C2C - Wonder Civs

Hydromancerx said:

So as a playable unit it would be fine? I will leave the cost up to you then.

I have no problem with a Barbarian version and a Wonder Civ version.

Click to expand...

OK, if your going to make the Neanderthal cost -1, then what good are the Embassy and Caves, do for the regular game? Or should we have a -1 cost PLUS a regular cost one?

New Discovered techs attached.


EDIT: OK try these.

strategyonly said:

OK, if your going to make the Neanderthal cost -1, then what good are the Embassy and Caves, do for the regular game? Or should we have a -1 cost PLUS a regular cost one?

New Discovered techs attached.

Click to expand...

No no. You will have 2 units a "barbarian" and a "playable". The barbarian Neanderthal will cost nothing and not require all the Embassy stuff. The playable on the other hand will have the same stats as the barbarian unit but would actually cost something. So like ...


Neanderthal Warrior [Unit]
Cost: 20
Image: Pic1 Pic2
Unit Type: Melee
Req Building: Neanderthal Embassy
Req Tech: Tool Making
Strength: 3
Speed; 1

Special Abilities

• Same as Barbarian Neanderthal

-----

In addition I think the "Clubman" unit should be moved to "Tool Making" tech. And the "Slinger" unit should also require "Tool Making" as well as "Weaving". Since both of those are "tools". The rock thrower on the other hand is just throwing a rock and not crafting it so it can stay as a pre-Tool unit. Same goes for the Wanderer especially if that is a non-combat unit.

Hydromancerx said:

In addition I think the "Clubman" unit should be moved to "Tool Making" tech. And the "Slinger" unit should also require "Tool Making" as well as "Weaving". Since both of those are "tools". The rock thrower on the other hand is just throwing a rock and not crafting it so it can stay as a pre-Tool unit. Same goes for the Wanderer especially if that is a non-combat unit.

Click to expand...

I would think that a club is just a bit of wood of the right size not a crafted tool so the clubman should not move.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I would think that a club is just a bit of wood of the right size not a crafted tool so the clubman should not move.

Click to expand...

Hmm, good point. But the Slinger should. It will at least give the Rock Thrower longer usage since it goes obsolete so fast.

strategyonly said:

New Discovered techs attached.

Click to expand...

I did not see them in there. Please re-upload.

@strategyonly

Here is an update. Please make the "Neanderthal Warrior" require the "Neanderthal Embassy" which is included in this update.

Hydromancerx said:

@Praetyre

Thanks for the feedback. Let me try to explain it some more.

1. All units and buildings linked to an embassy wonder would also have its own tech and sometimes resource requirements. For instance if we had a special horse unit then it would need both the appropriate tech and horse resource (in addition to the embassy building) in order to build the unit.

2. I do not want to link it to writing because I want to have say a "Neanderthal Embassy" for the prehistoric era. I am not sure if it should still be called an "Embassy" but it would work where you unlocked a Neanderthal unit and some sort of special building.

3. As for existing playable civs I am thinking we should put in the starting techs based on their location. For instance all Asian civs get access to Asian civilization embassies (with the appropriate secondary techs) until say colonialism where any civ can gain access to any civilization's embassy wonders.

Thus the following civs would start out with access to the following regional tech.

Note that these are just what region the playable civs get to start. Each region will have many more embassies. Thus even though no one starts in Australia and Oceania they can later get access to that region during the colonial period of the game. Which tech unlocks that I will have to see or even make a new tech just for that.

Click to expand...

OK, just found out this looks and sounds great in THEORY, but it does NOT work, it automatically starts you off in the Renaissance era, and the first turn just sits there waiting, nothing else happens.

I wonder if i changed then to a -1 cost. (Nope that didnt work either).

OK let me do what DH did with the SA and have a double post of each one one with a cost and one without

EDIT: Here is what i did:

Changed the Tech name to included (P) at the end of each discovered tech, changed the starting era to Prehistoric, -1 cost, and <iGridX>-1</iGridX> + <iGridY>-1</iGridY>.

At least now it goes to the next turn, no problem, BUT what are these tech's good for anyways, i see no benefit from them, ATM, but if your planning to add stuff, please let me know, cause i need to test this portion out then, thx.

It is 4am here and I can't sleep because this is a bad idea. I did not want to say anything until I had figured out if it was salvageable. First I will outline why I think it is a bad idea then I will try and suggest how the basic idea behind it may be save.

Problem: This idea is artificial, contrary to the ideas behind Civ and not fun.

1. I usually play on random maps so there is no Europe or Africa, so the idea of discovering them is artificial and a nonsense. It may make sense on an Earth based map but even then I discover a region by sending a scout there not by studying a tech.

