Why Liberty as opposed to Tradition.

Manpanzee said:

I think peaceful Liberty is underrated due to people typically misplaying it. The things that are fundamentally most important are the same whether you take Tradition or Liberty -- of course Liberty is going to look bad if you think opening Liberty means that growing cities is any less important.

In my opinion, the number of cities that you want to build is the same whether you're Liberty or Tradition, and you still want to grow these cities as big as possible either way. The difference is really timing. Liberty can typically get one more city than Tradition pre-National College, while Tradition is often better served delaying more of its expos until after the National College.

Liberty and Tradition both have their strengths and weaknesses, but your evaluations of these trees aren't going to be right if you think of it in terms of "going tall" or "going wide". With both trees, the goal is to "go big".

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I respectfully disagree. People are playing liberty wrong because they think they need to grow the cities as fast as possible. First of all I want to say that liberty is not synonymous with wide, while tradition is not synonymous with tall. Although liberty is best played wide and tradition best played tall.

Liberty-wide get their total population from higher number of cities. Tradition-tall get their total population from higher average pop per city. The total pop is ultimately limited by happiness. You invest more happiness in number of cities for liberty-wide than tradition-tall. But you also presumably get more happiness by owning more luxes and local happiness buildings in a liberty-wide game. So the per city science penalty for a liberty game is offset by the higher possible total population.

NC for a liberty-wide game can be delayed and less crucial than a tradition-tall game. The bonus of NC is magnified by population in a single city. But in a liberty-wide game, not a single city will have a lot of pop until mid-late game. Aqueducts are unnecessary for most cities until mid-late game and early growth can actually ruin a wide strategy.

Liberty-wide get their total population from higher number of cities. Tradition-tall get their total population from higher average pop per city. The total pop is ultimately limited by happiness. You invest more happiness in number of cities for liberty-wide than tradition-tall. But you also presumably get more happiness by owning more luxes and local happiness buildings in a liberty-wide game. So the per city science penalty for a liberty game is offset by the higher possible total population.

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But your low pop cities are production poor (you probably can't run that many hammer tiles) and increase all national wonder build times. You also can't run specialists. If you're going to run some low pop cities, even if total pop is same as a tradition game, please show me how your game looks like in the T150 or T200.

I can't imagine what you're saying being competitive due to the huge delay you will put on getting your science running.

Acken said:

But your low pop cities are production poor (you probably can't run that many hammer tiles) and increase all national wonder build times. You also can't run specialists. If you're going to run some low pop cities, even if total pop is same as a tradition game, please show me how your game looks like in the T150 or T200.

I can't imagine what you're saying being competitive due to the huge delay you will put on getting your science running.

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I will post replays when I get home in a couple of days.

beetle said:

Liberty, the most valuable perk is the half price settlers. The fewer you build, the more that is wasted.

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See, this is kind of exactly what I'm talking about. The number of cities you want is going to be determined by the map conditions, and a possible 50% bonus to Settler production is very far down the list of important factors. If you feel compelled to build more Settlers so as to not "waste" a particular policy bonus, you run the risk of overexpanding out of a desire to retroactively justify a policy choice.

The 50% Settler bonus is just one part of one policy. It's ok to not take full advantage of it. If a map calls for only three cities, then it's ok to stay in three cities. It's not like all your Liberty policies turn into blanks if you do that.

Manpanzee said:

See, this is kind of exactly what I'm talking about. The number of cities you want is going to be determined by the map conditions, and a possible 50% bonus to Settler production is very far down the list of important factors. If you feel compelled to build more Settlers so as to not "waste" a particular policy bonus, you run the risk of overexpanding out of a desire to retroactively justify a policy choice.

The 50% Settler bonus is just one part of one policy. It's ok to not take full advantage of it. If a map calls for only three cities, then it's ok to stay in three cities. It's not like all your Liberty policies turn into blanks if you do that.

