Is tundra faith pantheon underrated?
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HeliosDisciple
Warlord
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It seems kinda weird how awesome desert is in this game.
If GotH is not available, one could always fill out piety and conquer the Holy City of the civ that has GotH.
kaspergm
Deity
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Even if you start next to many tundra hills, DotA still sucks big time because you'll not work these tiles before you have a quite high population because you'll always favor food tiles early.
So in regards to OP: My answer would be no. Tundra starts are generally bad, and DotA is almost indiscriminately horrible. In the cases where you do get a good Tundra start, you'll almost always be better off picking beliefs like Earth Mother (many Iron/Salt nearby), Goddess Of Hunt (almost always great for Tundra starts but needs secondary faith source), God Of The Sea (if you have many sea resources, but same objections as GotH), Stone Circles (if you have Stone/Marble nearby), Tears Of The Gods (if you have Pearls/Gems) or Religious Idols (Silver/Gold).
Amrunril
Emperor
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You won't work tundra hills early on (except maybe when building settlers or rushing a wonder), but if you can get 5 or so faith in the early game from resource tiles and city centers and later on add more from mines, you're starting to look at a very solid pantheon choice. Dance of the Aurora will never be able to match a good Desert Folklore start (nor will any other pantheon), but there are plenty of maps where it can compete with the other pantheons you mention.
^^ I agree with Amrunril. I would rather have a tundra start over plains.
Dushku
Prince
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"I would rather have tiles with -1 hammer for the possibility of +1 faith." I don't find this to be a credible claim. Could you elaborate please?
First, we are talking about the cap -- so the dirt the game will give you is not terrible. It would be rare for me to be okay with putting an expo in barren tundra -- but the cap will do fine.
Second, I really like founding, and DotA works pretty well for that. So if the choice is between plains+no_religion or tundra+religion -- I would take the tundra start every time.
Just to be clear, I would probably take Earth Mother, Stone Circles, or Tears of the Gods, or Religious Idols over DotA. But I would happily take DotA over GoH or GotS.
Dushku
Prince
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I rather enjoy the faith/religion aspects of the game myself. I'll be more considerate of this viewpoint next time I find myself in a similar situation.
How would you guys rate DotA on a map like this - the Diety DCL Rome map
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=535369
You've got at least 3 sheep around you and probably more resources hidden. You'll steal a worker early and you'll quickly have pastures on those tiles so they'll be pretty strong tiles.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=535369
You've got at least 3 sheep around you and probably more resources hidden. You'll steal a worker early and you'll quickly have pastures on those tiles so they'll be pretty strong tiles.
kaspergm
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GoH (and GotS) are definitely risky pantheons, but don't underestimate the power of GotH. If you have a tundra start that will always mean many Deer and often also either Fur or Truffles as your primary luxes. In such a case, GoH can make a huge difference, but obviously it works best if you start close to a faith-generating NW or get really lucky with a religious city-state (which is unlikely). I would take GoH and throw a couple of early policies into Piety to get quick Shrines/Temples with extra faith instead of taking DotA in almost any case where I have a tundra start, but admittedly I play with a range of mods that change the overall balance with policies, so I realize that may not be viable in unmodded game.
A good food pantheon site can be a game-changer imo even more so than a decent faith pantheon.
Religion can be good in a game - but it typically takes a long time to get the benefits after you found and then only if you have decent amount of faith.
Extra population though -eg from camps is insane. In the end it's population that tends to win a game, not religion. Anyway you can always use another civs religion.
Personally having multiple early 4 food 2 hammer camps far outweighs working mediocre tiles just to get faith.
Oh! I have not played that one! I would rate that start as perfect for DotA. SIP and then three tundra hills w/ sheep so that is plenty to found, and the sheep adds the food so no-compromise tiles to work. Plus, no temptation for GotH. The sea pantheon is not so great for non-naval civs either.
