Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
So basically you are saying it should behave like it was designed to behave but some more of the parameters should be moved to XML. Is that right?
On Tech Diffusion and the Steamroll effect
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Not entirely... its a bit simpler now than what Koshling suggested and I think with Koshling's proposed adjustments to the formula, it'd be a very improved game option (perhaps even to the point we can remove it AS an option at all.)
Yes, I think so, though possibly with a few more influencing factors/degrees of influence than currently (without doing a detailed analysis of exactly what it currently does though I couldn't say exactly which aspects it already [at least intends] to do. **If** (and there may have been more heat than light on this point in the discussion so far - I am unsure) it actually gives you a discount for a tech just because someone else has it EVEN IF YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THEM, then I would plan to remove that, or (more probably) make it a sub-option.
Have you considered having the (relative) size of the civilisations which know the technology in question have an effect on the decrease in cost, rather than the number of civs? After all, it shouldn't make a significant difference whether the continent has political boundaries of different countries or is all one superstate, if all of said continent knows a tech you don't, surely?
That would also go some way towards giving countries more benefit if one player (or AI) is a long way ahead, as they're likely to have a greater proportion of the population (due to larger cities and a bigger empire).
The one thing that does need to be considered is that the 'optimal civilisation', ie the position for a civ which will allow best chance of victory (and indeed survival), may be shifted away from simply 'get the most of everything you can' (eg a relatively small and well developed civ may have a better chance than a large, sprawling empire). In response to JosEPh's probable response, it would still (if balanced well) allow for setting choices in which such empires are optimal (and of course games could easily develop into having massive empires through a form of arms race for territory), but in the default game this would encourage players to think a little more carefully before building a lot of cities/population.
This, in my opinion, is quite realistic and will allow the possibility of many smaller civs existing like in Europe without being too much worse off than any continent-spanning empires, in the long term. In the short term, of course, the superpower is much greater, but this would mean that areas like this could develop and not be left miles behind the superpower in the tech race (as if the superpower had half the world population and it researched the tech then the smaller civs would get the cost halved, and as more of them got it the cost would drop to almost nothing).
That seems to be what both Firaxis have been aiming to achieve (with city maintenance in cIV, happiness in ciV, corruption in civ 3, and possibly things in earlier civ games which I haven't played), and what C2C aims to achieve (what with revolutions, etc), so I encourage that. I just felt I should point out what effect I think this would have, so it isn't changed only to find an unexpected effect.
That would also go some way towards giving countries more benefit if one player (or AI) is a long way ahead, as they're likely to have a greater proportion of the population (due to larger cities and a bigger empire).
The one thing that does need to be considered is that the 'optimal civilisation', ie the position for a civ which will allow best chance of victory (and indeed survival), may be shifted away from simply 'get the most of everything you can' (eg a relatively small and well developed civ may have a better chance than a large, sprawling empire). In response to JosEPh's probable response, it would still (if balanced well) allow for setting choices in which such empires are optimal (and of course games could easily develop into having massive empires through a form of arms race for territory), but in the default game this would encourage players to think a little more carefully before building a lot of cities/population.
This, in my opinion, is quite realistic and will allow the possibility of many smaller civs existing like in Europe without being too much worse off than any continent-spanning empires, in the long term. In the short term, of course, the superpower is much greater, but this would mean that areas like this could develop and not be left miles behind the superpower in the tech race (as if the superpower had half the world population and it researched the tech then the smaller civs would get the cost halved, and as more of them got it the cost would drop to almost nothing).
That seems to be what both Firaxis have been aiming to achieve (with city maintenance in cIV, happiness in ciV, corruption in civ 3, and possibly things in earlier civ games which I haven't played), and what C2C aims to achieve (what with revolutions, etc), so I encourage that. I just felt I should point out what effect I think this would have, so it isn't changed only to find an unexpected effect.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Wow! my name gets brought up even when I'm not a part of the conversation.
I must have one heckuva reputation. Hope it's not All bad.
Oh and Welcome lurking one!
JosEPh
Nope, not at all! You just often seem to say about how your playstyle involves having massive empires fighting each other, and often seem to make quite...voluble responses to things which tend to prevent this. I had a (correct, obviously) suspicion that you were reading the thread, too...