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Sure, and good player can certainly win at Immortal with just a 3-city Liberty start. I've certainly done it. But in doing so, you've erred, as a Tradition start would have been superior.

Acken: with the bonus food/production/happiness from freedom you can run max specialists in 15 pop cities and have good enough production to build the specialist buildings in a timely fashion. This is of course extra strong as korea but it works with many other civs. (12 from scientists +12*4 specialists + 7 PS and RL + 30 population)*2.1 [rationalism] = 200 science for a 15 pop city regardless of terrain. You do not need any buildings except granary, specialist and perhaps happyness. You do not need to work that many food tiles as you are just growing to size 15 ish. You can quite easily win science at deity in the very low 200s with this strategy.

This is still a bold claim. Please prove it's competitive, with a game or a SS, I'm capable to do the maths.

Liberty is miles better than Tradition for Domination victory if you use/abuse the ability to rebuild demolished tiles in one turn with the Pyramids wonder. Like, there is really no contest. Pair this with Denmark for maximum insanity. Maybe some people could argue Science Victory is superior to Domination but I don't think that is a particularly helpful analysis.

I also get the sense people are envisioning a very specific type of map--Pangea, which is by far the easiest of all of them simply because it is so predictable at letting you contact other civs + city states. Again especially for Domination victory where you actually have to consider getting all the way to other continents to conquer people.

Two different games: A slower one with egypt in tundra:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13468060&postcount=82

And a faster one with Korea but only 5 cities (insufficient land to expand to and eternal war with the aztecs.)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vdxrxtl175fmsbe/2014-08-28_00003.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/77l517fuotcyx4o/2014-08-28_00004.jpg?dl=0

These were my first two tries at deity so I am sure that better player could cut down those times.

[edit] Fixed the links in the linked post

I thought this debate was resolved some time ago. Liberty is hands-down better for Dom than Tradition. I know this as not even a very good player. I have actually replayed games using both paths and have had a much harder time using Tradition. Even some cultural victories (with war) can be better. I've replayed these too. When you have 20 cities and they are all making culture and tourism, it cannot be compared to 3 or 4.

Sure, science victories are easiest with 3-5 cities and turtling, but they are REALLY boring. Peaceful CV is the same with a different late BO and a few SP differences. But basically just turtle and tech.

The only exciting way to play, IMO, is to expand your empire across the world. And it's way easier to do with Liberty than Tradition.

@Chumchu: I think your links are broken.

Manpanzee said:

The number of cities you want is going to be determined by the map conditions...

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I agree completely. Those map conditions determine if you open Liberty or Tradition.

...a possible 50% bonus to Settler production is very far down the list of important factors.

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It's the strongest early perk of the Liberty tree, and if you are not going to be making use of it (because the map only provides room for 3-4 early cities) then open Tradition.

If you feel compelled to build more Settlers so as to not "waste" a particular policy bonus, you run the risk of overexpanding out of a desire to retroactively justify a policy choice.

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I agree completely. I would argue that Liberty is actually less forgiving when it comes to city locations. But you opened Liberty only because there were 6+ good sites to settle early.

If a map calls for only three cities, then it's ok to stay in three cities.

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Absolutely, but it not okay to have gone with Liberty in that situation.

It's not like all your Liberty policies turn into blanks if you do that.

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Yeah, but for so small an empire, as Nick31 points out, the player would have been much, much better using Tradition.

The difficulty I have is that, even with two scouts as first builds, the decision to open Liberty or Tradition sometimes is still just a guess.

beetle said:

The difficulty I have is that, even with two scouts as first builds, the decision to open Liberty or Tradition sometimes is still just a guess.

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Which is exactly why I almost always open Tradition, even if I'm going to go full liberty or lib/trad mix. The early culture boost almost makes up for the extra policy cost to finish liberty and I'd argue that the faster border expansion has the potential to offset that extra policy cost. This also somewhat negates the need to prioritize monument in capital, and compliments it if you do.