Well, in the unmodded game, the policies in Piety really nerf Tradition or Liberty -- and faith from shrines is too meager to really help your chances to found.
I have been having good luck lately with closing out Liberty before last religion is gone. So I think that may be my go-to strategy for non-faith dirt.
Don't get me wrong, GotH is great. The small fixed amount of food is super important early, and pretty much irrelevant by mid game. So losing my pantheon does not hurt!
GPr are the least expensive GP to faith purchase. Conversion quests are easy. You can always use another civs religion if you found.
You only work the mediocre tiles after your pantheon and until you found. Not too much of a compromise for something that adds interest all game long.
So what do you think of DotA for that DCL map?
miaasma
King
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tundra starts are generally pretty miserable. the game seems especially bad at mitigating how useless tundra is with decent food tiles, so i'll spawn in the tundra (with some scattered plains tiles) with maybe 1-2 sea resources or a deer tile and that's it. i think that could have been done better
there are a few cases where i would take dance of the aurora when spawning in the tundra over something else that could make circumstances more bearable like goddess of the hunt or even fertility rites. tundra salt starts almost feel like a slap in the face but dance of the aurora may actually benefit you more than earth mother in this scenario if you are trying to accumulate faith, since any hills or non-forested deer will contribute as your city grows. having several sources of copper may also make it a better choice than earth mother
definitely few and far in between though. and i normally just reroll tundra starts
there are a few cases where i would take dance of the aurora when spawning in the tundra over something else that could make circumstances more bearable like goddess of the hunt or even fertility rites. tundra salt starts almost feel like a slap in the face but dance of the aurora may actually benefit you more than earth mother in this scenario if you are trying to accumulate faith, since any hills or non-forested deer will contribute as your city grows. having several sources of copper may also make it a better choice than earth mother
definitely few and far in between though. and i normally just reroll tundra starts
My thoughts exactly! Petra is easily the most overpowered wonder in the game. There is nothing for Tundra to match this.
As I understand it, the way map the generator works is that it thinks plains are strong and desert weak. It wants starts to be balanced, so it buffs desert starts and is stingy with plains. As a consequence, starts on grasslands and desert are noticeably above average. I am not clear where tundra comes in, but certain tundra starts seem below average.
I think that is doing yourself a disfavor. Nothing wrong with walking away from a game you cannot win, but I think that is giving up too quick.
Any ideas for what that could be historically? Yes, a wonder specifically for dirt that is already above average is not really very well balanced!
killmeplease
Mk Z on Steam
there should not be anything to match, but petra toned down
kaspergm
Deity
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I think values are:
Plains = 4
Grass = 3
Tundra = 2
Coast = 2 (not sure if this was actually changed with BnW ocean yield changes?)
Desert = 1
Snow = -1
Features are added on top of this:
Hill = +1
Forest = +1
Freshwater = +1
River = +1
Jungle = -1
Marsh = -1
Ice = -1
Some terrain + feature combos are constant and not additive:
Flood Plains = 5 (no further bonus for river/freshwater)
Oasis = 4 (no further bonus for freshwater)
Mountain = -2
When game creates starting locations, it will sum up the values of the tiles around the potential starting location and add additional bonus resources if score of one area is too low. Since forest/tundra tiles count as 3 in this regard, whereas flat desert tiles only count as 1, there seems to be a tendency for desert start to get many bonus and make them quite worthwhile in spite of having also a lot of fertile floodplains tiles. On the other hand, tundra starts don't have that many fertile tiles, because even Tundra/River tiles still suck pretty badly and hence tend to suck. The fact that the occasional plains tile works against the tundra start (counts as 4 when dry and 5 when on river, in spite of not being a great tile) only emphasizes this.
miaasma
King
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it definitely is giving up too quick, but i play on immortal difficulty so rarely will a tundra start ever really be workable. and most tundra starts i get are the sort i mentioned before, with almost no food tiles and little production to make up for it
certainly though i'll at least look around for redeeming qualities before just restarting
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