2. Not fun. It is on par with only allowing nations that founded a religion in our history being the ones to found the religion in game. So only India can found Hindi and Buddhism and Israel is the only nation that can found Judaism and Christianity. It takes a huge element of fun out.

3. What about the ethnic grouping your nation is part of. Do you still need Navigation to discover it?

Is it salvageable? Probably not as it stands. It just makes no sense on a random map where you don't force culturally liked starts. Even then the tech idea seems just wrong.

How about a "proto-embassy" building that you get when you first make contact, via exploration or diplomacy, with any in that cultural grouping. The building does nothing but is the requirement for the "embassy" building.


OK, that is my two cents worth, now I can go back to bed and get some sleep. Hope it makes sense and is not offensive.

@Dancing Hoskuld

I also play on random maps (mostly PW2). It was jut ment to let similar cultural groups get first dibs on Wonder Civs that were culturally related to them.

If you think we should not use the "Discovered" techs then we can take those out and just have any civ have access to any Wonder Civ they have the right techs and resources to get.

I just thought the "Discovery" techs would add some flavor and balance so not all the Wonder Civs were snatched up so fast by leading Civ who could build them the fastest.

In short if you think they are so "un-fun" and "artificial" then I guess we can take out the "Discovery" techs.

Hydromancerx said:

@Dancing Hoskuld

I also play on random maps (mostly PW2). It was jut ment to let similar cultural groups get first dibs on Wonder Civs that were culturally related to them.

If you think we should not use the "Discovered" techs then we can take those out and just have any civ have access to any Wonder Civ they have the right techs and resources to get.

I just thought the "Discovery" techs would add some flavor and balance so not all the Wonder Civs were snatched up so fast by leading Civ who could build them the fastest.

In short if you think they are so "un-fun" and "artificial" then I guess we can take out the "Discovery" techs.

Click to expand...

No offense to anyone, but wasn't the First Sid Meier's Civilization 4 made especially for Earth type maps? And really thats all that came with it in the PrivateMaps area?, besides the .py mapscripts of course? I really have no idea, its been so darn long.

Are you sure you cant find anyone do something in dll/python to use this only for Earth type maps? No biggy to me, less techs is all. If its nonsense then it should be scraped.

Also HX: How close does the Stone requirement have to be to get the Neanderthal Embassy?

strategyonly said:

Also HX: How close does the Stone requirement have to be to get the Neanderthal Embassy?

Click to expand...

That I have not quite figured out. Since it uses the city vicinity code is the same for all city vicinity buildings. For instance in a past game I had a deer resource half way between 2 cities and both seemed to benefit from it being in the city vicinity. Thus its not based on if a particular city is working that tile. My best guess is a 3 tile radius. Can Someone please try to confirm this.

EDIT: Here is an update without the Embassy using the "Discovered" tech.

strategyonly said:

No offense to anyone, but wasn't the First Sid Meier's Civilization 4 made especially for Earth type maps? And really thats all that came with it in the PrivateMaps area?, besides the .py mapscripts of course? I really have no idea, its been so darn long.

Click to expand...

The only time I have ever played Civ IV on Earth maps was when playing "Rhyse and Fall". You know too much if it isn't random.

strategyonly said:

Are you sure you cant find anyone do something in dll/python to use this only for Earth type maps? No biggy to me, less techs is all.

Click to expand...

Yes you can but not the way you are going about it now. First you would need to build it all in a separate module, then you would need to set up options in BUG or Custom Game and make all the bits dependent on them. Otherwise everyone will get them. You could do it the other way around option first then XML but keeping it separate is a good idea anyway.

Hydromancerx said:

@Dancing Hoskuld

I also play on random maps (mostly PW2). It was jut ment to let similar cultural groups get first dibs on Wonder Civs that were culturally related to them.

Click to expand...

But how does that work with this implementation? Who ever is first gets the techs. So if I am playing a European nation, I can only discover Europe when I get the tech anyway and anyone else may get the tech first. I can also "discover" the New World without bothering to sail to it!

Hydromancerx said:

If you think we should not use the "Discovered" techs then we can take those out and just have any civ have access to any Wonder Civ they have the right techs and resources to get.

I just thought the "Discovery" techs would add some flavor and balance so not all the Wonder Civs were snatched up so fast by leading Civ who could build them the fastest.

In short if you think they are so "un-fun" and "artificial" then I guess we can take out the "Discovery" techs.

Click to expand...

The idea has merit. It just does not make sense as a tech.

I still think my free building could be made to work. At start of game you get a free building, in all your cities if necessary, which says you have discovered your Region. When you meet any civ you get the free building of that grouping. No duplicates naturally. Then when you have the correct other techs and resources you have the chance to build the Wonder Civ. This way it fits with both earth and non-Earth maps but still restricts who has a chance of building them.

