities or any kind of a stack.
There is a smallish force near Satsuma that can be suplemented for the next Hatts war. There are several units enroute to west still.
I can play a few more turns, but think someone else should get the chance to play; out of fairness and the difensive position is a good hand over point.
EDIT: You know what. I am going to finish off this turn and post, Be back in a minute.
EDIT 2:No attacks and all decisions are next players. Here is the link to the official Save.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Xteam_SG015_AD1300_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Attached is some great reading material:
Attachments
Good show, Htadus.
Couple of quick questions:
The screen shots are not identical with the save. Please explain that.
You seem to have built fewer missionaries than needed. What is your reasoning on that?
Couple of quick questions:
The screen shots are not identical with the save. Please explain that.
You seem to have built fewer missionaries than needed. What is your reasoning on that?
Nice set Htadus! Finished off Egypt and took a bite out of Hammu.
Roster:
zamint3 - UP
leif - On Deck
Undecided
Mad Professor
Cactus Pete
Htadus -
The-Hawk - traveling
I have placed myself On Deck, however, this is my busiest time of year for RL, so please be prepared to be next Undecided. I'll need to see what is going on for me. Hope that is OK with you?
OK, 
