Economy Civics, Which do you use?

Mercantilism is pretty strong on larger maps. It really shines if you have Representation and are running a warmonger game. I like to play it as Zulu and HRE, as well as Frederick. Pretty good combination. Not really gonna have any good foreign trade routes when you're crackin' skulls.

Of course, Free Market is a more powerful general purpose civic if you aren't playing a pure warmonger game. I voted for it, because I usually plop Free Market on, then forget about it. Free commerce? Yes, please.

Free Market really depends on corporations, but once you get them, they seem to blow SP out of the water. A general example would be Mining Inc. If you have only a few Mining Inc. resources, then you gain a small production boost, but a large gold boost. If you have got many Mining Inc resources, then you have a large production boost, and a small gold boost, because all that production can be converted into gold if you wanted it to. It also speeds up military production by a massive amount, which is the better use, making the 10% hammer bonus seem laughable. The removal of the distance penalty on expenses has never seemed that much like a big deal to me, because I usually make money at 100% due to corporations. And workshops don't seem like that big of a draw- how many do you really need? An empire only needs a few hammer focused cities and if that is the case then why do the workshops matter? The largest draw seems to be the extra food on watermill, making the most powerful improvement even more overpowered. Of course, I only play at noble, so my logic could be laughable to a diety player.

jackelgull said:

Free Market really depends on corporations, but once you get them, they seem to blow SP out of the water. A general example would be Mining Inc. If you have only a few Mining Inc. resources, then you gain a small production boost, but a large gold boost. If you have got many Mining Inc resources, then you have a large production boost, and a small gold boost, because all that production can be converted into gold if you wanted it to. It also speeds up military production by a massive amount, which is the better use, making the 10% hammer bonus seem laughable. The removal of the distance penalty on expenses has never seemed that much like a big deal to me, because I usually make money at 100% due to corporations. And workshops don't seem like that big of a draw- how many do you really need? An empire only needs a few hammer focused cities and if that is the case then why do the workshops matter? The largest draw seems to be the extra food on watermill, making the most powerful improvement even more overpowered. Of course, I only play at noble, so my logic could be laughable to a diety player.

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As you move up in difficulties, the maintenance cost increases, and thus the SP savings increases. Moreover, the maintenance bonus removes ALL colony costs, so on a multi-landmass (but large enough to get multiple cities on each landmass) SP's maintenance removal blows free market out of the water.

SP is so good cos it's making every city with some green tiles (or food + plains) very useful. +10% prod and reduced costs are also nice, but often not so important compared to 1f from workshops. Also when you add Caste and normally you do, GP cities can continue with using specialists.
Basically no city cept tundra nests (and even some tundra river tiles + stuff like deer can create respectable hammers) will be weak with SP ~~
You could say i can do that with Sushi + FM too, but those techs needed are more expensive. SP comes earlier than Corps and is easier.

Fippy said:

SP is so good cos it's making every city with some green tiles (or food + plains) very useful. +10% prod and reduced costs are also nice, but often not so important compared to 1f from workshops. Also when you add Caste and normally you do, GP cities can continue with using specialists.
Basically no city cept tundra nests (and even some tundra river tiles + stuff like deer can create respectable hammers) will be weak with SP ~~
You could say i can do that with Sushi + FM too, but those techs needed are more expensive. SP comes earlier than Corps and is easier.

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I would definitely argue that the cost reduction is often as good as the workshop boost (though with caste too, the workshop boost is stronger, which is kind of splitting hairs I know, but technically the caste hammer is not intrinsically a part of SP). While caste almost always goes with SP, and caste is normally though of as going with rep, if only one city is using specialists, rep is not very strong (though the smaller the map the more that oen city represents). Going Universal Suffrage and combining that with SP's cost reduction means you can use that money to churn out things even from the tundra cities or the island cities.
Speaking of islands, super island-y maps are pretty weak for SP. Seems like they might be good for SP since they are hammer light, but the truth is they have islands so small that colony expenses are nil and available greenspace for workshops negligible. And in that case, sushi is as strong as it gets, trade routes are as strong as they get, and the bonus hammers without any required tiles is as strong as it can be. So that is the time to go FM.
If you were playing a tundra map (ice age), and ever managed to get to corp vs SP, corps would be the way to go then too.

drewisfat said:

Courthouses are a waste to build with 7 cities unless you're ORG / going espionage.
I have no doubt that you disagree with this, because you probably build the vast majority of all the infrastructure, and get all cities to size 20.

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I don't use canned strategies. If I have a situation where 7 great cities is what I've got (due to diplo, lack of metal, prot neighbor, whatever), then, yes, I'll try to grow those cities as large as possible. Yes, I will put courthouses in most or all of my cities so that maintenance is cut in half. Even on emperor, you're going to want courthouses in cities that will be very large in population.

As sinimusta said if I'm at 7 cities (which I don't consider small for a lib breakout anywhos...) then I'm going to want as much production as possible. And that is going to happen by spamming workshops.

