C2C - Building Review Thread

@DH:
Yes I know what it does and how powerfull it can be. Well, a "bit" powerful. Having like 5 Fish/Clam.... Reosurces more in your empire ha not that big impact on Sid's Sushi actually. I still think it's too expensive. Buildings and Wonders, no matter what they do, follow a strict shema. And the fish market just pop in the eye since it takes your cities like 2-3 times as long to build it compared to other wonders.

@Hydro:
My bad, I read it wrong. But still, my argument is valid: Even if you need specific resources for Sewer Systems and Waterpipes and assume they are already in place, you don't need any resource for the building "Pub Restrooms" itself. Just paper.

Or another example: You said the Megatower Office should not require Furniture since it requires Megatower which requires Skyscraper which requires Furniture. You said, having the MEgatower Office require Furniture would be redundant. But how am I supposed to imagine that? What if you lose access to Furniture after you build the Skyscraper? Will the Megatower "steal" it from the Skyscraper?

I don't recall saying the Megatower Office should have furniture. If I did it should not. It should only require Megatower + Modern Office.

Hydromancerx said:

I don't recall saying the Megatower Office should have furniture. If I did it should not. It should only require Megatower + Modern Office.

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Yes, that was what you said. And that's excactly the point

You said "the Megatower Office don't need a Furniture prereq. Furniture is covered by the Skyscraper." But you missed the fact that you can lose access to Furniture between those two. Another example would be the issue with this Steampunk Robot you suggested in the Unit thread:

You said it should only require Firearms. I said, it would also need Steel or Iron or something else that its body could be made of. And you said Iron is a prereq for Firearms and therefore you don't need it as a prereq for the robot too because it is "covered" by Firearms. But you can import just Firearms without Iron. Or build the Firearms-Maker-Buildnig and then lose access to Iron. It's basically the same thing.
You know what I mean?

A related issue: most modern buildings don't require Stone/Concrete/Steelwares/Wood. And I am curious why. What material are the walls, the ceilings, the floors made of?

Hydromancerx said:

I think that's more thanks to MrAzure and his adjustment to game speed, building speed and research speed.

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I know my cities are bored in my current game during ancient era, most are producing science.

A lot of this is due to all the empty techs, hopefully these get populated soon.

I have a whole bunch for Taxonomy but MrAzure is off on holiday so I don't know when his will be added.

Wireless Networks require Communication Satellites, which are limited to a maximum longitude of 60 Degree.
I think that Satellites (all of them) should not have a limit on longitude at all. They are ORBITAL. We need Probably a Launching Side that enables Satellites in all cities.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I have a whole bunch for Taxonomy but MrAzure is off on holiday so I don't know when his will be added.

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You and anyone can add anything approved to the new Techs.

I will be back to a full role on February 2nd, right now its limited to reading a few threads here on my phone. I can't mod when family is around or when I am away from home.

Yes, when you click on the blue links in the new Civics Screen the Pedia shows up. I'll give it to Thunderbrd to add to the core in a few days.

Since it is Python it is probably me that you should bother not Thunderbrd who seems a bit overtaxed as our only dll person at the moment. Not that it matters much it is just putting your files in the SVN and a final test after all.

Hydromancerx said:

I think that's more thanks to MrAzure and his adjustment to game speed, building speed and research speed.

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Nope thats not it, all those did was "delay" the inevitable" of when they are coming but they are still there.

What i found out is if you use the Upper Tech tree like Ship Building, there aren't many buildings in that path, only nearer to the bottom of the tech tree, are all the buildings.

1) @DH: I saw you merged my breeding-buildings into my general building files. I tought you wanted it as a seperate folder in the subdued animals mod. I have no problem with that, I'm just courious. Also, why did you merge the BuildingInfos, BuildingClassInfos and BuildingArt files but not the text file?

2) @DH: So you merged my BuildingArt into core? If I make new buildings, should I make a new art folder in my Buildings folder and put the art in there like I did before until you decide we can move it to the core again, or do you want me to set the path in the Art-File to the core fpk and upload the new icons I make here in the forum so you can merge it directly?

3) @ Hydro: I think some of my buildings still need Education added to them and in exchange have some removed, correct? If so, what was your formula to determine how much Education / they should have?

4) @Hydro: Since adding new buildings is "on hold" (more or less, I can still add the remaining two on the list) at the moment I was wondering if I would be beneficial if we'd move my buildings to your module in the appropiated folders. This way building would be at least a little bit less "spread" around different files and also more sorted. Also, you won't have to wait for me to make adjustments if needed.

1) That was because they were given to me to implement. 2) Every now and then you should consolidate art into the core so that they can be merged into the FPK files. It makes the whole mod slightly smaller and does speed up loading as the F in FPK stands for Firaxis

Faustmouse said:

3) @ Hydro: I think some of my buildings still need Education added to them and in exchange have some removed, correct? If so, what was your formula to determine how much Education / they should have?

4) @Hydro: Since adding new buildings is "on hold" (more or less, I can still add the remaining two on the list) at the moment I was wondering if I would be beneficial if we'd move my buildings to your module in the appropiated folders. This way building would be at least a little bit less "spread" around different files and also more sorted. Also, you won't have to wait for me to make adjustments if needed.

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3. having +1 means you will have +1 Education. Note that if you have +1% or +1 with X tech, it doesn't ad to education.

BTW which buildings are you talking about?

