New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

I'm just posting Absinthe's stuff from the other thread here so we can keep both threads organized. I omitted a few things that have no bearing on this thread/discussion...

I think we all got to a consencus that a nationalistic trait with espionage flavour and a seafaring one with some commercial and exploring flavour will be added

I think a better term for the seafaring one would be Mercantile though
Bonuses for these two are also more or less decided IMO, at least enough for a playtest.

Mercantile:
  • +1 movement to all naval units
  • +1 TR in all cities
  • DPS of Harbor, Custom House, Drydock (maybe even Market and Lighthouse)
  • Free promotions for Scouts and Explorers (Mobility, Sentry)

Nationalistic:
  • +2 espionage points per city
  • +1 happiness, +1-2 culture per National Wonder (in city built only) OR reduced cost of National Wonders (if the happiness bonus is hard to solve in xml)
  • DPS of Jail, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau, Mind Control Center
  • a free promotion for spies
  • minimal wait between revolutions may be still in, it's not included in the Spiritual trait (just in the Cristo Redento wonder)

Also, I just wrote this in the other thread, altough these are just the very first ideas, and a better name is certainly needed
Nomadic:
  • reduced or no maintenance cost from distance of cities
  • bonus yield form pillaging
  • some kind of mobility based promotion for your armies (Mobility or Flanking for example)
  • DPS of Stable
 
I personally prefer Mercantile, as I think naming it as "Seafaring" would be a bit limiting. I remember somewhere (maybe the main thread? or maybe never at all?) that I also said that "adventurous" or "enterprising" could be possible alternative names.

Anyhow, it's just a name anyways, and we don't need to be definition nazis about this. :mwaha:
 
I personally always liked Commercial

I agree about the limiting connotation of Seafaring, but for what the trait gives as a bonus, it might work the best.

Mercantile is too similar to Mercantilism IMO (spelling wise) and might create some connection among people who play. and for what its worth, the Mercantilism civic is somewhat of the exact opposite of what this Seafaring trait has been discussed as.

I don't like Adventurous either, doesn't sound right.



Regarding the 3 trait Idea I posted earlier before I left work, the commute home gave me time to think about it, and while I the idea does have some merit, it is a tremendous undertaking and is probably not very practical.

The hardest part I feel would be finding the necessary 54 Leaders for Nomadic/Seafaring. Although the Nomadic trait would already be comprised of say:

Alexander the Great (his empire fell apart after he died), Tamerlane, Attilla, Rugila (hun leader #2), Sargon of Akkad, All Mongol Leaders, Most Native American Leaders (Apache/Sioux/etc..) Many African Leaders, Even Hitler one could argue fits the mold in some respect that he used the blitzkrieg warfare and conquered (not personally, but administratively) much in a short period of time, that fell apart after he died. Napoleon in some respects also fits.

like i said though, its not very practical.

The Nationalistic comments was just used as an example, if the discussion was steared in that route, I would think a 3rd trait would have to focus on an infrastructure/administrative type bonus. and perhaps a 4th trait that would be a normal trait in the way we are accustom to them.
 
I prefer Seafaring as the name over Mercantile, if only because Mercantilism is a civic.

Agreed, let's keep it Seafaring.
Replace the +1 TR with either decreased maintenance of colonies or Drill 1 for all naval units.

I agree with nationalistic perfectly. +1 happiness *in all cities* for each national wonder is great. If that can't be done, than decreased national wonder cost is good too.

Nomadic could be interesting. However, if we get that, we need to get ourselves some Huns soon. :p
Nomadic would also give our many native civs (and you were planning on doing a native module pack, right?) a nice new trait especially.
I fully support it.

The only other traits I could think of that could be used are Agrarian (to represent the leaders that focused entirely on a more simplistic lifestyle, ie Tibetan leaders or Ho Chi Minh, or leaders that vastly improved the health of their empire) or Progressive (which Philosophical has come to mean. Something for the leaders that basically jumped their nation up an era, like Elizabeth I and Meiji.)

