Where to build cities.

I agree with random leaders, when I host lobbies I usually request randomized leaders except when proper banning systems are possible. But even that requires some degree of randomization, I just like random leaders. Almost every other component of the game I select by hand, IE small Pangaea with strategic balance, low sea level, etc. I can't have fun with a poorly generated or balanced map but I can have fun with most any civ.
 
Some things you should never settle on imo: ...
Sheep hills: I personally never settle these. Settling on it or improving it and working it is both 2 food 2 production. Since settling on it does give the same yield as improving and working it some people do it anyway but I typically don't because there is no objective bonus to doing so. Only do it if it is the best possible spot for some reason. Otherwise you are just giving up the potential to work it later. Settling on a normal hill gives the same bonus and then you could be working the sheep too. Also you give up +1 hammer from stable later. More significant if it is a city with several pasture sites as you'll be building that very early.

I don't believe this is correct. You do get an extra hammer in the city tile for a stable. Otoh, if you settle on a cow (3F) the extra hammer from stable will be wasted as it will just replace the free one.
 
Yes but sheep are such nice tiles to work, I try not to settle them unless they're the only hill in the area. I love stable sheep pastures, especially with some other added bonus like desert folklore, Petra, or god of the open sky. They're one of my favorite standard tiles.
 
Like I said, many people settle on them, but I still see it as a loss. Sheep/hill is a wonderful tile to work to get nice boost to production and not halt your growth. It's one of the few very balanced tiles early game. Sure you get the same BASE yield settling on it as you would improving it, but you get that exact same base yield settling a normal hill as well and only 1 less production settling on flat ground even if it is snow. Personally if I see sheep hill in the first ring I try to avoid settling on it so I can work it. You'll come out ahead in most situations doing it this way, and way ahead if there was another hill to settle on and there often is.

Also, you are correct that stable gives you an extra +1 production to base tile. I thought it targeted pastures but it's the animal resources themselves. I'm happy to realize this. :)
 
I'll also point out with sheep. They are one of (if-not) the best unimproved tiles you can work for building settlers, so it is worth bearing that in mind when you place your capital
 
With all GP tile improvements, there is a "cost" associated with where you put them -- the lost yield from the alternative improvement that tile would otherwise receive. So, if you plant a GP on:
  • a non-riverside hill, you lose the option of improving that tile with a mine, leaving you with a tile yielding +2 hammers (hill) and +whatever the GP tile improvement provides

    Cost: -1 hammer (no mine), and an additional -1 hammer after Chemistry and another -1 hammer from Five Year Plan (if you go Order)

  • a sheep hill tile, you lose the option of improving the tile with a pasture, leaving you with a tile yielding +1 food (sheep), +2 hammers (hill), and +whatever the GP tile improvement provides

    Cost: -1 food (no pasture), and an additional -1 food after Fertilizer

  • a grasslands cow tile, you lose the option of improving the tile with a pasture, leaving you with a tile yielding +3 food (+1 from cow and +2 from grasslands), +1 hammer (stable), and +whatever the GP tile improvement provides

    Cost: -1 hammer (no pasture), and -1 food after Fertilizer

  • a plains horse tile, you lose the option of improving the tile with a pasture (but you still connect the horses), leaving you with a tile yielding +1 food (from plains), +3 hammer (+1 from plains, +1 from horse and +1 from stable), and +whatever the GP tile improvement provides

    Cost: -1 hammer (no pasture), and -1 food after Fertilizer
You can do similar analyses for other tile and resource combinations (riverside hills, riverside grassland, non-riverside grassland, etc.), but the point is that there is always a trade-off cost wherever you decide to plant your GPs. Your challenge is to choose the trade-off that makes the most sense for that particular game. For example, if you are hammer starved, but have oodles of farmland, you will probably want to settle on a food tile, rather than sacrifice the additional hammers from a mine.
 
With all GP tile improvements, there is a "cost" associated with where you put them -- the lost yield from the alternative improvement that tile would otherwise receive.
For GP improvements, the loss is mostly always 2 yield (exception is for 1 yield loss before Civil Service or Chemistry and 3 yield for Order on hill). So really for GP improvement, the only question up for debate is if it is important that the tile provide two food.

But is it not the case that GP improvement is a little different than settling? On a hill, a city nets one extra hammer, so that mitigates losing a pasture. Does not settling on a cow or horse cost an extra yield? (As compared to planting a GP on a cow or horse.) I always get confused about which buildings add to the city and which add to the tile!
 