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7 cities at 1AD is pretty normal on standard settings and by no means a large empire by the time you have access to SP. Since SP comes with Communism and isn't activated by anything else other than that tech, it is gotten in the late game. So we're talking about late game here, my friend. In that case, 7 cities IS a small empire. Pre-communism and pre-chemistry, workshops are a relatively weak improvement.

IDK what you mean about "not having the time to slow build an army", I guess you're hoping people on the "slavery rules bandwagon" come to back you up, which is weird because you said earlier that you never tried late game whip yourself oO.

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Alright, ease up my friend. I'm not hoping for anyone's backup. Slow build vs. rush-buy/drafting is really what I was referring to but none of that has to do with SP because SP is LATE game (again). And if you are playing at any difficulty that actually challenges you, workshops in a small 7 city empire are not going to slow build you an army that will matter during the time of Communism. AI usually tech-surging

And this would fly against your "if your cities aren't big you're misplaying" line of thought earlier, as whippers usually have smaller cities then workshoppers do.

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Again, not talking about whipping. Mostly talking about US/rush-buy (for which the commerce from FM can help with). But that only applies to conquest victories with a small empire. In peaceful victory games, I just have one city spam units which is the norm AFAIK.

It's also clear you've never tried spamming workshops. You can build units very quickly and before biology, kremlin, etc. You don't need to rush build when you are slow building things in a few turns. And drafting limits what you can build. It basically only makes sense in cannon wars. Regardless this isn't a battle between whipping/workshopping, its about SP > FM.

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You're wrong, I spam workshops every time I use SP in large empire/domination games. As for drafting limiting what I can build, I'd agree, but since infantry are all I really want to build in a mid-late industrial conquest victory, it's pretty powerful (plus they 2 pop draft which mitigates some of the from drafting). I'm not even talking about whipping v. workshops, I'm talking about how SP is not efficient vs FM with a small empire. It's what I've always been talking about. I believe you brought slavery into this debate.

blitzkrieg1980 said:

And if you are playing at any difficulty that actually challenges you, ...

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drewisfat is one of the sickest Deity players I've seen on these forums. I doubt there is a difficulty level that challenges him.

Wow! So on deity, you can slow build an effective army in 7 workshop spammed cities at the time of Communism? It just sounds so unlikely since I tried to do so on Emperor and failed miserably. By the time I produced enough units, the AI already had more advanced tech. I guess I'll try this in a test game, but I'm still not sure how it would work.

Deity is beast, maybe I'll stop building courthouses in my cities with small empire. Maintenance still a pain in the butt, though. I guess on deity, you don't have time to spend on courthouse. Deity almost seems like an entirely different game from what I've read.

Since this has turned into a FM vs. SP conversation, I want to ask this- which is better for a mid sized empire- between 10 to 20 cities on a huge map?

It's all situational. I would, personally, consider victory type. If you are going to go domination, your best bet would be SP, workshop spam, and dominate. If you are going culture, I'd advocate for FM if using to generate your (by switching the slider) and good diplo. If conquest, you could go either way. I prefer to roll vassals and grant independence for captured overseas cities so I can keep my army moving and with more vassals come better trade routes so FM is my choice for that kind of victory. Space race is probably better with SP unless you've set yourself up for Mining Inc or Sid's Sushi in which case FM would be the better IMO. Diplomacy would probably benefit from Environmentalism to grow your populations as large as possible but if you can get votes from an AI with an economic "favorite civic" I would just use that one.

There seem to be some high level players (like drewisfat who is a strong deity player) who like SP in most situations so it is likely that you won't go wrong with SP workshop spam. I've never played deity level, so I can't speak to the absolute most optimal, but on Emperor, my advice seems to work well for me.

People in this thread seriously underestimate the value of mercantalism, IMO. Especially good for warmongers or panagaea.

Mercantalism, if you have representation also, is basically 6 science per city, plus multipliers obviously, plus lots of extra great person points. And trade routes are generally only worth 1-2 commerce on pangaea. You get way more out of mercantalism than free market unless you build a bunch of customs houses lol.

If you've already broken out and you have like 15+ cities, you're going to run out of foreign trade routes, so most of those cites are only going to have +1 commerce domestic routes, anyway. Also, vassal states count as domestic, so you'll still have some good trade routes for your bureau cap/oxford city, if you've vassalised anyone.

And a great person is worth, what, 2000 tech points or so late game? especially good with caste systems and a few high food cities. You can make several great person factories late game, all of which get +3 base great person/turn from mercantalism.

I play with free market almost every time. I am more of a diplomatic leader so I like to have
trade routes with others.
I almost never declare war, I just wait for them to do it.

In every situation where Mercantilism is better than Free Market State Property is even better.

nate45 said:

People in this thread seriously underestimate the value of mercantalism, IMO. Especially good for warmongers or panagaea.