That's the thing, I kinda want traits that sort of... encompass major leaders.
That's how I've always viewed things. Traits need to be things that major leaders in the past have heavily emphasized.
We already have our trait for the leaders that vastly improved trade/commerce/the economy (Financial), so I'm -strongly- against adding another.

Nationalistic sums up our stereotypical dictators, our security-obsessed leaders, our men with secret police.
Seafaring sums up our naval leaders. Our vikings, our colony makers, our seafaring peoples (Phoenicians really need this.)

Nomadic is great because it does represent sort of the opposite of imperialism. Loose confederations, constantly roving. Expansion, but decentralized.
 
I don't think Nomadic is necessarily the opposite of Imperialism, but rather "imperialism on the fly/run" like the Mongols and Huns did it. There was very little semblence of a political center, which of course had its drawbacks and its benefits. But again, I think what we've managed to do here is create even more discussion over something that, ultimately, is simply there to make us happy and not so much there to enhance gameplay/the mod. I think we should be careful not to go overboard on this.

So I am still thinking that, while three traits would be very cool, sticking to the two new ones discussed is probably the best way to go.

EDIT: And just to expand a bit on the differences between Hunnic/Mongol imperialism and say Roman/Persian imperialism would be that the Romans and Persians held on to the territory and generally left the population/culture the same. The Huns and Mongols did something quite different, and often drove the people from the land (all the migrations they caused). So that would be the distinction I would draw.
 
I agree with nationalistic perfectly. +1 happiness *in all cities* for each national wonder is great. If that can't be done, than decreased national wonder cost is good too.

LOL, no
I suggested +1 happy faces in the city where you build the National Wonder, of course.

+1 happiness in all cities is gamebreaking. It would make religions, happiness buildings, even happiness resources almoust totally useless, as you get ~15 happy faces just from NWs throughout the game...
But I already said the exact same thing to you once before, you don't even read what other's react to your posts?? :p

Actually, I don't even know where did you get that I suggested that.
What I wrote exactly: +1 happiness, +1-2 culture per National Wonder (in city built only).
Even if you want to misread this, you can only get +1 happy faces in all your empire (regardless of NWs or anything) and +1-2 culture per NW (in city built only) :p
 
I prefer Seafaring as the name over Mercantile, if only because Mercantilism is a civic.

Mercantile is too similar to Mercantilism IMO (spelling wise) and might create some connection among people who play. and for what its worth, the Mercantilism civic is somewhat of the exact opposite of what this Seafaring trait has been discussed as.

Alright, I'm convinced because of the Mercantilism civic, drop the name Mercantile.
I also don't like the previously mentioned Adventureous and Enterprising.
Maybe Commercial won't be bad either, but right now Seafaring seems the best name choice, even with the trade based bonuses included in it.
The only thing because I'm still hoping to find something better, because Seafaring is not an actual personal quality, like most of the other traits


I don't think Nomadic is necessarily the opposite of Imperialism, but rather "imperialism on the fly/run" like the Mongols and Huns did it. There was very little semblence of a political center, which of course had its drawbacks and its benefits. But again, I think what we've managed to do here is create even more discussion over something that, ultimately, is simply there to make us happy and not so much there to enhance gameplay/the mod. I think we should be careful not to go overboard on this.

So I am still thinking that, while three traits would be very cool, sticking to the two new ones discussed is probably the best way to go.

Keep in mind, why I suggested this trait in the first place. We lack of good traits for these kind of leaders, and the few that fits them would get repetitive very soon:

We barely have possible traits for leaders like Attila, Arpad, some of the natives, or leaders of semi-nomadic tribes. Even some of the african civs could get something like that, if the bonuses of the trait are well choosen. Of course Genghis Khan and other similar Vanilla leaders could also get that, Imperialistic barely suits him...

