Range and sources of education property

Koshling

Vorlon
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I'm playing a version of he SVN that is about 3 weeks old, but I think this issue is the same regardless in the latest:

I find it's super-easy to get the education property well over 1000 in pretty much every city without going out of my way to do so. By the late classical or early middle age period this means the education property essentially is always maxxed, since nothing improves in terms of enabled buildings from about 300 or so upwards.

Either the sources need to be toned down so it is not so easily earnt, or more negative sources are needed, or the effects should be spread over a larger range.

Currently I would have to question whether it's really a worthwhile property at all (does it add much beyond buildings that contribute science directly or modify the science percent?). Bear in mind that property calculations add to the background workload that occurs every turn, so if one is not earning its keep in game-play terms, it should probably be disabled in the interests of performance.
 
Maybe there should be a way to burn education? Have specialty buildings essentially use a certain amount of the education for training workers, or go with specialty buildings not "use" education but require high amounts to be functional (while increasing the population penalty)?
 
It's somewhat of a double edged matter and I really like what it CAN become here. However, it currently doesn't have nearly enough decay.

We got a little stuck on how to establish it. For now I think we need to go with the simple route, making each pop reduce education each round like we have with crime as a base - dependent on game difficulty.

But there's been discussion about varying this value a bit by the housing buildings built reflecting the economic layers of the community and something like higher class buildings reduce education more (their people soaking up more of the educational opportunities) (but if housing remains a choiceless matter I don't think this would be the right way to go.)

I also feel there are buildings that should contribute to reducing education and we haven't done much with that either.

The main problem, I feel, is that nobody is taking full responsibility for this project and it really needs someone who fully understands properties to do so. This leaves the whole thing pretty out of whack. I've got too many other focuses myself at the moment.
 
@TB

I can try to balance it eventually. All properties I have either worked on or put in myself. However I have been distracted with Tourism and now Crime again. Guess education balance will have to be added to my TODO list. Note this is expected since now education has been in the mod long enough to get proper feedback. Something I could not really test when it was first put in.

In addition the "maxed out" problem can happen to any of the properties. So the issue is not really Education specific.
 
@TB

I can try to balance it eventually. All properties I have either worked on or put in myself. However I have been distracted with Tourism and now Crime again. Guess education balance will have to be added to my TODO list. Note this is expected since now education has been in the mod long enough to get proper feedback. Something I could not really test when it was first put in.

In addition the "maxed out" problem can happen to any of the properties. So the issue is not really Education specific.

Glad to hear you take the reigns then. I was wondering why we were working on developing the Tourism property before trying to calibrate the Education property properly first. But I don't think it'll be too hard to work out right.

I know there's some unit work still to do here too. DH and I have considered a number of things there. I've really gotta get past what I'm working on now to get that thrust forward more. But for now, just establishing a population consumption curve that works fair enough would be appropriate to get education working as it should in the interrim.
 
Currently I would have to question whether it's really a worthwhile property at all (does it add much beyond buildings that contribute science directly or modify the science percent?). Bear in mind that property calculations add to the background workload that occurs every turn, so if one is not earning its keep in game-play terms, it should probably be disabled in the interests of performance.

But is Education property in THIS game really necessary, again this effects turn times, which are more important i believe at this point in C2C.
Could we just drop it for NOW, and (maybe) come back to it alot later, just to get more balancing in now??
As said above, infact in all my games i have played i never even worried about this, just seemed senseless to have because it was always above the requirements and nothing to worry about INGAME.
And again as Koshling pointed out, in EVERY turn it has to recalculate, so it slows down turn times.
 
But is Education property in THIS game really necessary, again this effects turn times, which are more important i believe at this point in C2C.
Could we just drop it for NOW, and (maybe) come back to it alot later, just to get more balancing in now??
As said above, infact in all my games i have played i never even worried about this, just seemed senseless to have because it was always above the requirements and nothing to worry about INGAME.
And again as Koshling pointed out, in EVERY turn it has to recalculate, so it slows down turn times.
You could make it a city only property with no diffusion. That way the calculation will take negligible time.
 
You could make it a city only property with no diffusion. That way the calculation will take negligible time.

That's a very good idea. I'd assumed it already was but I suppose that those who set it up at the base did so as a copy of the crime mechanism eh? hmph.