But how does that work with this implementation? Who ever is first gets the techs. So if I am playing a European nation, I can only discover Europe when I get the tech anyway and anyone else may get the tech first. I can also "discover" the New World without bothering to sail to it!

Click to expand...

It was suppose to work where say you play as the Aztecs and you get as a starting tech of "Discovered Americas". And in return you get access to say the "Olmec Embassy", "Zapotec Embassy", "Tupi Embassy", "Navajo Embassy", "Apache Embassy" and so on for civilizations from the Americas.

Meanwhile another player plays as the Spanish and gets "Discovered Europe" as their starting tech. They would get access to "Polish Embassy", "Scottish Embassy", etc with European based Civs but only get access to the ones mentioned above after getting "Navigation" tech and then researching "Discovered Americas" tech.

This in turn gives the Aztecs early access to civilizations that are culturally more similar than say the European Civ Embassies.

Hydromancerx said:

It was suppose to work where say you play as the Aztecs and you get as a starting tech of "Discovered Americas". And in return you get access to say the "Olmec Embassy", "Zapotec Embassy", "Tupi Embassy", "Navajo Embassy", "Apache Embassy" and so on for civilizations from the Americas.

Meanwhile another player plays as the Spanish and gets "Discovered Europe" as their starting tech. They would get access to "Polish Embassy", "Scottish Embassy", etc with European based Civs but only get access to the ones mentioned above after getting "Navigation" tech and then researching "Discovered Americas" tech.

This in turn gives the Aztecs early access to civilizations that are culturally more similar than say the European Civ Embassies.

Click to expand...

So replace "Discovered America" the tech and replace it with "Discovered America" the building. Make a bit of Python ... checking python exposed events..... based onFirstContact to find who you have met and if necessary give another "Discover XXX" building. It rewards exploration not science budget.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

So replace "Discovered America" the tech and replace it with "Discovered America" the building. Make a bit of Python ... checking python exposed events..... based onFirstContact to find who you have met and if necessary give another "Discover XXX" building. It rewards exploration not science budget.

Click to expand...

Now to tell you the truth sounds like a really good concept, umm i really like the thinking you guys are coming up with, dang, just great stuff

Dancing Hoskuld said:

So replace "Discovered America" the tech and replace it with "Discovered America" the building. Make a bit of Python ... checking python exposed events..... based onFirstContact to find who you have met and if necessary give another "Discover XXX" building. It rewards exploration not science budget.

Click to expand...

One problem. What about Oceania? There are no core civs that come from Oceania. Also what happens if in some fluke you get only European civs? Will all other wonder civs be unavailable in that game?

In addition I have no idea how to mod python files.

This will make the Zoroaster religion wonder Ishtar Gate even more useful, since it gives you contact with all other current civs.

Hydromancerx said:

One problem. What about Oceania? There are no core civs that come from Oceania. Also what happens if in some fluke you get only European civs? Will all other wonder civs be unavailable in that game?

In addition I have no idea how to mod python files.

Click to expand...

Even better, you no longer know what embassies/wonder civs you may be able to build. I like.

We could program it into the Caveman2Cosmos python file. It does not look to difficult. Famous last words in any computer programming project.

I have been looking at the StartingPoint mod because it stores its (meta)data in XML files. If I can get that working here I would be able to move much of the metadata out of my mods so that anyone could make XML changes.

Note: The StartingPoint mod looks interesting but will not "work" for random maps. Where work means that it can replace the CulturallyLinkedStart mod.

Hydromancerx said:

Looks like we will have to take this at a civ by civ basis. The first civ I want to do is the "Neanderthals". They are not really a civ but another species. But for this game we can count them as a civ. Here is my idea ...

Neanderthal Embassy [Wonder]
Cost: 50
Req Resource in Vicinity: Stone
Req Tech: Cave Dwelling AND (Discovered Europe OR Discovered Middle East)
Obsolete Tech: Sedentary Lifestyle
Gold: +1
Science: +1
Culture: +1
Espionage:+1

Special Abilities

• Enables "Neanderthal" Unit
• Enables "Neanderthal Caves" Building

So what do you think? A good prehistoric wonder civ?

Click to expand...

So only ONE civ can build the Embassy?

Yup. Basically each wonder is adding a new unique building and unit to you civ. However you can still loose the city its built in to another civ and they will get the benefits of that wonder.

Hydromancerx said:

Yup. Basically each wonder is adding a new unique building and unit to you civ. However you can still loose the city its built in to another civ and they will get the benefits of that wonder.

Click to expand...

So what your basically saying is that you MUST be one lucky son of a gun to get the resources that you need to get to those buildings (before anyone else) to build them.