How to use spies effectively?

I am having a bit of difficulty figuring out how best to use my spies. Either I'm doing something wrong or my spies are being recruited from the ranks of mall cops.

* My first game with spies I sent my first spy out to steal tech. While he was gathering intel, I had a tech stolen, got pissed, and brought him home for counter-intel, since he was a recruit, I stil got robbed blind even after I built constab and police.
* Next game I left him home and same thing, robbed blind
* Next game I sent him out, he stole a few techs (I lost a few) after 2 promotions I brought him back to my capital and he did a fairly decent job stopping tech theft

Ever since I've not really had much of a strategy with spies or I've already eclipsed the few civs I've met so he couldn't get promotions by stealing techs. It seems to me that unless you get your spies past recruit quickly, they can't do much. My later spies I dedicate to CS coups or send them to a civ that just rigged an election figuring they won't have a promoted spy in their capital.

What strategies are folks using with their spies that are effective?

I just had an emperor game of Rome where... basically it was in the middle of the T100s, and since I went deep bottom techs (Pangaea; no need for Astro when you want muskets and cannonae asap) and was behind the times in Literacy (6th IIRC), I parked my first spy in Delhi. Stole a tech but got caught red-handed; I just told Gandhi to stuff it. Then it turned into a funny show - every 5 turns I would steal a tech from him, stuff like Optics and eventually Astronomy and he never attempted to counter this.

The next epoch - I parked the 2nd spy in another capital. Got another tech steal... but this was slower and eventually we surpassed them big time it became an exercise in surveillance. Some spies were stealing stuff from our cap, but I didn't care much UNTIL some Chinese bugger stole Archaeology. That's... when I was already way ahead of the pack, 700+ bpt by T247 and hitting Biology before going for Atomic Theory. Promptly declared war on them just coz I could, and they were a nuisance and at that point everybody on that landmass but Moctezuma *hated* me guts.

After that... I would park my new spies in several potential caps just in case there is a way behind tech I needed to finish quickly. They didn't really do much, if any, in the way of stealing since raw science and GS bulbing and eventually an RA with Monty struck me through Info Era like hot knife butter. Launched in 1907 AD.

Normally, the AI reaches the Renaissance Era before me, so if it is an AI that I have met that achieves this, my spy goes there- they have to have something worth stealing. If I haven't met them, the spy goes into the nearest AI with the most advanced units. If I haven't met an AI, I put my spy into a CS.

They way I play, it is unusual for me to have a really valuable tech early on. Therefore I am prepared to lose a few low level ones.

How I use spies.

1. Steal techs (but I sometimes move them early if I don`t want to upset a good neighbour).
2. Spy on city and next developments.
3. To find out if a Civ is planning to attack me or maybe someone else.
4. See what`s going on in that area. I watched Spain get wasted by Persia on a another continent, by having a spy in a city near by.
4. Watch my own cities.
5. sometimes I stick one in an important Cs, if I can spare him.

I too have found it difficult to effectively manage my spies. It's frustrating to see your techs stolen from a city with a top ranked spy inside it. What is the point of having a top ranked spy if 3-2 out of 5 technology thefts still happen?

It is also frustrating when you are gathering intelligence for tech stealing when you suddenly get a message that their is nothing to steel after you research a tech.

KokeenoPokameso said:

I too have found it difficult to effectively manage my spies. It's frustrating to see your techs stolen from a city with a top ranked spy inside it. What is the point of having a top ranked spy if 3-2 out of 5 technology thefts still happen?

It is also frustrating when you are gathering intelligence for tech stealing when you suddenly get a message that their is nothing to steel after you research a tech.

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As for the first part, yes, it is very frustrating to lose techs even with a good spy on guard (you are still building a constabulary and police station as fast as you can too, right?), but at least you aren't losing them 100% of the time, which you likely would be without a spy posted there.

For the second part, the InfoAddict mod is invaluable. With it, you can see exactly how many techs each civ currently has already, so you aren't trying to steal from an 'iffy' target.

I find that if you are really far behind tech-wise, there's not much point in doing counter-intelligence. It's better to have all your spies stealing techs. If you lead in tech, definitely do counter-intel. I generally find that there is only one civ that is competitive with me tech-wise by the Renassiance, so my first goes to defense, and my second goes to tech stealing. What I do with the subsequent spies depends on my overall strategy:

If you are trying to gain allies, place spies in their enemies' cities. Then report whenever the enemy is plotting against them. This will put you on better terms.

If you are heavily reliant upon city-states, use your spies to influence them or counter-act the spies of your enemies.