We'd likely benefit from you (the programmer of the property structure in the first place) reviewing the xml on that and suggesting how to reset it properly.

I'd do this eventually but the list of things 'to do' is adding up at a rate that means I know things are going to be forgotten quickly if I try to take it all on.
 
Hmm, I didn't know that property diffusion was a significant contributor to turn time. Since I've finally gotten around to downloading v35, I'll put "remove diffusion from most properties" to my list of things I always edit before starting a game. I'll get back to you on whether removing disease and crime from terrain and making them city-only has any negative effect on gameplay.
 
Hmm, I didn't know that property diffusion was a significant contributor to turn time. Since I've finally gotten around to downloading v35, I'll put "remove diffusion from most properties" to my list of things I always edit before starting a game. I'll get back to you on whether removing disease and crime from terrain and making them city-only has any negative effect on gameplay.
That depends. It stays (nearly) constant as the game develops so if you have no significant turn times at the start of a new game then property diffusion does not matter much for you (and since property solving is entirely multithreaded it profits from having 2 or 4 cores in your processor).

The parts that really matter for turn times in mid game are the ones that scale at least quadratically with cities and/or units which means mostly AI.
 
That's a very good idea. I'd assumed it already was but I suppose that those who set it up at the base did so as a copy of the crime mechanism eh? hmph.

We'd likely benefit from you (the programmer of the property structure in the first place) reviewing the xml on that and suggesting how to reset it properly.

I'd do this eventually but the list of things 'to do' is adding up at a rate that means I know things are going to be forgotten quickly if I try to take it all on.

Well do you think Education even needs diffusion? If not I have no problem in having the education property have no Diffusion.
 
Ok! Having now actually played a v35 game for a bit and tweaked some of it, I can possibly have ideas.

The education property first off has a minor bug, its PROPERTYSOURCE_DECAY in CIV4PropertyInfos.xml is a negative number rather than a positive, meaning it has a geometric progression: once you get any education in a city, it will increase by greater and greater amounts forever, giving you all the high-education buildings before you even reach the ancient era.

Turning it from -4 to 4, and removing all diffusion to/from/between terrain plots so it becomes city-only: no bad effects. Education now "hovers" over a certain value, built up by buildings or specialists (I tweaked some specialists to make education), and decaying at 4%. So say my city is producing +4 education from buildings and specialists, it will now get up to 100 education, and hover there, giving me the 100 education autobuilding. But if I want the 1000 education building, I'll need to make a lot more sciency stuff.

But this is how it could work! Just use the decay mechanism, you don't need sources of negative education (well, maybe a couple, crime buildings especially will be candidates...yes both buildings you build that increase crime like pubs and casinos and terrorist compounds, and stuff you get from having high crime like school shootings and child labour). We could even have it depend on all the other properties! Like lead contamination from water pollution causing negative education. Low tourism causing "brain drain". High flammability making the school burn down every other turn.

Also, change all the negative education buildings to being active at low positive numbers, with say 1000 or so as the break-even point between losing the "bad" buildings and gaining the "good". That way you start off a game and gain all the uneducated buildings turn 1, which makes sense, and giving you less anarchy and food required for growth (great in early game) but trade penalties and all that (not all that bad). Then when you get enough stuff to have +40 or so education per turn your people finally get a basic standard of education not to have any penalties or bonuses.

Buildings like all those schools that are available at Compulsory Education could have their science bonuses removed entirely and replaced solely by education. If they allow you to break through the 5000 education barrier they'll give you all the science you'll need.
 
Ok! Having now actually played a v35 game for a bit and tweaked some of it, I can possibly have ideas.

The education property first off has a minor bug, its PROPERTYSOURCE_DECAY in CIV4PropertyInfos.xml is a negative number rather than a positive, meaning it has a geometric progression: once you get any education in a city, it will increase by greater and greater amounts forever, giving you all the high-education buildings before you even reach the ancient era.

Turning it from -4 to 4, and removing all diffusion to/from/between terrain plots so it becomes city-only: no bad effects. Education now "hovers" over a certain value, built up by buildings or specialists (I tweaked some specialists to make education), and decaying at 4%. So say my city is producing +4 education from buildings and specialists, it will now get up to 100 education, and hover there, giving me the 100 education autobuilding. But if I want the 1000 education building, I'll need to make a lot more sciency stuff.