And thanks for the welcomes! I'll try not to lurk so much from now on...
And thanks for the welcomes! I'll try not to lurk so much from now on...
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I try to read them all.
As for Tech Diffusion, I used to play with it on all the time. But as the AI was improving under Koshling's care I've turned it off.
I normally play on Noble to be on a level field with the AI to see how they perform. I never get to finish a game any more as the changes have been rapid fire and by the time I get to Medieval another Major change has come into play. So I start a new game to see what's happening with the AI.
Currently I'm finding the AI isn't too good with Start as Minors Option. But that is another topic.
JosEPh
As for Tech Diffusion, I used to play with it on all the time. But as the AI was improving under Koshling's care I've turned it off.
I normally play on Noble to be on a level field with the AI to see how they perform. I never get to finish a game any more as the changes have been rapid fire and by the time I get to Medieval another Major change has come into play. So I start a new game to see what's happening with the AI.
Currently I'm finding the AI isn't too good with Start as Minors Option. But that is another topic.
JosEPh
V25 had good tech diffusion. The ai wasnt lagging behind. Right now I have an ai tech leader. And the rest of the folk ages behind it in research. Im 2-3 techs behind ai, but i keep researching important wonder techs so once i get to industrial i will be tech leader.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
I also like the new proposed changes from Koshling.
But I thought you already changes Tech Diffusion in V27, didn't you?
It would also be cool if there where random events that "helps" spread tech diffusion as well. Like the "A german airplane crashed in our borders. What should we do?
1) Let the Germans get unlimited access to their wreck.
2) Whatever this Option was
3) Observe it and try to learn something about why planes can fly"
And as the "gain military-tech-points when killing a unit" TB brought up, I think this a bit too much (even if you make the points-per-unit very low). Maybe make this trigger events by chance.
But I thought you already changes Tech Diffusion in V27, didn't you?
It would also be cool if there where random events that "helps" spread tech diffusion as well. Like the "A german airplane crashed in our borders. What should we do?
1) Let the Germans get unlimited access to their wreck.
2) Whatever this Option was
3) Observe it and try to learn something about why planes can fly"
And as the "gain military-tech-points when killing a unit" TB brought up, I think this a bit too much (even if you make the points-per-unit very low). Maybe make this trigger events by chance.
No, just posted some suggestions, but they didn't get much reaction so it never made it to the top of my list.
Okay... STOP IGNORING ME!!!
Seriously... give me the actual formula and what the propsed changes will do to it.
Though I never actually got to the point in v26 where gunpowder was anywhere near I did in v23... and one of my biggest issues is that sulfer was at a maximum of one source per contient... if I was lucky. I had a disturbing amount of issues with claim 2 contients and randomly the only source of sulfer I had spontaniously went and became a volcano within 5-10 turns of me accessing it. Even with save scumming this would just keep occuring. (v23 complaint)
Either I have the worste luck ever in this game or its issues with the contients maps (like how selecting 'random' number of contients always instantly picks one contient... and on a huge map that means all land with maybe 5 water tiles total. Seriously... these found memories challenge maps for other people are Tuesday to me.
In v26, this random number contients=waterless pangea map issue is still present and my complains on that ignored. Just FYI.
---
And now for me ranting about Gloobleflargs. What is a 'Gloobleflarg'? A Gloobleflarg is any key word or phrase in a discusion, arguement, political campaign, etc... which keeps coming up and is clearingly important to the discusion... yet no one ever bothers to define. It is a term so vague that everyone actually fills in their own definition and runs with it.
In this case, I'm thinking the Gloobleflargs are terms like 'Run away Civ', 'tech diffusion' (which my request for the specifics of is so far only answered with 'good question' type comments) and the like.
---
Seriously, in a game with over 500 techs... people are defining a 'Run Away Civ' as one with '2-3 tech ahead of you'... Run Away Civs are more in the 'an era or two ahead' of the rest of the world. Granted some issues come from the AI Civ B-lining to a tech and ignoring
buildings in much cheaper techs, but some of it is lucky events.
In a game with so very many options, people keep babbling about 'tech diffusion' as a term in a void. This entire thread starts with one modder wanting to change a few things that no one seems to actually know what the specific effects of it would be.