Place spies in enemy cities where you are going to invade in advance of an invasion. The spies will provide sight, which can help bombing or artillery.

when i first get a spy i'll assess who is in the lead and who is my friend. if i intend to sign RAs i wont spy on them to steal techs. if they find out, you can lose favor with them and it might lead to a denouncement (with other things they dont like--friending their enemy, beating them to a wonder, stuff you might not have foreseen) nullifying that RA. sometimes you can get 2-3 cheap tech steals before they know it came from you. if they ask not to steal and i have no intentions of going to war with them i'll send them elsewhere. if i want to get them to declare on me ill leave him there even though he might get killed and i'll tell them im leaving him there. and getting techs stolen arent that big of a deal. i think it is worth more to let them steal while you are doing the same based on the vic condition you are going for. getting crappy techs you never wanted to tech to begin with is really handy when going for diplo/sci/cult vics. your RAs can be focused on more important beelines. but when they steal a nice tech that is close to the forefront of my techs i'll send him home if i know its a civ im at war with or am hostile/guarded with.

and spies dont just have to steal tech or prevent it. in diplo, spies in CSs are quite handy for retaining favor in the mid game. coups arent worth it unless you have about 80%+ chance of doing it. and even then ive lost spies so i dont try coups very often. i use them to rig elections on CSs i need more than others. and share intrigue. it helps a lot with relationships and even getting other civ's wars going.

and they are also huge for finding what wonders the AI is building. it requires a bit of micromanagement to keep from stealing if you dont want to anger a civ but knowing how many turns a civ is from the wonder you are going for is great. you can re-work your tiles to snipe it or switch to something else to avoid the wasted turns.

A good use of your second or third spy is to gather intrigue that can be shared with other civs for diplo brownie points and to spot check rival civs' tech development from the inside (you can glean lots of information from what they've built and what they haven't built). Re KokeenoPokameso's earlier post about frustration with spying for many turns only to find yourself teching the last tech that could be stolen from that civ, I recommend using the view button pretty regularly -- you can keep tabs on what they are building, how they are using specialists, etc., and make better decisoins about whether to move your spy elsewhere.

My most-frequent use of spies, when I'm at or near the tech lead, is to put my first spy in my capital to get leveled up killing spies (and forgiving the Ai for spying, for more diplo benefits), and then move that spy into my most-desired city state for the duration of the game. Next spy goes in the capital, gets leveled up, moves to CS, etc. In a tall empire, I will actually build constabularies, police stations and the NIA national wonder to get an additional spy and to level up my existing spies. Virtually all of them go into CSs and stay there. Longevity of a spy in a CS is key to protecting against coups--bouncing spies around from CS to CS is self-defeating.

Eagle Pursuit said:

Place spies in enemy cities where you are going to invade in advance of an invasion. The spies will provide sight, which can help bombing or artillery.

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that is something i will definitely try. never thought about scouting what kind of units would be more beneficial for a war against them. thanks for the tip.

Also don't place spies in the tech leader's capital. If an AI tries to prevent spies he will put his spy there. Its better in my experience to place it in another one of the AI's cities or put it in the cap of the AI who is second best in tech.

If you're up against Egypt it's a handy way of knowing which wonder they're building and whether you can finish before them.

Take intrigue with a pinch of salt, two Civ's told me Rammy was coming for me last night, we had open borders so two scouts wandered through his lands but he had hardly a unit.

Jelster said:

If you're up against Egypt it's a handy way of knowing which wonder they're building and whether you can finish before them.

Take intrigue with a pinch of salt, two Civ's told me Rammy was coming for me last night, we had open borders so two scouts wandered through his lands but he had hardly a unit.

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Yeah, and the warning "XXX is plotting against you" covers a lot of ground. I rather suspect that any conceivable thing one AI could say or do or ask of another that might have any negative impact on you, could fit in that category. Even minor, half-hearted things that never would go anywhere. Throughout any game, I'm constantly getting requests from other civs to join them in some military misadventure, most of which are patently ridiculous and categorically ignored. If that's all it takes for a spy to report another civ plotting against you or someone else, no wonder spy reports are so often misleading.

Another cause of spy reports appearing useless is changed circumstances, some of which may be caused by your behavior and other by other civs. In some games I've gotten an "X is plotting against you" warning, taken a look at the situation, made a few minor adjustments (sent a CB to garrison a city near X's borders or upgraded some units in that neighborhood) and X then apparently reassesses the cost-benefit ratio and chooses to DOW someone else. In those cases, X may ask me for a DOF before DOWing the other civ--doesn't mean they actually like me (just want to neutralize me) and doesn't mean the original "plotting" intel was spurious.

And sometimes "plotting against you" warning is followed by a war courtesy of the people you were warned against.

Yeah, just because Civ A may accurately report that Civ B is plotting against you, doesn't mean Civ A is sitting on its hands. If you overreact to Civ A's warning, you may make yourself appear more vulnerable to Civ A.

Browd said:

Yeah, just because Civ A may accurately report that Civ B is plotting against you, doesn't mean Civ A is sitting on its hands. If you overreact to Civ A's warning, you may make yourself appear more vulnerable to Civ A.

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Hadn't thought of it from that POV. I was only referring to Civ A's ACCURACY re Civ B's evil intent. Had an example of such accurate warnings just the other day.

Gucumatz said:

Also don't place spies in the tech leader's capital. If an AI tries to prevent spies he will put his spy there. Its better in my experience to place it in another one of the AI's cities or put it in the cap of the AI who is second best in tech.

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A good point...though getting techs from one of his other cities can be much slower, it's better than having your top-rated spy getting killed....which has happened to me a few times... particularly frustrating when you are behind and your spy has already done a good job stealing three or four techs for you...