NEW Handicap's

See, that is where I would rather iMaxNumCities played a larger role, instead of the adding up for limiting cities based on extra have it naturally capped by city maintenance. In Nightmare that is happening but in the regular it is not. Sure, higher base City Maintenances make it better but far, far from good.

You speak of "Without Despotism capped at 12 cities" and already there, even at Deity, the last 4 cities have not increased the costs nationwide, only added on the maintenance cost for the new cities, and after that "easily double" (remember my test showing just that, btw?), whereby each city again only adds total maintenance of it's own maintenance.

If that number is around 15 and you get an income of 10 from each of those cities then the cost in is only 2 for each city placed, and as soon as you have built a few (5) +1 buildings that city now suddenly reaches equilibrium. More and it goes +, way too fast in my opinion. and that is for EVERY city after the 8th city in Deity. On Noble it is after the 5th city.
And cities do easily come with +10-20 right when placing them with all the Housings and other autobuild buildings.

It is still a problem in normal games as I see it. Just your comment there of "doubling" shows me how true that problem is. Nightmare at least has that covered but maybe a bit too much if part of the AI's reluctance to spread early comes from the increased City Maintenances. Reducing it to 75% of current should help the AI there a bit too.

I find the AI slightly better at expanding too when I drop the iCommerce increased City Maintenance costs (not on crime buildings though) by 1/3 on all buildings. Not only at expanding but they have very decent sized armies too then.

Cheers

I 100% support that! Expansion should definetly be limited by maintenance costs. I basically could repeat everything BG just said, but let's limit this to: "I think his arguments are totally valid!"

Faustmouse said:

I 100% support that! Expansion should definetly be limited by maintenance costs. I basically could repeat everything BG just said, but let's limit this to: "I think his arguments are totally valid!"

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Couldn't have said it any better!!!!

I agree too but with this difference, only for the Nightmare Mod Option, and Not for the base Mod.

Making the Nightmare Option as difficult as you want I have Absolutely No Problem. But the Real Problem was it was adopted into the Main Mod. And that is were i total and wholeheartedly have to disagree. It does not belong there imho.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

I agree too but with this difference, only for the Nightmare Mod Option, and Not for the base Mod.

Making the Nightmare Option as difficult as you want I have Absolutely No Problem. But the Real Problem was it was adopted into the Main Mod. And that is were i total and wholeheartedly have to disagree. It does not belong there imho.

JosEPh

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Who put this into the main? I don't remember that?? Better not have?? maybe parts?? ??

They are making a NEW Alien movie about Ripley again, different director though . .

strategyonly said:

Who put this into the main? I don't remember that?? Better not have?? maybe parts?? ??

They are making a NEW Alien movie about Ripley again, different director though . .

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You put them in. Just the changes to the one file iirc.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

You put them in. Just the changes to the one file iirc.

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Like DH said, You did.

JosEPh

Dancing Hoskuld said:

You put them in. Just the changes to the one file iirc.

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If I did I don't remember, if so, and it does NOT belong in the main, pls remove, thx, DH

That's why I asked you when you were IN-Charge to make all the corrections you wanted that are wrong, remember

As far as I know the only real change left now in the main is the base maintenance. The rest was reversed by Alberts2.
Some of that reversion also played a role in removing changes meant for the Nightmare but that is secondary.

I still think the increase in baseline and iMaxNumCities should be for both the main and Nightmare, but maybe higher in Nightmare.

I also think the high (and oft-times weird) costs for a lot of buildings should be reduced. Not removed, but reduced, as that is not needed as much when the baseline for City Maintenance is higher (as that gives the extra cost most of those buildings costs were supposed to add).
Again, in the main, not just Nightmare.

Cheers

I suppose that alberts2 opinion should be asked too. As his input would be extremely valuable at this time.

JosEPh

BlueGenie said:

I also think the high (and oft-times weird) costs for a lot of buildings should be reduced. Not removed, but reduced, as that is not needed as much when the baseline for City Maintenance is higher (as that gives the extra cost most of those buildings costs were supposed to add).

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This is the bit I don't understand. We went through and changed most building costs to match their place in the tech tree. As far as I can see the only variation from that is those buildings we missed which cost far to little. These buildings are mostly the religion wonder buildings.