I put my academies on tiles that provide a total yield of at least four without the academy. My favorites are non-river wheat, cows with a stable already in the city, horses with a stable already in the city, sheep with a stable already in the city, and plains deer with no camp already built. I hate planting on bare hills because I love mines, and I mentally discount fertilizer because it's usually quite late unless you're planning on arty rush. So I don't think about pastures (unless I have no stable in my cap, which is rare by the time I've got scientists to plant), or non-river wheats. One yield, whether a hammer or an apple, is usually worth a nice tile to work for my academy. Of course if I have an absurd growth capital I may plant on a standard flatland tile, but that's only if I have citizens with nothing else to do.
 
I didn't mean to suggest that settling on a hill sheep was a good idea, just pointing out a small error in a otherwise very informative post that I will refer to again.

Can I ask, when considering where to settle the capital, does the presence of the palace make a difference? An extra production from a hill is only a 25% boost (at most) for example.
 
In quick speed, settling on a hill and working at least one hammer means equal time with your first scout and one turn more with your second one. I can only imagine it scales massively by game pace. Settling on a hill makes your capital defensible, it makes ranged garrisons more effective, and it gives you a super crucial early hammer which means faster scouting, settlers, and workers. I've softened my stance on tradition as of late after getting a few tradition-friendly random games, where I had great capitals or Petras. Even still, I say that it's absolutely crucial to have a hill cap when playing tradition.
 
I didn't mean to suggest that settling on a hill sheep was a good idea, just pointing out a small error in a otherwise very informative post that I will refer to again.

It's not a bad idea either. If you had two neighboring tiles: a river hill and a river hill with sheep on it, from the tile yields point of view you can settle either one since in both cases the city tile will net 2f2h and you get to work a tile with 2f2h in the city radius. The difference is that you only have 2f2h on the normal hill after civil service, and you are unable to build a stable for the +1 hammer in case that sheep was the only pasture resource around the city (but it is debatable if building a stable is worth it in that case). So if you get good tiles in the 3rd ring by settling on the sheep, or get a better position overall there is very little to lose by settling there.
 
Isn't settling on Deer make your city yield 3f 2h. Same as a Deer Camp? Again, depending on what that puts in your workable tile range, I think that's a good spot to settle.
 
Can I ask, when considering where to settle the capital, does the presence of the palace make a difference?
Yes, because it makes the hill buff less noticeable, less crucial.

If you had two neighboring tiles: a river hill and a river hill with sheep on it...
I would much rather settle the river hill and work the sheep than plant on the sheep and work the wet hill. Wet hill is just okay, but the sheep tiles are always keepers. So by sparing the sheep for settling, you add one good tile to the city.

I really think it is just copper/silver/gold that has almost no opportunity cost when it come to planting on a special tile. Yes, settling spoils the tile for working (which I just said was a bad idea for sheep) but by having a lux online early makes up for that.
 
I would adjust beetles list to the following:
for resources the only ones with little to no opportunity cost when you settle on them is: copper/silver/gold/gems/iron hills and desert incense. Every other resources you settle there is an opportunity cost, some small others large.

Why are these basically no-brainers? Well for every tile you settle on you give up working it, so no matter what you don't want to settle on a resource unless it gives you an objective bonus (greater early yield). Then you want to make sure that bonus is greater then settling somewhere else and later working the tile. In the case of all the hills luxes as beetle says you give up 1 gold and 1 production from not being able to mine and work it. However, it is very unlikely you would have the spare food to work a no-food tile for a long time anyway. In the meantime you get the lux connected immediately without moving workers out there, get 2 gpt way earlier then you could have otherwise, and an extra +1 production to the base tile, along with extra city defense. I see iron/hill in the same category. For most of the game you only gave up 1 hammer from settling on it rather then working. You couldn't work it for a long time anyway since it has no food, and settling on it gives you 3 hammers, even better then a normal hill making your city produce stuff, much, much faster early. lastly, you can hardly ever work desert incense since it is a pure-gold tile. You can't afford to get only 3 gold for a citizen which hurts your food and production. But if you settle on it that tile suddenly becomes 2 food, 1 hammer, and 2 gold. You gave up 1 gold for 2 food and a hammer. This is a rare example of a net positive opportunity cost. Unfortunately unless the tile is coastal it's often in a bad spot to settle, but there have been a few times where it wasn't for me. Pretty much any tile with some base food is worth avoiding settling on as you get more yield by settling a worse tile and working it. An exception I might make would be if I was in plains and there were calendar resources about that would be hard to work due to their poor food. I might settle on one to get the early lux connection so I could put off researching calendar and get 2 gpt much earlier then usual. This does have an opportunity cost though of 1 gold but it gives you an extra 1 food in return. Even though this seems like a net win, it may not be enough to justify giving up the nice tile to work later. But given it's just gold and the city is food-poor it's not too bad of a trade. I may get a better city by settling the lux, giving up plantation, and farming the surrounding plains. It's basically trading gold for food which is a good deal. In the case of grass it gives you a trade of 1 gold for 1 hammer, but I find grass calendar resources workable much earlier then plains ones and these cities also aren't hurting for food so I am more reluctant to settle them. All this analysis excludes boosts to food/production that come in industrial as about 2/3 of the game is earlier then that.