But this is how it could work! Just use the decay mechanism, you don't need sources of negative education (well, maybe a couple, crime buildings especially will be candidates...yes both buildings you build that increase crime like pubs and casinos and terrorist compounds, and stuff you get from having high crime like school shootings and child labour). We could even have it depend on all the other properties! Like lead contamination from water pollution causing negative education. Low tourism causing "brain drain". High flammability making the school burn down every other turn.

Also, change all the negative education buildings to being active at low positive numbers, with say 1000 or so as the break-even point between losing the "bad" buildings and gaining the "good". That way you start off a game and gain all the uneducated buildings turn 1, which makes sense, and giving you less anarchy and food required for growth (great in early game) but trade penalties and all that (not all that bad). Then when you get enough stuff to have +40 or so education per turn your people finally get a basic standard of education not to have any penalties or bonuses.

Buildings like all those schools that are available at Compulsory Education could have their science bonuses removed entirely and replaced solely by education. If they allow you to break through the 5000 education barrier they'll give you all the science you'll need.

I fixed the Decay and made Education and Tourism City only in the SVN.
 
Some strong agreements and minor disagreements here... I'll share commentary:
The education property first off has a minor bug, its PROPERTYSOURCE_DECAY in CIV4PropertyInfos.xml is a negative number rather than a positive, meaning it has a geometric progression: once you get any education in a city, it will increase by greater and greater amounts forever, giving you all the high-education buildings before you even reach the ancient era.

Turning it from -4 to 4, and removing all diffusion to/from/between terrain plots so it becomes city-only: no bad effects. Education now "hovers" over a certain value, built up by buildings or specialists (I tweaked some specialists to make education), and decaying at 4%. So say my city is producing +4 education from buildings and specialists, it will now get up to 100 education, and hover there, giving me the 100 education autobuilding. But if I want the 1000 education building, I'll need to make a lot more sciency stuff.
Great catch! Certainly goes a long ways towards explaining some of the bloat from this mechanic.

And yes, no need for plot diffusion though a trade diffusion would be nice if we could get that working without it causing the 'sloshing tank' effect we were having trouble with.

@Alberts: I presume you set this to 4 then?


But this is how it could work! Just use the decay mechanism, you don't need sources of negative education (well, maybe a couple, crime buildings especially will be candidates...yes both buildings you build that increase crime like pubs and casinos and terrorist compounds, and stuff you get from having high crime like school shootings and child labour). We could even have it depend on all the other properties! Like lead contamination from water pollution causing negative education. Low tourism causing "brain drain". High flammability making the school burn down every other turn.
I'm in agreement that we should have good interactions like these. I'm in disagreement that population wouldn't be SOME drain at least. If we think of Education RATE as an indicator of the ability for society to provide a proper focus on educating its upcoming citizens (kids and older students alike), a rate deficit being an inability to keep up with the demand and a positive value being an ability to not only keep up but stretch to improve education methods and effectiveness, then population would clearly play a major role.

The larger class sizes get the less kids get individual attention and special needs met. In general the smaller the class size the better the results. There's other factors sure. But this is a really really big one.

I would not suggest making population's drain as strong as crime but perhaps half as strong would be good at least. Decay is important too... we quickly forget as we get older what we've learned in school. And factors in society, buildings, civics, ongoing crimes in common enough frequency, etc... would surely have an effect as well. Some crimes in particular more than others. I know gangs have kept more than one kid out of school, sometimes before highschool.

Then there could also be some counteractive value to some other factors... CPS, for example (Child Support Services for those who aren't in the US) may be well and capable of creating a LOT of family problems, as much as they solve in many cases, but at least they're there to make sure grade school kids don't disappear from the education system.

Anyhow, population matters. If we were all individually tutored our whole lives we'd all be a lot more educated I'm sure.

