Subdued Animals in C2C discussions
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Thanks. I do have wingrep, it just refuses to work cosnistantly for me.
Well, they were, but the MORMON ones had the same names, so when I fixed the MORMON ones by changing the names the ANDEAN ones weren't there.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
StrategyOnly, where do those errors show up? I think I have fixed all now but how do I test?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
They are under the Logs folder in the Audio file.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
The Lion and Cheetah show STR 1 in CIV4UnitInfos.XML. Lion Pack is 2.
Spoiler :
Trying to balance out their combat and movement compared to each other. The suggestion you made above should work great (bonus on grass/plains and penalty in forest/jungle for those fast runner types)
Here are some suggestions:
Boar STR 1 MOV 2 (at str 2)
Bear STR 3 MOV 2 (at mov 1)
- Bears are at least as fast as Boars, but maybe mov penalty in Forest
Cave Bear STR 4 MOV 2 (at str 3 mov 1)
- Non-arctic version of Polar Bear, mov penalty in forest
Polar Bear STR 4 MOV 2 (at mov 1)
- Bonus on arctic, mov penalty in forest
Elephant STR 5 MOV 2 (at str 3 mov 1)
- Bonus to mov on plains, grass, savanna, mov penalty in forest, jungle
Mammoth STR 5 MOV 2 (at mov 1)
- Similar to above, but with bonus on arctic
Wolf STR 1 MOV 2 (no change, just using for reference)
Deer STR 1 MOV 2 (at str 3)
- Herbivore, equal to Wolf str
Lion STR 2 MOV 2 (at str 1 mov 1)
Lion Pack STR 3 MOV 2 (at str 2 mov 1)
Cave Lion STR 3 MOV 2 (at mov 1)
Gorilla STR 2 MOV 1 (at mov 2)
Orangutan STR 1 MOV 1 (at str 2)
Cow STR 2 MOV 1 (at mov 2)
- Using bull as reference for str
Cheetah STR 1 MOV 3 (at str 1 mov 2)
- Bonus to speed on plains/grass
Jaguar STR 1 MOV 2 (at str 4)
- Not quite as strong as a Lion. Maybe Jungle bonus?
Panther STR 1 MOV 2 (at str 2)
- Panther and Jaguar same cat.
Donkey STR 1 MOV 3 (at str 2 mov 2)
- I think this includes Zebra, so terrain bonus can apply
Horse STR 1 MOV 3 (at str 3)
Hyena STR 3 MOV 2 (at str 2)
- I've seen enough animal programs to know how effective/powerful a Hyena pack
can be. Even chasing off lion packs from a kill.
Giraffe STR 1 MOV 2 (at str 2 now)
Rhino STR 3 MOV 1 (no change except bonus on plains & grassland?)
@Dancing Hoskuld Let me know which changes (if any) make sense to you and I can make the changes if you like.
Strongly agree with most of these adjustments and I just never did get around to making many of the same suggestions... but let me present the following according to what I think I'm hearing in the last few suggestions and according to some of my own thoughts I've had on the matter for quite some time now:
(all animals should be given a native terrain movement bonus (1/2 the movement cost for that terrain) and a +25% str for native terrain defense and attack) In addition, I feel they should be considered either Carnivore (and thus given +20% on attack) or Herbivore (and thus given +25% Defensive Withdrawal).
Boar STR 2 MOV 2 (native: jungle)
Bear STR 3 MOV 1 (native: forest)
Cave Bear STR 4 MOV 1 (native: hills)
Polar Bear STR 4 MOV 1 (native: Tundra and Ice etc...)
Elephant STR 5 MOV 1 (native: Plains and Savannah)
Mammoth STR 6 MOV 1 (native: Tundra and Ice etc...)
Wolf STR 2 MOV 2 (native: Forest)
-These units should be given some surround and destroy modifying promotions as discussed in the promo thread.