Just an example why it is needed: for most of these leaders Imperialistic, Industrious, Financial, Organized are out of the question, along with the new Seafaring and Nationalistic traits (because of the espionage part). Also doesn't seem the best choice in most cases: Philosophical, Spiritual, Protective, Creative, the nomadic style is clearly not the best for those either...
So that leaves us only with Aggressive, Charismatic and Expansive, and for many leaders even Expansive is a bad choice :S

So we could and should make the bonuses for this trait to fit others too, not just the Genghis/Arpad/Attila and similar leaders. Like most of the Native Americans and some of the early African/Arabian tribes.
With giving generic nomadic bonuses (reduced maintenance cost from cities, DPS from stable, etc) we can easily find at least 20 leaders whom the trait suits very well
 
My 2c on naming the trait:

I agree Mercantilism is not good because of the civic. Likewise I would rule out Commerical because it implies a connection to commerce (the yield type). Adventurous is too vague a term and makes me think of Conan and Aragorn and the likes.

I prefer Enterprising over Seafaring, simply because I dislike the strict nautical connotations of the latter. In the end though I think either work well enough.
 
I'll bend and go with Enterprising then. Just to sort it out though, do we want +1 TR per city, or per coastal city?

And don't get me wrong on the Nomadic thing, I am not wholly against it, what I am against is adding it simply for the sake of adding it. And as I have said before, we are not catering the mod towards the modules, so there is no need to bring up Attila at all when discussing these traits. My intention was to have more traits (and in general more "stuff") in the deluxe edition, but if you guys think we need a Nomadic trait, then we can discuss the possibility. For one I'm axing the no maintenence, that is completely overpowered, if I had no maintenence nothing could stop me in civ (at least with my playstyle). We can possibly go on some reduced maintenence route, but I'm still a bit hesitant to add it. So what else are we thinking here? +25% pillaging yield, DP on stables, -25/50% maintenance cost for distance from capital.
 
About that seafaring name, my suggestion would be Colonial or something. Another option could be renaming the Mercantilism Civic to Economic Nationalism or something, and thus creating a gap between that civic and the trait. When it come's to nomadic, i don't think we should include it from the start, but it may come with the modules later on. There my suggestions for bonuses is:
- DPS for Stable
- Free Looting Promotion
--- Mounted Units
--- Melee Units
- -20% maintaince from distance to palace
 
I'll bend and go with Enterprising then. Just to sort it out though, do we want +1 TR per city, or per coastal city?

And don't get me wrong on the Nomadic thing, I am not wholly against it, what I am against is adding it simply for the sake of adding it. And as I have said before, we are not catering the mod towards the modules, so there is no need to bring up Attila at all when discussing these traits. My intention was to have more traits (and in general more "stuff") in the deluxe edition, but if you guys think we need a Nomadic trait, then we can discuss the possibility. For one I'm axing the no maintenence, that is completely overpowered, if I had no maintenence nothing could stop me in civ (at least with my playstyle). We can possibly go on some reduced maintenence route, but I'm still a bit hesitant to add it. So what else are we thinking here? +25% pillaging yield, DP on stables, -25/50% maintenance cost for distance from capital.

Oh I never meant no maintenance for Nomadic, it's clearly over the top. I was only thinking reduced or no maintenance from distance to palace, maybe I mistyped this somewhere.
But you are right about that, even this can be pretty powerful, so we should go with the -50% maintenance if we add this. I consider this a very good and very generic bonus for "nomadic" leaders, this would even suit Logan or Crazy Horse pretty well, maybe even Cetshwayo and some other african leaders could get that.
So the trait wouldn't be pointless in the main release at all, and later with civs like Huns and much more natives and semi-nomadic tribes it would reach it's full usefulness.
We just need to add not too civ-specific bonuses, for example the free looting promotion is also good for many of these leaders
 
Alright, one more thing and I think I can accept adding nomadic. Perhaps a bonus for mounted units, or maybe something having to do with the Stables?