The reason to add to the building costs in the first place, fixing it according to a certain format, was what?
From what I understood it was to increase overall costs, due to some talks about how in some scenarios became too abundant.
So the cost were set according to a higher format than what was before, and some, no, a lot, of buildings that did not have these costs before now got some costs.

A lot of them I agree with, like the Science buildings, not for reasons of increasing overall costs but to balance v better.

But the many buildings that were placed in the same category without giving what they cost were mainly set to cost to balance the high income from all the + buildings.
Those do not have to have such a high cost any more when the reason there was an abundance of in some games is removed by increasing the City Maintenance baselines.

So it is not to remove the variation, the cost axis going up like that, but to lessen it a bit to remove the compensation for low City Maintenance.
Even the buildings can have it reduced the same way as the cost for having 13+ cities is now IN the City Maintenances and as a lot of them require a 13+ city the city itself is already paying in part for the ability to have those buildings.

Cheers

Ah ha, you mean per turn cost! I was talking about build cost. That is why I was confused.

edit initial per turn costs were a knee jerk reaction to excess reported by some.

JosEPh_II said:

I agree too but with this difference, only for the Nightmare Mod Option, and Not for the base Mod.

Making the Nightmare Option as difficult as you want I have Absolutely No Problem. But the Real Problem was it was adopted into the Main Mod. And that is were i total and wholeheartedly have to disagree. It does not belong there imho.

JosEPh

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I disagree here Joseph. The point is NOT to make the Nightmare mode more difficult, but more to change the money sink from building maintenance to city maintenance. This might limit city placement, but will allow greater variance of buildings you can build.

Faustmouse said:

I disagree here Joseph. The point is NOT to make the Nightmare mode more difficult, but more to change the money sink from building maintenance to city maintenance. This might limit city placement, but will allow greater variance of buildings you can build.

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I'm not sure you followed what i said. Cause we're talking about different things or I'm totally confused.

My point was that you can do what you all want with Nightmare. That part I could care less what you end up doing.

What I do care about was taking things from Nightmare and making those changes go back into the Main mod. The original changes For NM were not supposed to go in the Main mod but did get put there any way. Which caused a ton of problems that alberts2 started addressing but gave up on finishing.

So I don't get what you're disagreeing with me about.

JosEPh

The thing we seem to disagree is that you think higher city maintenance (and reduced building maintenance) only belongs to Nightmare, while I think the main game would benefit from them as well.
I still think the ultimative limitation in civ should come from city costs, because "pumping out as much cities as possible" is not an interesting strategy for a game. I want small civs being competetive as well.
But I think we had this this discussion quite a few times...

OK I want to get the changes alberts2 made, in the "Nightmare" mod but i cant remember what i changed to get them there, BUT i want to keep the 2 levels UP per handicap, that is a necessity. Any help would be appreciated, thx . . . SO

EDIT: I want the changes in BEFORE v36, so pls help, thx.

I "Think" i have it but could someone check to make sure , thx . . . SO

Its ONLY 1 file . .

@SO,
I think you made a mistake or 2 on your last 2 levels for Crime Property. You have Immortal at 5/5 (1) and Deity at 5.

Previous you had a pattern of Settler 2, Chieftain 5/2 (2.5), Warlord 3, Noble 7/2 (3.5), Prince 4, Monarch 9/2 (4.5), and then Emperor at 5.

If I follow your logic then Immortal should be 11/2 (5.5) and then Deity 6.

By the way these levels are not 2 steps above the regular, unless you took each step to represent .5 Crime per pop.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

@SO,
I think you made a mistake or 2 on your last 2 levels for Crime Property. You have Immortal at 5/5 (1) and Deity at 5.

Previous you had a pattern of Settler 2, Chieftain 5/2 (2.5), Warlord 3, Noble 7/2 (3.5), Prince 4, Monarch 9/2 (4.5), and then Emperor at 5.

If I follow your logic then Immortal should be 11/2 (5.5) and then Deity 6.

By the way these levels are not 2 steps above the regular, unless you took each step to represent .5 Crime per pop.

JosEPh

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Go ahead and change it Joe, its ok with me . .