Deer STR 1 MOV 2 (native: Forest)
Lion STR 3 MOV 2 (native: Desert/Plains)
Lion Pack STR 4 MOV 2 (native: Desert/Plains)
Cave Lion STR 5 MOV 1 (Native: Hills)
Gorilla STR 4 MOV 1 (Native: Jungle)
Orangutan STR 1 MOV 1 (Native: Jungle)
Cow STR 2 MOV 1 (Native: Grasslands)
Cheetah STR 1 MOV 3 (Native: Plains and Savannah)
- Bonus to speed on plains/grass
Jaguar STR 3 MOV 2 (Native: Jungle)
Panther STR 2 MOV 2 (Native: Jungle)
- Invisible to most units (stealthier cat but less likely to attack)
Donkey STR 1 MOV 2 (Native: Desert)
Zebra Str 2, MOV 3 (Native: Savannah and Plains)
Horse STR 2 MOV 3 (Native: Grassland and Plains)
Hyena STR 2 MOV 2 (Native: Savannah)
- yes they can be strong but then again a 2 CAN beat a 3 and perhaps its the fact that they would attack after the lion has weakened itself combined with some surround and destroy tactics?
Giraffe STR 2 MOV 2 (Native: Savannah)
Rhino STR 4 MOV 1 (Native: Savannah and Plains)
But hey... just my 2 cents.
I think one of the best ways to really give animals more of an intricate feel to them is to not only balance strengths to this thinking but to also establish free promos to specialize their roles in nature. And if we had a building for training/breeding each one available at some point, they could make for a very interesting early military interplay.
BTW: Thank you so much for the various rider units... they are soooooo cool! (imho anyhow) Might want to do some more work on various upgrade paths for them though. Where we are feels a bit rough and underdeveloped at the moment but its definately getting there.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I like these better. The changes would also need to be made to the subdued animals or it will look strange.
The idea of an animal having a specific promotion so it can get the bonuses suggested is the way to go. Should the subdued animal also have that promo?
the various rider units were plugged in without much thought. I just wanted some alternate timeline stuff happening.
The idea of an animal having a specific promotion so it can get the bonuses suggested is the way to go. Should the subdued animal also have that promo?
the various rider units were plugged in without much thought. I just wanted some alternate timeline stuff happening.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Definately... but subdued animals can't currently attack and that makes sense. In a sense they are simply captured animals with a handler, certainly not serving the master faithfully yet. Now, taken back to the city and converted to a 'training' building should allow us to build animal units of the same type with the same abilities as the wild ones but are now domesticated instead, giving our early armies some real flavor! (and removing some of the super advantage some of the anti-animal units get because they aren't 'wild' anymore, and making units like bone spearmen actually having a necessary function.)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I would change the following in red.
That's why I had you give the Zebra and Giraffe mounts Savanna bonuses. I also made sure the Mammoth mounts had bonuses for cold terrain and the Camel mounts had bonuses for arid terrain. And of course the Pack Mule and Pack Llama have the ability to travel over peaks.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Dancing Hoskuld
Here is another new unit, a vulture. I think it should be able to make "Myth of the Scavenger" as well as "Carnival - Bird Cage".
I also think the Cassowary should be slightly bigger. Right now you have it at scale 25.0, maybe bump it up to scale 30.0.
Here is another new unit, a vulture. I think it should be able to make "Myth of the Scavenger" as well as "Carnival - Bird Cage".
I also think the Cassowary should be slightly bigger. Right now you have it at scale 25.0, maybe bump it up to scale 30.0.
Sleeeper
Warlord
For some reason subdued animals cannot attack anymore, maybe because of they are changed to enginner-like behavior?
No, that's because they were changed to defend-only a while ago.
EldrinFal
King
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I hadn't made any changes because I was waiting for your approval Dancing Hoskuld. Did you want to pull the trigger on the above suggestions of TB, Hydro, and myself?
Also, it wasn't listed but the eagle needs to be modified. I think it's STR 5 MOV 3 iirc and it's been the terror of my game recently wiping out any subdued animals that are on their way back to my territory. hah One even took out a Bear Rider of mine.