I'm actually convinced half of these 'positive feedback loops' are a direct result of people turning off REV. Seriously... REV causes run away empires to implode and make their own worst enimies. REV has the amusing feature of emboding 'strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'. Splinter Civs having their tech base and all.
---
Also, it sounds like an event suggestion I gave long ago is relavant again. If a Civ gets X number of techs ahead... start having random events kick in as an equalizer. The ahead Civ gets to respond to the results as an event,
-'Traitors' defect and bring a tech with them. That Civ gets a related great person in one of their cities and a shiny new tech the person bought their way into power. Its better to rule in Hell than serve in heaven and all.
-'Benevolent ' people decide the rest of the Civs need 'uplifting' and start donating techs and
and such to lower ranked Civs.
-'Man on a mission' a Scientist great person is spawned into the lesser Civ, as one of the hirer teched Civs random scientists or scholars moves there.
---
In short, there are much better ways to go about this than an ill defined welfare system.
Seriously... give me the actual formula and what the propsed changes will do to it.Though I never actually got to the point in v26 where gunpowder was anywhere near I did in v23... and one of my biggest issues is that sulfer was at a maximum of one source per contient... if I was lucky. I had a disturbing amount of issues with claim 2 contients and randomly the only source of sulfer I had spontaniously went and became a volcano within 5-10 turns of me accessing it. Even with save scumming this would just keep occuring. (v23 complaint)
Either I have the worste luck ever in this game or its issues with the contients maps (like how selecting 'random' number of contients always instantly picks one contient... and on a huge map that means all land with maybe 5 water tiles total. Seriously... these found memories challenge maps for other people are Tuesday to me.
In v26, this random number contients=waterless pangea map issue is still present and my complains on that ignored. Just FYI.
---
And now for me ranting about Gloobleflargs. What is a 'Gloobleflarg'? A Gloobleflarg is any key word or phrase in a discusion, arguement, political campaign, etc... which keeps coming up and is clearingly important to the discusion... yet no one ever bothers to define. It is a term so vague that everyone actually fills in their own definition and runs with it.
In this case, I'm thinking the Gloobleflargs are terms like 'Run away Civ', 'tech diffusion' (which my request for the specifics of is so far only answered with 'good question' type comments) and the like.
---
Seriously, in a game with over 500 techs... people are defining a 'Run Away Civ' as one with '2-3 tech ahead of you'... Run Away Civs are more in the 'an era or two ahead' of the rest of the world. Granted some issues come from the AI Civ B-lining to a tech and ignoring
buildings in much cheaper techs, but some of it is lucky events.In a game with so very many options, people keep babbling about 'tech diffusion' as a term in a void. This entire thread starts with one modder wanting to change a few things that no one seems to actually know what the specific effects of it would be.
I'm actually convinced half of these 'positive feedback loops' are a direct result of people turning off REV. Seriously... REV causes run away empires to implode and make their own worst enimies. REV has the amusing feature of emboding 'strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'. Splinter Civs having their tech base and all.
---
Also, it sounds like an event suggestion I gave long ago is relavant again. If a Civ gets X number of techs ahead... start having random events kick in as an equalizer. The ahead Civ gets to respond to the results as an event,
-'Traitors' defect and bring a tech with them. That Civ gets a related great person in one of their cities and a shiny new tech the person bought their way into power. Its better to rule in Hell than serve in heaven and all.
-'Benevolent ' people decide the rest of the Civs need 'uplifting' and start donating techs and
and such to lower ranked Civs.-'Man on a mission' a Scientist great person is spawned into the lesser Civ, as one of the hirer teched Civs random scientists or scholars moves there.
---
In short, there are much better ways to go about this than an ill defined
welfare system.I only found the sourcecode from the 1.00 revolutions mod. It uses different parameters so I guess it was somewhat rewritten for C2C.
It is quite advanced but very reasonable.
If you are 5 tech or more behind you get some free beakers. you need at least open borders with a civ that has the tech or contact with three civs with the tech. Defensive pacts and more people increases rates, (1 for contact, 3 for open borders, 4 for defensive pact op to a cap of 16, above 2 needed for spread). Then it is modified by power of the tech. (i.e. military techs spreads slower). It is then modified depending on how many techs are known in total. (i.e. slower spread unless all techs are known) If fewer then 8 techs behind bonus is lowered, if more then 12 behind it is increased.