Also, change all the negative education buildings to being active at low positive numbers, with say 1000 or so as the break-even point between losing the "bad" buildings and gaining the "good". That way you start off a game and gain all the uneducated buildings turn 1, which makes sense, and giving you less anarchy and food required for growth (great in early game) but trade penalties and all that (not all that bad). Then when you get enough stuff to have +40 or so education per turn your people finally get a basic standard of education not to have any penalties or bonuses.
Since we can't establish a set minimum yet I'd rather see population be a drain and keep the negative buildings in the negative numbers realm. If you think of a very very early tribe, kids probably were well educated to the extent of what the adults knew at quite a young age, at least enough to see it as being neither a positive nor a negative when the game starts. Another way one could see the game starting at a neutral value, the game start may reflect when humanity actually begins to think enough past pure instinct to warrant the very concept of passing information from one person to another at all.

Buildings like all those schools that are available at Compulsory Education could have their science bonuses removed entirely and replaced solely by education. If they allow you to break through the 5000 education barrier they'll give you all the science you'll need.
I really like this idea... making it clear that there is a difference. However, research should indicate exactly that... research itself. Anything that pushes the boundary of knowledge. Education is our ability to catch up the renewing generations to what has been discovered.
 
I'm in agreement that we should have good interactions like these. I'm in disagreement that population wouldn't be SOME drain at least. If we think of Education RATE as an indicator of the ability for society to provide a proper focus on educating its upcoming citizens (kids and older students alike), a rate deficit being an inability to keep up with the demand and a positive value being an ability to not only keep up but stretch to improve education methods and effectiveness, then population would clearly play a major role.

The larger class sizes get the less kids get individual attention and special needs met. In general the smaller the class size the better the results. There's other factors sure. But this is a really really big one.

I would not suggest making population's drain as strong as crime but perhaps half as strong would be good at least. Decay is important too... we quickly forget as we get older what we've learned in school. And factors in society, buildings, civics, ongoing crimes in common enough frequency, etc... would surely have an effect as well. Some crimes in particular more than others. I know gangs have kept more than one kid out of school, sometimes before highschool.

Then there could also be some counteractive value to some other factors... CPS, for example (Child Support Services for those who aren't in the US) may be well and capable of creating a LOT of family problems, as much as they solve in many cases, but at least they're there to make sure grade school kids don't disappear from the education system.

Anyhow, population matters. If we were all individually tutored our whole lives we'd all be a lot more educated I'm sure.


Since we can't establish a set minimum yet I'd rather see population be a drain and keep the negative buildings in the negative numbers realm. If you think of a very very early tribe, kids probably were well educated to the extent of what the adults knew at quite a young age, at least enough to see it as being neither a positive nor a negative when the game starts. Another way one could see the game starting at a neutral value, the game start may reflect when humanity actually begins to think enough past pure instinct to warrant the very concept of passing information from one person to another at all.

I was about to say I disagree with population providing a negative effect on education. After all, higher population means a greater number (all else being equal) of excellent teachers, people who are just naturally great at it, and higher taxes to pay for them. It's not like disease or pollution where the concentration of people creates a problem in itself, at least not directly. Class sizes and devotion to education are more due to a civilisation's values, not its urbanisation or population. (Ok I'll get off my leftist high horse now.)

But then, gameplay. After size 36, every new population point will become a specialist (or unhappy person). So if some specialists provide education (I know it's not in the game yet but I tested it, it works fine, and is another way to customise specialists), and population has no effect, education will continue to increase without even any sort of societal change to justify it. Although...increasing urbanisation was a societal change post agricultural revolution leading in to the industrial revolution that did result in greater education standards eventually.

CPS is a point! Make it an Ordinance. +X education per city, probably +health too, a bit of -disease, hell chuck in a bit of -fire (there's a goon story about a hoarder who lost his kid to CPS, the place was easily a fire hazard too, the whole event got him to clean up his act), costs a judge, all the usual ordinance prereqs.

I don't quite agree on your whole negative thing. Simply trying to survive, thinking by instinct, being taught basic concepts by parents, where every thought and idea and lesson is devoted either to evading a predator or getting enough to eat, sure at least that's something, but that very tenuous "something" should be the lowest standard. What's the point of having a lower level? How could you even achieve it? Even in some crime ridden stinky futuristic hive city populated by mutants and cyborgs, with gangs and chems and timeline tampering, people who have children will still love them and try to pass on their knowledge to them and teach them to survive.


Anyway, glad you discovered that bug in the properties thing. When I saw it I was half-convinced it had been made intentional for some reason. I did something to help? Yay!
 