Shark Diver said:

The early culture boost almost makes up for the extra policy cost to finish liberty and I'd argue that the faster border expansion has the potential to offset that extra policy cost.

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I should try it, see what it feels like, but I struggle enough with Liberty. That first settler comes too late as-is. No real harm, I don't think, with delaying the finishing to Liberty. But delaying the worker and settler?

beetle said:

I should try it, see what it feels like, but I struggle enough with Liberty. That first settler comes too late as-is. No real harm, I don't think, with delaying the finishing to Liberty. But delaying the worker and settler?

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We could do an "in a vacuum" comparison on how many turns it actually delays the settler/worker, but the game isn't played in a vacuum. It's likely around 5 turns, and certainly less than 10. I think it makes a difference if you get an early culture hut. In any event, getting to work good tiles earlier without having to buy them is pretty powerful.

Also, I don't find delaying the free worker to be a big issue, mostly because, by that time, you probably have stolen at least 2 workers, so the free one isn't quite as incrementally important. The settler delay, if we agree it is by 5 turns, can be important, which is why I generally will be building my 1st expo and settle it around 5 turns before the free settler pops (yeah, I know, building a settler before it becomes half off is inefficient, but I'm addressing a crowded map scenario). One thing about my play style is that I'm very aggressive in getting settlers out, often doing so before granary/library/caravan. I just get too angry when my neighbor grabs a coveted expo site (I'm looking at you Alex).

I know this thread is Tradition vs. Liberty, but I'm still a proponent of the Lib/Trad mix in many games. I will note that this approach was weakened with the patch, but I still managed a t250 SV doing it recently, and that's very fast for me.

My "Petra Gambit" assumes full Liberty, though. I had tried it with the mixed approach and it takes special terrain features to justify the Trad opener. My point is that a settler/worker delay is not as important as a delay when going for a coveted Wonder with the GE.

beetle said:

I should try it, see what it feels like, but I struggle enough with Liberty. That first settler comes too late as-is. No real harm, I don't think, with delaying the finishing to Liberty. But delaying the worker and settler?

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Your free settler comes too late because you're not doing a monument start and you're used to the beginning traditional +3 culture. If you had a monument start with tradition, you'll probably get through traditional social policies sooner and then get the free amphitheatre later when you research poetry and drama.

Shark Diver said:

Also, I don't find delaying the free worker to be a big issue, mostly because, by that time, you probably have stolen at least 2 workers, so the free one isn't quite as incrementally important.

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This is the biggest difference then. I like the Contents+ script, but that usually puts the CS out of early reach. Plus I am just bad at early warfare. So the worker from the SP is my first one.

I will note that this approach was weakened with the patch, but I still managed a t250 SV doing it recently, and that's very fast for me.

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I have so far to go! My faster games are with about a t350 SV!

reddishrecue said:

Your free settler comes too late because you're not doing a monument start and you're used to the beginning traditional +3 culture.

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My build order, Liberty or Tradition (post patch) is: scout, scout, monument, shrine.

I think its my worker-stealing difficulty that makes my starts slow. For Liberty, it means I cannot give up the free one before getting the settlers started.

I am encouraged from this thread though to try Liberty after opening Tradition. That gives me more time to assess if the map supports going wide, and more time to worker-steal before first Liberty policy (if I do go wide).

beetle said:

This is the biggest difference then. I like the Contents+ script, but that usually puts the CS out of early reach. Plus I am just bad at early warfare. So the worker from the SP is my first one.



I have so far to go! My faster games are with about a t350 SV!



My build order, Liberty or Tradition (post patch) is: scout, scout, monument, shrine.

I think its my worker-stealing difficulty that makes my starts slow. For Liberty, it means I cannot give up the free one before getting the settlers started.

I am encouraged from this thread though to try Liberty after opening Tradition. That gives me more time to assess if the map supports going wide, and more time to worker-steal before first Liberty policy (if I do go wide).