I tried with some values and it seems like diffusion is somewhat slow. If all techs have been researched, no techs have power value and someone is 8 techs behind, but have 5 open border agreements with people how have all techs, he will get 7.5% of tech costs for all techs he can currently research. If he is 20 techs behind he will get 18%.
But the interesting thing is that if you do not want your tech to spread you can close your borders. If only you have a tech it will only spread to people that have open borders or defensive pact with you.
It is quite advanced but very reasonable.
If you are 5 tech or more behind you get some free beakers. you need at least open borders with a civ that has the tech or contact with three civs with the tech. Defensive pacts and more people increases rates, (1 for contact, 3 for open borders, 4 for defensive pact op to a cap of 16, above 2 needed for spread). Then it is modified by power of the tech. (i.e. military techs spreads slower). It is then modified depending on how many techs are known in total. (i.e. slower spread unless all techs are known) If fewer then 8 techs behind bonus is lowered, if more then 12 behind it is increased.
I tried with some values and it seems like diffusion is somewhat slow. If all techs have been researched, no techs have power value and someone is 8 techs behind, but have 5 open border agreements with people how have all techs, he will get 7.5% of tech costs for all techs he can currently research. If he is 20 techs behind he will get 18%.
But the interesting thing is that if you do not want your tech to spread you can close your borders. If only you have a tech it will only spread to people that have open borders or defensive pact with you.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Okay... STOP IGNORING ME!!!
Many of us have tried t explain it to you. It seems we aren't doing a good enough job.
1) It is not a welfare system it is an attempt at a real life mechanism.
2) I'll see if I can step through the code to give you what actually happens in an English form.
Tech diffusion is checked every turn and only occurs when
The amount of tech diffusion is then calculated (it may be zero)
Amount of research (XResearch) for a tech over which tech diffusion does not happen is calculated using the number of techs the leader has divided by the total number of techs available.
For each Tech that this civ can study
1)The nation has the tech required for tech trading or
2)They are behind the leader by at least the values in the Revilution.ini file (MinTechsBehind and BonusTechsBehind.
Not sure why it tests both values.2)They are behind the leader by at least the values in the Revilution.ini file (MinTechsBehind and BonusTechsBehind.
The amount of tech diffusion is then calculated (it may be zero)
Amount of research (XResearch) for a tech over which tech diffusion does not happen is calculated using the number of techs the leader has divided by the total number of techs available.
For each Tech that this civ can study
If the civ is more than 11 techs behind and hasn't studied more than XResearch in the current tech
then
then
This tech is a candidate for diffusion
For each nation that this civ is in contact with that has this tech and has the tech required for tech trading to occur: (Bug?)
For each nation that this civ is in contact with that has this tech and has the tech required for tech trading to occur: (Bug?)
If they are at war with this civ add 0.5 to diffusion modifier
If they have a defensive pact with this civ add 4
if they have open borders with this civ add 3
else add 1
If they have a defensive pact with this civ add 4
if they have open borders with this civ add 3
else add 1
Dang, I am late....back later...
Azurian
The Azurian
I am bumping this because I believe it needs a review.
Should the formula be revise to increase teach diffusion?
Why is this not a default game option?
Should the formula be revise to increase teach diffusion?
Why is this not a default game option?
SargontheGreat2
Modder
I still would like to see if the AI can be improved naturally in this regard. Yes, some more Tech Diffusion is in order (I'm thinking it may need to scale as e^(x/k), k being a constant and x being how many techs you are behind), but the only good solution is to make the AI better.
Because some people don't like it.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
The AI is all-too-willing to trade techs to each other; do people actually play without turning tech brokering off?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
The AI is all-too-willing to trade techs to each other; do people actually play without turning tech brokering off?
All the time. Let 'em trade.
JosEPh
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
All the time. Let 'em trade.
JosEPh
It'd bother me less if they were apt to give the players the same deals, but they're not. "You want a tech? Give me six techs, and a city" "Another AI wants my highest end militarty tech? Trade it to him for an obsolete dead-end road religion tech!"