I don't quite agree on your whole negative thing. Simply trying to survive, thinking by instinct, being taught basic concepts by parents, where every thought and idea and lesson is devoted either to evading a predator or getting enough to eat, sure at least that's something, but that very tenuous "something" should be the lowest standard. What's the point of having a lower level? How could you even achieve it? Even in some crime ridden stinky futuristic hive city populated by mutants and cyborgs, with gangs and chems and timeline tampering, people who have children will still love them and try to pass on their knowledge to them and teach them to survive.
Probably a valid argument being made here to make a MINIMUM of 0 on this property itself but we don't have the ability to do that with properties. By nature, property values have no positive nor negative cap. So we must assume that 0 is the point where it's not good nor is it bad.

Education level (not rate) is the degree to which society is able to teach what it has learned throughout all the ages so far to its citizens. If Education levels were 1k or higher here in the US we'd all have PhDs in every subject and pretty much all people would know everything people have come to know throughout all the ages leading to today. Of course that's not the case. I'd estimate US education levels to be probably at about -100 on average. Depends on the city of course. Some would be worse, others better.

A society that has never built any schools and has not attempted to really develop any systems to nurture knowledge in its citizens will have a huge population of desperately undereducated but it'll still have a small caste of very intelligent people running the show. I'm sure you can imagine what America would be like if the public school system was simply shut down and no expectations were ever made on anyone to learn anything. Just start from there and you start to see how a civilization can devolve into EXTREME low education levels. Past a point it won't matter any further except to mean that it'll take even more effort to get it turned around.

By the time you have a large uneducated society, parents passing along their knowledge (enough to survive) to their kids (assuming the parents even care about that and most kids don't just grow up on the streets banding together for survival), sure there's a minimum of knowledge that each individual will possess but it still puts them far away from the cutting edge of the civilization's understanding on any given topic, nowhere near enough to contribute to the knowledge or discovery pool.

But there's a difference between what education represents and what knowledge is. The difference is key in understanding that education is not a measure of knowledge but a measure of how well an average citizen understands the things the civilization knows (aka the techs that have been discovered) and how capable the average citizen is of using that understanding to benefit the system as a whole.

But then, gameplay. After size 36, every new population point will become a specialist (or unhappy person). So if some specialists provide education (I know it's not in the game yet but I tested it, it works fine, and is another way to customise specialists), and population has no effect, education will continue to increase without even any sort of societal change to justify it. Although...increasing urbanisation was a societal change post agricultural revolution leading in to the industrial revolution that did result in greater education standards eventually.
I would love to see teacher specialists... we're just waiting on DH to enable more specialists is all.
 
Probably a valid argument being made here to make a MINIMUM of 0 on this property itself but we don't have the ability to do that with properties. By nature, property values have no positive nor negative cap. So we must assume that 0 is the point where it's not good nor is it bad.

You don't need to put a hard cap in. You can make 0 to negative infinity be the range of values that's bad, or 500 to negative infinity. You can allow it to go negative all you want, and just let 0 be what we imagine to be a total absence of formal education, 50000 BC. Surely someone will come up with a civics/building combo that produces a negative number, so where the property decay rate starts to work to increase the value, that's fine.

According to pop culture, America is rife with examples of what could be quantified as negative education (my own country too, to some extent). Where false information is provided as though it were truth, in total defiance of actual evidence or sheer physical law (so the C2C education property decays upwards). All those various politically-charged examples concerning basic biology or combustion or germ theory, that was sorted out over a century ago. I'd group them in with people who think the map is self.WrapX = False, but then I wouldn't want to insult the flat-earthers by association.

Actually, I'm sure some prehistoric peoples managed to figure out that if you expose a population of trees to fire on a regular basis, some will eventually become resistant, some will die out, and others will even get to the stage where they use the fire to help them germinate. And certainly these people taught this information to their descendants. Same with "don't poop upriver from where you drink" or "getting cow pox makes you resistant to smallpox" or "breathing too much smoke makes you sick, who'd 'ave thunk it?".

So...if we put that level of prehistoric education at 0, then we can put some contemporary religion-dominated counties of certain nations (plural) at negative values, and give them their own special auto-build buildings to recognise that fact. But it shouldn't be due to city population (and you'll catch hell for tying it to certain religions). Civics such as Intolerant maybe? Events such as that snake-oil one for the doctor's office?
 
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