I know double production speed of stables was mentioned, but that is pretty worthless. Stables are quick to build anyway.

EDIT: How about all mounted and melee start with looting (I'll have to add that) and commando (that's the enemy roads one right?).
 
Commando may be a too powerful promotion for this, as it is only availeable for at least level 5 units.
But I'm sure we can find something cool bonus, maybe increased withdrawal chance?
 
Here's a quote from me by the post over Absinth's last one
When it come's to nomadic, i don't think we should include it from the start, but it may come with the modules later on. There my suggestions for bonuses is:
- Free Looting Promotion
--- Mounted Units
--- Melee Units
- -20% maintaince from distance to palace
Just thought you didn't see it :)
 
Of course we saw, and both of us even included your suggestion of free Looting promotion :)
It was a good idea
 
Well, I'm just as happy not adding the Nomadic trait as I am adding it. Like I said before, I'm still iffy on adding a third trait. Maybe we should just stick to the two we came up with before.
 
Then don't. Including it in soem kind of module focusing on Barbarian and Nomadic Nations would be an idea then. You will not have to do it right away, and will have enought time to think about how it shoul be. Include it later = problem solved.
 
I'll bend and go with Enterprising then. Just to sort it out though, do we want +1 TR per city, or per coastal city?

I'd recommend +1 TR for all cities. Firstly I think inland cities need at least some benefit from this trait, coastal trade routes are naturally powerful than inland ones anyway, so it retains that maritime element anyway. Secondly it is easier to code for all cities.

Alright, one more thing and I think I can accept adding nomadic. Perhaps a bonus for mounted units, or maybe something having to do with the Stables?

I know double production speed of stables was mentioned, but that is pretty worthless. Stables are quick to build anyway.

EDIT: How about all mounted and melee start with looting (I'll have to add that) and commando (that's the enemy roads one right?).

This is what I'd suggest for A Nomadic Trait:

• +100% gold from Pillaging
• -25% War Weariness
• +1 happiness from Stable -OR- free Flanking I for Mounted (and Naval?) units

Pillage bonus can be done in Python, War Weariness reduction in Python+fake building, and both the Stable and Promotion just in XML.

I think reduced maintenance is not at all appropriate for Nomadic/Pastoral civs as their lack of dedicated government historically made their conquests more expensive to manage; thus why so many empires fell apart so quick. However, reduced War Weariness is a similar economic benefit and life in the saddle adapts very well to warfare.

I suggest a naval promotion only because it's a) possible for both to have Flanking and b) could at a stretch represent 'piratical' leaders if there ever were to be any.
 
I'd recommend +1 TR for all cities. Firstly I think inland cities need at least some benefit from this trait, coastal trade routes are naturally powerful than inland ones anyway, so it retains that maritime element anyway. Secondly it is easier to code for all cities.



This is what I'd suggest for A Nomadic Trait:

• +100% gold from Pillaging
• -25% War Weariness
• +1 happiness from Stable -OR- free Flanking I for Mounted (and Naval?) units

Pillage bonus can be done in Python, War Weariness reduction in Python+fake building, and both the Stable and Promotion just in XML.

I think reduced maintenance is not at all appropriate for Nomadic/Pastoral civs as their lack of dedicated government historically made their conquests more expensive to manage; thus why so many empires fell apart so quick. However, reduced War Weariness is a similar economic benefit and life in the saddle adapts very well to warfare.

I suggest a naval promotion only because it's a) possible for both to have Flanking and b) could at a stretch represent 'piratical' leaders if there ever were to be any.

This version of nomadic sounds good.

However, I must again state I'm -strongly- against the Enterprising thing.
It seems like a pointless overlapping trait. The leaders that would fit it best already have Financial. Just seems kinda like a lame way of making a seafaring trait more economic-related.
 
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