Sandkasten

Hmmmm.... is it possible to get the best of both worlds? In our ideal scenario (which is this one http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9070009&postcount=52), we research Masonry before the Oracle is completed -- technically we don't need Masonry until the GE pops, so could we work Fishing into the tech path and still be on pace for turn 47?

I know we build some Warriors that won't really be necessary since barbs, so we can get the hammers for the workboat(s) there.

Can we make it work? Can we get boats out and still build Oracle by turn 47?
 
Well, if anyone wants to trade off Oracle & Mids for an earlier scout-boat... I think they are nuts.

I wouldn't even want to stall the oracle by a turn if I don't have to.

The work boat is potentially very powerful - if we wind up meeting someone and taking part in an early tech alliance, that would be worth much more than Metal Casting. Similarly, if we don't send out a work boat and get the Oracle, MC and the 'Mids, they're not going to save our asses when this alliance comes calling.

Making friends is *the* single most important thing to do early on in these games. If we're out of the loop diplomatically, we're toast, Oracle or not.
 
@v8 mark:

i disagree on this one, since with this gambit we should be advanced enough not to fall out of potential tech alliance. We should have work boat somewhere by T50 or so. We can also expect to be contacted by someone else first, since we can expect that a lot of civs will send scouting WB before us. Delaying the gambit will give us more hard time later on since we are SPI and mids would give us a large edge when competing against other FIN civs. I just hope not to run into Amazons first, since i expect them to fall behind fairly soon because their tactic seems to be dumped in water so to speak. As it appears this game will be more on the slow side due to outlay fo the map. So no early scouting will not kill us.
 
Here is the template for TURN 10:
 

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Delaying gambit is a bad move, exploration is very important but not for risking Oracle. Now the GLH is out, Colossus will be high on other teams agendas, really it should be Triremes but I'm guessing they are all wetting themselves to build the bronze monster.
 
It is POSSIBLE that no one else has sea-food too, and they are just pretending that the Colossus is OP on this map to throw off speculation. But I don't think that is what's really occuring here. Especially when looking at the demographics.
 
I had a quick try at slipping in Fishing after BW... Not good.

Actually, with so little land (meaning - no fogbusting required), we almost have nothing useful to build after the first warrior (one warrior fogbusts, the other fortifies in Delhi... hm, Jahaaz), but we can't grow to 3 without putting some hammers into another, and Fishing's not even close to complete...
 
I had a quick try at slipping in Fishing after BW... Not good.

You could have saved the time by using the COMMON-SENSE principle :p But glad that we can finally agree on paths now.

Contrary to your belief, we do have useful things to build. We need 3 warriors just to use as happy controls on our island with our minimal 3-city plan. And then we need even more to have ready by sailing to use for the other island(s).

In other words, we simply won't be able to get enough warriors fast enough, especially with that horrendous OF bug that really makes whipping warriors silly.

Remember kids, any time you whip a warrior, a micro-manager somewhere else dies a horrible death.
 
Another worrisome thought hit me the other night. It is quite possible one leader will beeline Oracle and use it to grab something quick and dirty like IronWorking. Not so much for the tech-value, but for the pure reasons of denial to anyone else.
 
Another worrisome thought hit me the other night. It is quite possible one leader will beeline Oracle and use it to grab something quick and dirty like IronWorking. Not so much for the tech-value, but for the pure reasons of denial to anyone else.
I don't see any team doing that. Basically they would be "taking one for the team", sacrificing their own growth for no gain, but there's no team to take anything for here.

Or, in other words: if one team (us) tries for an actual Oracle gambit, and another team claims Oracle for pure denial, the winners are the other 4 teams.
 
I don't agree. If they knew what we were doing, taking a small penalty is better than taking a larger one by not wanting to take the smaller one.

I hope that makes sense.

Anyhow, I hope they all think your way for the next 40 turns :p
 
They may all hope that one of the other teams take that small penalty. ;)
 
IMO, even if we miss Oracle gambit our tech path isn't bad. If we get a religion from Poly it's already a winner.

If not, then a lot of what we have reasearched is still useful - puts us online for a nice early Monarchy, which is strong anyway?
 
i did a short test, following this dotmap:
dotmap
settling jellow first.

result is that we get oracle same turn (46) but mono and forge a turn later. this is because worker actions have to be timed different and because city 2 grows slower and therefore we have less commerce.

i dont think this option is worse, cause without stone and math no other team will be able to chop the mids at turn 70. given that all starting islands are the same, getting stone somewhere on the central island / other islands connected in time isnt very realistic i´d say, so slowing mids down a turn is ok i think.

so our decision is:
a) central city as holy jewish city (later shrine)
b) costal city as holy jewish city (later with shrine)

im not decided so far, but tend to vote for the costal city due to massive gain in trade income (harbour, later custom house). the central location is also a littel weak on hammers on the long run, cause the capital will need all hills in bfc...

concerning dotmaps:
we have a ok starting island. we only have to make sure, we get 2 cities running specialists, 1 city on production and capital hybrid with cottages i guess, so above mentioned dotmap looks close to ideal:

green production
red, yellow specialists
capital hybrid with 4 cottages
(1 farm is needed to bring water to green). with 2 dye and 2 diamonds in bfc, we still have 8 strong money tiles for capital and therefore a strong bureau-capital that can pay a big rex overseas without slowing research down too much and still giving us flexibility on the slider (slider too close to 0% is bad in my opinion, cause it may come the time when we need to collect some money for upgrading and/or raise the spy slider...)
 
Yellow with no time loss is nice work! :)

I'm a touch concerned about having all our cities coastal due to the mid-late game razing issue... but what can ya do!
 
As King Morgan said in the dot-map thread:

"If any of the 3 cities are potentiality vulnerable to coastal razing, pre optics, by enemies then it's too late, we've lost already. "
 
As King Morgan said in the dot-map thread:

"If any of the 3 cities are potentiality vulnerable to coastal razing, pre optics, by enemies then it's too late, we've lost already. "

I don't think enemy galleys can reach us, even with open borders. Wouldn't that require them to move through an ocean square? We can move through the ocean square, because it is in our borders, but I don't think any other civ can.
 
capital hybrid with 4 cottages (1 farm is needed to bring water to green). with 2 dye and 2 diamonds in bfc, we still have 8 strong money tiles for capital and therefore a strong bureau-capital that can pay a big rex overseas without slowing research down too much and still giving us flexibility on the slider (slider too close to 0% is bad in my opinion, cause it may come the time when we need to collect some money for upgrading and/or raise the spy slider...)

I'm still not sold on this cottage thing. No financial, and we are SUPPOSED to be getting REP. Looks bad for cotts. We don't even have a floodplains, and not much tiles for cotts anyhow. Looks even worse to me for any cotts.

I agree to use Bureacracy, because we can get that many more hammers in our production capital, which I value more than gold/commerce anyway.
 
I don't think enemy galleys can reach us, even with open borders.

Yes, this seems to be one of those non-sense issues with the rule-set. Anyhow, what is a big "-" for us, is that it's most probable that everyone else also has this DOOR-STEP protection to their capital. In that case, we really can't rape a neighbour with our triremes like we had planned.

I also had been hoping we could land a few spears next to the Amazon's capital and raze it after their defending imps got slaughtered :p Guess that battle-plan goes out the window now...
 
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