Isn't settling on Deer make your city yield 3f 2h. Same as a Deer Camp? Again, depending on what that puts in your workable tile range, I think that's a good spot to settle.

Well usually it is a bad call in my opinion. I'll try to explain why: the way it works is the game clears all forest, jungle, marsh, etc, when you settle and looks at the base yield. If it is worse then 2f1h then it rounds it up to 2f1h. If you have more then 2f, more then 1h, or more then 0 gold, faith, culture, etc. it adds the extra amount to your base tile.

In the case of deer, deer add 1 food to the tile they are on and after the camp add 1 production to the tile. With a granary this becomes 3f 2h in forest or flat plains which is what you quote. However, if you clear and the underlying terrain was grassland it is 4f 1h.

Now, if you settle on it, the forest gets cleared and the base tile is 2f 1h on plains or 3f on grass, and 2f on tundra. You get no bonus whatsoever, therefore, for settling on a deer with underlying plains or tundra. You get a bonus of 1 food for settling on grass deer for a base tile of 3f 1h. Base tile deer are still buffed by granary but you always give up the yield from the camp so no matter what you'll never get 2 hammers out of the tile if you settle on it. You also won't get the extra +1 gold after economics. This is why it's a bad deal. At most you get 1 extra food from the base tile when you first settle on it, but you do lose hammers if it was a forest or plains deer. Camps come very early as well so you start operating on a loss if you settle on it very early. Also, since the food is always 2 or more the tile is better to work.

Even if it was break-even for the actual tile yield (like a flat tundra or grass deer) I wouldn't recommend it because you give up a nice tile to work so you end up losing. If you settle on the tundra deer in our example your base tile is 2f 1h (same as improving and working deer!) but your other tiles of tundra are worse. You would have been better off settling on and improving the tundra then working the deer so you have two 2f 1h tiles! Same goes for flat grassland deer. You could settle on the deer and get the same yield of 3f 1h as improving it with camp, however, if you settle somewhere else and work the tile, you end up getting an extra hammer out of the deal which in grassland is a better deal then just another flat farming site.

In general if you settle on something you want to think beyond the tile itself to the total effect on the city. Even if settling on it is the same as working it usually you are still losing something as resource tiles are nicer then normal tiles. You'd be better off settling and improving a bad tile or a hill if one is around for greater overall effect. If what you settled on would be hard to work anyway you give up almost nothing, and actually gain if the base yield is pretty good (some hill resources) reasoning cited above.

I omit sheep, stone, and marble from this category though. The reason being sheep tiles are very early workable at 2f 2h so better to not settle on it and work it. It is the earliest source of 2f 2h tile too so the net effect of leaving it and quickly improving/working it is better then any other. Someone cited an example of hills near water, but settling on the sheep is still worse in this situation because you don't get 2f 2h from the farmed hill till after civil service, which is way, way later then animal husbandry. You're giving up almost 80 turns of that extra 1 food doing it the other way around. Marble and stone I omit because even though they look like iron/hill they aren't Why? Because of stone-works. Stone works you can build super early and it buffs stone and marble by 1 and adds an extra happiness. But you only can do this if you have quarries and you can't build a quarry if you settle on them. So unlike iron settling on them you give up 2 hammer and 1 happiness if they were the only resources around. If there are 2 stone resources you still give up 2 early hammers instead of just 1 but it is an ok strategy if you don't have to give up stone works because there is another one nearby.
 
Question I don't know the answer to:

When you settle on a snow hill is the snow cleared like forest/jungle/marsh/and flood plains? What does the base tile become? If it becomes tundra you should get: 2 food 2 hammers from settling on that snow hill making it by far the best positive in the game improving a base 0 tile to a 4-yield tile. If the underlying terrain remains snow it will probably be 2 food 1 hammer same as any flat snow meaning it's useless since you also gave up windmill to do it for no benefit (well a bit of city defense I guess). Has anyone done this and can confirm? If it really is 2 food 2 hammers I would say never settle a snow city not on a hill, the benefit is too good. Mined snow hills even after industrial are only 2 hammers.
 
...for resources the only ones with little to no opportunity cost when you settle on them is: copper/silver/gold/gems/iron hills and desert incense.
Thanks for including those three additional resources! Thanks also for taking the time to explain the reasoning!
 
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