danaphanous
religious fanatic
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2013
- Messages
- 1,501
yeah I thought the required pop for full hurry was lower too. That definitely makes space procurement better for rushing parts, especially on Deity where the AI have thousands of gold to take out loans for lol. Also the upside of Space Procurements is that you don't need to use your faith to purchase engineers and can get 2-3 extra scientists.
Personally I think the tenet to hurry SPs with engineers is pretty worthless given this information--I wouldn't take it at all if it didn't give the free scientist and engineer. But the fact that it does basically makes it more objectively powerful then space procurements for me. Why? That's another 8 turns off my science AND my last part reduced to 1-2 turns. So 8-2 = 6 turns faster. This is because the last part is the limiting factor in order.
My order cities can already build spaceship parts in 5-10 turns after I buy nuke plants and spaceship factories and with order and commerce discounts I'm only buying these things at 33% of cost so even cheaper then hurrying 1 part with space procurements. This means the only thing that adds a few turns as I'm bulbing through the info era is the very last part. I just did a wide game where I saved my strongest production cities for the last 2 parts, bulbed my 11 scientists straight from apollo through the info era, and only lost 1 turn on production on the last part because my best city built the thing in 5 turns after the tech and the other cities still hadn't finished the first. So worst-case scenario you're maybe finishing 5 turns behind space procurement tradition even skipping the engineer tenet. Taking the tenet I get a free scientist AND don't lose 5 turns. I lose maybe 1-2.
And arguably, if you run your specialists and get factories earlier I think you may be able to get a faster rate then freedom at the end so it should be at least break-even given space procurements is objectively more powerful for quick-buying the very last part. Freedom looks better on paper but there isn't really enough time for the growth from half-food specialists to start beating the factory tenet if you are finishing fast near T200 so I still think the factory tenet is better--especially if you've got a wider empire since the higher happiness from order lets you grow it a bit more too and you get the boost in every city. If anyone is managing to grow to near size 40 by the end of a T200 victory I may be wrong but I can't see it happening without some weird luck like early hanging gardens or lake victoria and 2-3 constant food cargo routes.
in my games (and I'm not a record player) I get ideologies by building/buying 3 factories. This might happen conservatively 80-90 turns before I can end the game with my final scientist bulb push.
Just some quick points for a city comparing the two science ideological tenets from order vs. freedom:
Order: 25% flat boost to science AND factories in half-time. So I simply build factory in fastest 1-2 cities and buy the slowest one for a quick ideology, timed to get this tenet in a few turns with a natural culture tenet. It also has more immediate happiness so you aren't limited in growth in any way after ideologies and can grow even a big empire max-rate to start filling out specialists boosted by rationalism. Turn all trade routes to food routes several turns before it. Order is also safer if you've neglected tourism as most games a majority of AI take it.
Freedom: half unhappiness from specialists, half food from specialists
the only way this helps science is if in those 80 turns you can somehow grow enough to produce MORE science then a flat 25% boost to the city. The half-food and unhappiness from specialists is nice and definitely makes you grow faster but the food it adds is only:
4xengineer, 4xscientist, 4xgold. Totaled this is 12 extra food after you run every one, same as a food ship but less before you can use every specialist. In practice it probably starts after you take the tenet at 4 extra food and slowly increases to 12 as you grow. I'm not sure that you can translate that into MORE science then 25% boost to every city in your empire but it will grow you several pop higher probably. Keep in mind though that in a jungle city or near academies the factory multiplier operates on the terrain, population, AND specialists science. Not to mention factories are suddenly half-price meaning easy to build.
An exception to my above estimates might be Korea. Given they get even more science from specialists it's possible getting them all up a bit faster is better, but even with order you get 25% on all the specialists you DO run along with the population and terrain science.
Personally I think the tenet to hurry SPs with engineers is pretty worthless given this information--I wouldn't take it at all if it didn't give the free scientist and engineer. But the fact that it does basically makes it more objectively powerful then space procurements for me. Why? That's another 8 turns off my science AND my last part reduced to 1-2 turns. So 8-2 = 6 turns faster. This is because the last part is the limiting factor in order.
My order cities can already build spaceship parts in 5-10 turns after I buy nuke plants and spaceship factories and with order and commerce discounts I'm only buying these things at 33% of cost so even cheaper then hurrying 1 part with space procurements. This means the only thing that adds a few turns as I'm bulbing through the info era is the very last part. I just did a wide game where I saved my strongest production cities for the last 2 parts, bulbed my 11 scientists straight from apollo through the info era, and only lost 1 turn on production on the last part because my best city built the thing in 5 turns after the tech and the other cities still hadn't finished the first. So worst-case scenario you're maybe finishing 5 turns behind space procurement tradition even skipping the engineer tenet. Taking the tenet I get a free scientist AND don't lose 5 turns. I lose maybe 1-2.
And arguably, if you run your specialists and get factories earlier I think you may be able to get a faster rate then freedom at the end so it should be at least break-even given space procurements is objectively more powerful for quick-buying the very last part. Freedom looks better on paper but there isn't really enough time for the growth from half-food specialists to start beating the factory tenet if you are finishing fast near T200 so I still think the factory tenet is better--especially if you've got a wider empire since the higher happiness from order lets you grow it a bit more too and you get the boost in every city. If anyone is managing to grow to near size 40 by the end of a T200 victory I may be wrong but I can't see it happening without some weird luck like early hanging gardens or lake victoria and 2-3 constant food cargo routes.
in my games (and I'm not a record player) I get ideologies by building/buying 3 factories. This might happen conservatively 80-90 turns before I can end the game with my final scientist bulb push.
Just some quick points for a city comparing the two science ideological tenets from order vs. freedom:
Order: 25% flat boost to science AND factories in half-time. So I simply build factory in fastest 1-2 cities and buy the slowest one for a quick ideology, timed to get this tenet in a few turns with a natural culture tenet. It also has more immediate happiness so you aren't limited in growth in any way after ideologies and can grow even a big empire max-rate to start filling out specialists boosted by rationalism. Turn all trade routes to food routes several turns before it. Order is also safer if you've neglected tourism as most games a majority of AI take it.
Freedom: half unhappiness from specialists, half food from specialists
the only way this helps science is if in those 80 turns you can somehow grow enough to produce MORE science then a flat 25% boost to the city. The half-food and unhappiness from specialists is nice and definitely makes you grow faster but the food it adds is only:
4xengineer, 4xscientist, 4xgold. Totaled this is 12 extra food after you run every one, same as a food ship but less before you can use every specialist. In practice it probably starts after you take the tenet at 4 extra food and slowly increases to 12 as you grow. I'm not sure that you can translate that into MORE science then 25% boost to every city in your empire but it will grow you several pop higher probably. Keep in mind though that in a jungle city or near academies the factory multiplier operates on the terrain, population, AND specialists science. Not to mention factories are suddenly half-price meaning easy to build.
An exception to my above estimates might be Korea. Given they get even more science from specialists it's possible getting them all up a bit faster is better, but even with order you get 25% on all the specialists you DO run along with the population and terrain science.