How about STR 2 MOV 3?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I agree, dont know what str though, but 5 is way to much that early for a "bird" unit? Plus in the games i have been getting lately, there are MORE Hawks now than any other animals/Neanderthal units available.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I disagree... str 1. Yes they are strong enough to do damage but that's saying a lot for a bird in the first place. I wouldn't make an eagle stronger than a deer or an orangutang or a cheetah, and these are str 1 creatures. Now if we need to increase ALL by 1 so as to make room for such lowly creatures as beavers and such (though they too could just be str 1 and I think it may still fit) then we should yes, increase all by +1. But I think this might make the animal world a little TOO dangerous out the gate. (then again would give more cause for rangers and full fledged hunter units if the topend animals were a bit stronger...)
EldrinFal
King
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DH has said that he thinks animals should be more dangerous compared to early human units, which is why I assumed he made the eagle that strong (or he just used a template from another animal and didn't change the stats
)But yes, I suggested it earlier in this thread that if he thought the animals were too weak, we could bump them all +1 STR across the board so they are stronger but also balanced to one another.
A ranger with base +325% against animals is OP IMHO unless we start to see animals breaching the 10 STR level, which I can't imagine we will unless some Alternate Timeline dinos are introduced.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
All animals and buildings in zExperimental folder are just that. I have not had chance to balance them. I still can't get past turn 2 in a game, 
In the above there is one problem of description Native can not mean the <NativeTerain> tag in the unit infos. If that tag is used it means the unit will use the BtS spawn system will be used.
Therefore I assume that "native" = bonus to attack/defend. Or are you meaning something else?
If we are going to do a bit of Earth timeline extinctions then Dire wolf and cave lion should be more common in the early times like Mammoth and Sabretooth. Since cave Bear also represents Grizzlies it can remain constant throughout.
I was thinking of keeping cave bears in the northern hemisphere and the big birds in the south.
Thanks for the vulture. As for the size of cassowary, I was trying for same size as the hunter.
In the above there is one problem of description Native can not mean the <NativeTerain> tag in the unit infos. If that tag is used it means the unit will use the BtS spawn system will be used.
Therefore I assume that "native" = bonus to attack/defend. Or are you meaning something else?
If we are going to do a bit of Earth timeline extinctions then Dire wolf and cave lion should be more common in the early times like Mammoth and Sabretooth. Since cave Bear also represents Grizzlies it can remain constant throughout.
I was thinking of keeping cave bears in the northern hemisphere and the big birds in the south.
Thanks for the vulture. As for the size of cassowary, I was trying for same size as the hunter.
EldrinFal
King
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All animals and buildings in zExperimental folder are just that. I have not had chance to balance them. I still can't get past turn 2 in a game,
I can take a look, I just didn't want to modify anything without your approval since StrategyOnly got upset last time.
I was assuming "native" meant appropriate Promotions??
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah... that's all I mean. Attack/defend/movement bonuses in natural habitat reflected in a line of simple 'native terrain' promos for animals. And I wasn't very thorough so it was helpful what Hydro added there. Plus... we should bring forward a full list of the animals to go through here for a final audit I think.
If you have that much control on where and when animals show up, I think we should really flesh out the epoch and give our worlds a global feel. Penguins in the south, Polar bears in the north, that sort of thing would be truly awesome.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I can take a look, I just didn't want to modify anything without your approval since StrategyOnly got upset last time.
Quite rightly too, if I had been depressed I would have seen it as a personal attack and "taken my ball and gone home". especially as you did not have a suggestion for substitute to fill the later hunter.
Attack and Defense bonuses can be done in the unit infos but I a not sure about speed which is why I suggested the promotion.
If you can do the ones in the core unit infos file I will do the subdued ones and the ones in alt timeline and zExperimental. that way we wont be trying to change the same files at the same time.
@StrategyOnly/Koshling, Does this count as bug fixes for the SVN freeze or should we be waiting until the next release?
I will put a list of all the animals in the opening post.
EldrinFal
King
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Some of that is already implemented that you specifically mentioned. But yeah, AIAndy and Koshling implemented a lot of new ways to control spawns.