Mercantalism, if you have representation also, is basically 6 science per city, plus multipliers obviously, plus lots of extra great person points. And trade routes are generally only worth 1-2 commerce on pangaea. You get way more out of mercantalism than free market unless you build a bunch of customs houses lol.

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Trade routes aren't only worth 1-2 with inter-civ trade in the mid game and later (even on pangaea). Inter-civ trade on the same continent is worth 2 before any multipliers kick in. Sure they're not as high as intercontinental trade routes, but on pangaea, you're probably better off with a SP, workshop spam, domination victory anyway.

If you've already broken out and you have like 15+ cities, you're going to run out of foreign trade routes, so most of those cites are only going to have +1 commerce domestic routes, anyway. Also, vassal states count as domestic, so you'll still have some good trade routes for your bureau cap/oxford city, if you've vassalised anyone.

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You get more than 1 per turn with size modifiers, but, yeah, domestic same-landmass trade routes are teh suck. With 15+ cities, you're way better off with SP than merc every time.

And a great person is worth, what, 2000 tech points or so late game? especially good with caste systems and a few high food cities. You can make several great person factories late game, all of which get +3 base great person/turn from mercantalism.

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1 extra specialist isn't going to make much difference in the late game unless you're running Pacif with a Philo leader and even then, you've probably exhausted enough GPP that one free specialist isn't making much difference. Bulbing is a waste of a late game GP IMO. Golden ages usually make for better use of them in most cases. The only situation that 1 free specialist will really help with a late game GP factory is if you've basically held off of making GP for most of the game. Although this can be useful for cultural victory, is not usually the best route to go unless you planned to get corps. In that case, FM is always better, though.

If you ask me, mercantilism really helps in early games that benefit from caste system (lots of food, little commerce) in which case your free specialist will make a great deal of difference in getting those early GP whose bulbs are actually very beneficial.

Imp. Knoedel said:

In every situation where Mercantilism is better than Free Market State Property is even better.

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hmm, to test this, i just opened up an old save with a conquest victory.

total number of cities: ~20

total distance to palace mainteance costs according to expenses screen: 61.

so state property saves 61/turn. mercantalism gives 20 specialists, which is way better.

also state property comes much later than mercantalism.

and what's so good about workshops, anyway?

blitzkrieg1980 said:

If you ask me, mercantilism really helps in early games that benefit from caste system (lots of food, little commerce) in which case your free specialist will make a great deal of difference in getting those early GP whose bulbs are actually very beneficial.

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and this is pretty much my point, but really, Banking = early game? I think we have totally different definitions of "early game"

...

anyhow, if you play this game like me ...

say and it's 800 ad and you have 25 recently conquered terrible cities, your research slider is stuck at 0 and your gpt is still negative, you're funding yourself by city capture, you're in the process of taking over the world with knights and catapult, and you just finished teching banking, and every civ on the planet is annoyed with you or worse.

in this situation, mercantalism can single-handedly triple your beaker output per turn. So it gets my vote, cause this is how i roll.

Although for you peacenics or spaceship people, i could see why you might like state property or free market

nate45 said:

and what's so good about workshops, anyway?

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You mean, what's so good about a 2F4H (or 1F5H) tile? It's just one of the best tiles before the very late game there is. A grasshill mine gives 1F3H, and one more hammer with railroads, that just can't compete with SP workshops.

Anyway, the discussion seems to have reached a dead end. But thanks to drewisfat for the thumbs up!

SP workshops will outproduce almost anything outside of a buffed prod corporation. Your scenario of 20 cities with a TOTAL distance maintenance of 61 per turn tells me your cities are all on one continent (Pangaea?) which is a special circumstance for having 20 cities. Banking isn't "early game" but it is much earlier than communism which is our comparison point AFAIR and that 1 free specialist will still actually have an effect and bulbs are still worth something. The last scenario you discuss is very situation specific so in that one case you are referring to of course Mercantilism is better. Not much of a comparison though, since you basically paint a portrait that can't use any other economic civic and you're cornered economically.

blitzkrieg1980 said:

Your scenario is pretty situation specific so in that one case you are referring to of course Mercantilism is better. Not much of a comparison though.

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I think its just a playstyle difference. The way i play (pangaea, warmonger) just lends itself to situations where mercantalism is almost always the best choice.

and maybe i should build more workshops, I never build them as they're kindof useless unless you are running state property and also caste. And if i'm running caste, and the tile doesn't already have a village/town, i could just make a bio farm instead and then use the extra food to make an extra specialist.

I guess workshops make sense for space race or nuke wars, though...

Even without SP or caste system, a post-chemistry workshop on grassland is the same yield as a grassland hill (the best non-resource production tile in the game)) 13 on any grassland tile is boss. Even better if riverside with a levee. SP and caste just overdrive them. They are very useful in non-nuke wars. I never use nukes.

I guess you can say it comes down to play style... but playing a specific map type (Pangaea) isn't really play style. And I'm quite the warmonger as 2/3 of my games are either conquest or domination. I'd give SP workshops a shot, man, especially if you are a domination player.