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I admire your ability to like playing Continents +. In the IDS thread game that I posted the start for, I complained non-stop about the mechanics of Continents +. Not only does it make worker steals and alliances difficult, it really opens up the forward settling for AI's.

That said, I still managed to steal 2 and march them across the continent in time to help build Great Lighthouse, but I also had time to build 1. I never did take the free worker from the policy.

A note on worker steals: Keep track of where early barb camps are. Then, after t20 when you think all goody huts are gone, stop by those camps and see how many workers they have captured. There is absolutely no reason to destroy barb camps that are near an AI or CS unless it is to satisfy a request. I also find myself deleting a worker or 2 by mid-game.

As for t350 SV, that can turn into t300 or better soon enough. Keep playing. The reason I can't break the t250 barrier like some other here do regularly is that I tend to stress safety over time. I also don't rush/buy science buildings like some others do, as I have a tendency to hoard or find other uses for gold. It's also why I am not as good at warmongering as others. To improve on t350 SV, you probably just need to skip a few of the non-essential buildings. When a science building becomes available, stop just about everything else and build those buildings. The other key is timing your GS bulbs. It's game dependent, but later is almost always better.

I used to worker steal but I don't do it anymore because it is too time consuming and too dependent on others unless the other worker is about 4 or 5 tiles away from my borders or something and easy to keep. However, city states find worker stealing annoying and become more difficult to influence. Workers captured by barbarians especially from city states are good to return because it's really worth it to have that city state influence for awhile since you already have too many of you own workers anyway.

chumchu said:

Two different games: A slower one with egypt in tundra:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13468060&postcount=82

And a faster one with Korea but only 5 cities (insufficient land to expand to and eternal war with the aztecs.)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vdxrxtl175fmsbe/2014-08-28_00003.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/77l517fuotcyx4o/2014-08-28_00004.jpg?dl=0

These were my first two tries at deity so I am sure that better player could cut down those times.

[edit] Fixed the links in the linked post

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It's true I remember you from a thread.

The first game is interesting since you went with 7 cities none above 25pop.
The other one you played like a tradition start so it doesn't really support the previous idea.

I may give it some tries, been a while I haven't played Liberty seriously. I'm doubtful it can beat my best times with Tradition (below T210) but it looks worthy of a shot still.

For the Egypt game did you take a happy religion ? And how did you use the finisher ? How many cities before NC ?

By the way I'm a Freedom player as proved by the Order vs Freedom thread so my interrogation is only on Librty not Freedom I'm a lot more curious about your early game than your post ideology one.

Acken said:

But your low pop cities are production poor (you probably can't run that many hammer tiles) and increase all national wonder build times. You also can't run specialists. If you're going to run some low pop cities, even if total pop is same as a tradition game, please show me how your game looks like in the T150 or T200.

I can't imagine what you're saying being competitive due to the huge delay you will put on getting your science running.

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I agree with Vitruvius 100%. Why do you think that low population city cannot run production tiles? 4 tiles city built on hill with colleseum and circus doesn't actually bring any unhappiness and works on Horses, Stone and Mine will have 12+ production very early, which is a lot. (This even doesn't include possible unique luxury.)

If map allows - It is obvious that wide liberty has much more production than tall tradition, because of 2 reasons (+ very valuable Republic policy):
- wide liberty works more resource tiles. So 40 population in 3 cities will have ~12 resource tiles at most and 40 population in 7 cities will have 35 resource tiles
- tall tradition must work a lot of food tiles to grow (= tiles without production), while wide liberty can easily grow without food tiles at all as long as happiness allows. The key here is that Tall Tradition must work a lot of farms to remain competitive, while wide liberty can just work production tiles and still grow or expand if map allows.

Having more prooduction will make you very competitive and once your cities start having Universities = you have as much Science as needed to close the gap and be first in scince.