4. Yeah that could help. Where do you think things should go?

Thanks DH and Hydro!

3. Will do that "soon".

4. I'd prefer it if all buildings would be in the core, or at least in a module called buildings. In the module it might be usefull if buildings are divided by era. In theory, we COULD make it somewhat modular, that only buildings are loaded upon game start of your current era, all eras before that era and the next era the Techleader reaches. This might save some memory and speed up the game, but I have no idea how much excactly.

Master Hunter can be built by a Moon Bear or a Pig, but not by a Bengal Tiger or a normal Bear. If you would like me to review this list and come up with a complete list of proposed changes, let me know and I'll see what I can do. (It's probably a tedious job and I like those more than you guys do...)

Yudishtira said:

Master Hunter can be built by a Moon Bear or a Pig, but not by a Bengal Tiger or a normal Bear. If you would like me to review this list and come up with a complete list of proposed changes, let me know and I'll see what I can do. (It's probably a tedious job and I like those more than you guys do...)

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Currently Master Hunter can be built by any unit that produces enough only. I think I set it at 6 or more. I felt that that early in the game this was the only consideration people would give for what a master hinter did. I may have changed my mind mid way through and said 6 or 6.

I keep meaning to go through all the animals and make sure I have the amount of food and hammers from a kill, and butchering consistent but I never get the time. Food is just edible meat but hammers represent antlers, horn, bones, teeth, claws, fur/skin etc. so it would be good to look at separating that so there would be a bit more technology related variation. Antlers for example provide more hammers because they were used as picks to dig out dirt and stone, small bones were used as needles and awls and so on.

If you wanted to look into that I would appreciate it.

When Cooking can increase hunting outcomes by 1 (Does this actually work?!), then some Techs like Skinning, Boneworking, Composide Tools etc should also increase outcome. Or, which would probably more adequat: Can you actually limit / outcome from hunting? For example, an Elephant gives 6 and 6 . Until Cooporation, maximum you can get from killing it (good luck for that with your wanderer...), would be 1 . When you reach Coorporation, it's 2 and 1 . With Basketry, it's 4 and 2 and so on, until some tech (maybe Hunting Tactics) you can get the maximum of 6 and 6 . Note that if you kill a Pidgeon that only gives 1 , you won't get 4 and 2 from it with Basketry. They only increase the maximum amount of stuff your hunters can carry.

You could go a step further and add an "inventory" for hunters and they need to go back to your capital when they are "full" or they can't store more from killing.

And regarding the Master Hunter; I can imagine that if you were able to kill a tiger, you are a celebrety in your Clan. Therefore, I'd say that killing dangerous animals should also make a Master Hunter possible.

Faustmouse said:

When Cooking can increase hunting outcomes by 1 (Does this actually work?!), then some Techs like Skinning, Boneworking, Composide Tools etc should also increase outcome. Or, which would probably more adequat: Can you actually limit / outcome from hunting? For example, an Elephant gives 6 and 6 . Until Cooporation, maximum you can get from killing it (good luck for that with your wanderer...), would be 1 . When you reach Coorporation, it's 2 and 1 . With Basketry, it's 4 and 2 and so on, until some tech (maybe Hunting Tactics) you can get the maximum of 6 and 6 . Note that if you kill a Pidgeon that only gives 1 , you won't get 4 and 2 from it with Basketry. They only increase the maximum amount of stuff your hunters can carry.

You could go a step further and add an "inventory" for hunters and they need to go back to your capital when they are "full" or they can't store more from killing.

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They are supposed to but it does not. I have no idea where that comes from and if it is not the outcomes then I am glad it does not work because there is no way you can get much more food out of a pigeon no matter how good your tools.

The food and hammers have to be done by animal. There can be outcomes based on tech and buildings but the return for each outcome has to then be added into the unit definition. Except when the result is true for all units in a combat class. There is no way to make the outcomes additive as there can only be one outcome.

So yes you can have the amount change at every tech or availability of every resource if you want but it makes it very hard to change and we have a large number of animals.

We already have the option (via editing the c2c globals XML) to have to escort the animals back and since subdued animals can't reveal the map that means you almost have to escort every animal back.

Faustmouse said:

And regarding the Master Hunter; I can imagine that if you were able to kill a tiger, you are a celebrety in your Clan. Therefore, I'd say that killing dangerous animals should also make a Master Hunter possible.

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Actually records suggest that they were considered idiots. Loosing one person could mean death for the clan.

IMPO, those were the "good old days" when you Had to escort your subdued animals to the nearest city. If you got waylaid by an enemy unit all that hard work got taken. But if you waylaid one of them escorting it could be a bonanza.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

IMPO, those were the "good old days" when you Had to escort your subdued animals to the nearest city. If you got waylaid by an enemy unit all that hard work got taken. But if you waylaid one of them escorting it could be a bonanza.

JosEPh

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You can turn it back on if you like.

Edit A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.XML find DONT_ESCORT_SUBDUED_LAND_ANIMAL and change 1 to 0. The instructions for this are in the concept page of the pedia on animal subduing. It also tells you how to change the general spawn rates.

There is no way to stop the stories (Tales) of sea critters getting back though. They get back the same way that information about the world does.

Sea critters never bothered me as to escorting, different kettle of fish in my way of thinking.

I'll have to toggle this back on for my next C2C game. Thanks DH.

JosEPh