adcarrymaokai
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2013
- Messages
- 1,616
The peasants are waiting.
DEITY CHALLENGE - aiming for sub 200T victory
- Thread starter IronfighterXXX
- Start date
Ya lol at least throw a screenshot at us. Of course a video is awesome though.
Memoryjar
Emperor
Acken
Deity
I finished my Babylon game at turn 204 and submitted for HoF. Would have needed slightly better science to finish sub200, my cities were a little low pop during the game.
If someone wants the pre-ideology or initial save I can provide it.
Same strategy as previously mentioned (freedom etc).
Maybe I'll give it another go if I can find another good map.
If someone wants the pre-ideology or initial save I can provide it.
Same strategy as previously mentioned (freedom etc).
Maybe I'll give it another go if I can find another good map.
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
Acken
Deity
I have 3 coal for 5 cities but I settled 2 academies (first one and first natural GS)
Give me some time to find it.
Give me some time to find it.
Acken
Deity
Here is my ideology T146 save (after completion of oxford, you'll have to take radio and spend a turn). If I remember correctly industrialisation should be finished or the next turn revealing coal (3).
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
Sigh... You have those scrambled map packs. Can't play 
Anyway since you settled two academies and there isn't coal for all cities results between freedom and order can't be good compared
Anyway since you settled two academies and there isn't coal for all cities results between freedom and order can't be good compared
Acken
Deity
Ha sorry about that
That is why I like the Deity Challenges. Thanks to whoever spends the time to roll the maps for us but as we all know victory times are hugely dependent on the start. Especially for Deity players. For HoF games it really would come down to who want roll a bunch of maps, and then play out the first 20-40 turns to see which candidates are best. Such a waste of time.
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
I don't play deity challenges because I like competition and they don't have specific victory condition without which for me they are pointless.
You may think that rerolling for the ideal map is very big advantage - well it is big
, but a lot of can go wrong (like in my Spain game) and you got no way to reload to "undo" your mistakes (unlike in those deity challenges) so it requires skills as well.I already answered to Tommy why my challenge is in HOF rules.
Memoryjar
Emperor
It's my main preference for HoF rules. Even you rolled a god map, you can screw your game with some blunders.
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
The problem is, there is no "perfect" solution without a server-side solution.
The way it *should* work IMHO in an ideal world is this:
* Civ would have a checkbox for HOF mode. In HOF mode, you are a client to a dedicated server run by Firaxis (or the HOF staff) and play your entire game as a single-player online session.
* Since you can't play without the server, you can't reload or hack your savefile.
* There are no local save files. (preventing some of the more obvious HOF exploits)
* A disconnect would trigger an immediate save on the server, so if the client crashed or lost connection, nothing would be lost, and *no steps could be replayed*
* Multiple people could play from the same starting autosave in "Competition" mode.
Advantages:
1) This would allow you to save and quit repeatedly as long as you didn't reload. This would make playing HOF games WAAAY easier on those of us who can't play for long sessions. As it stands right now I have to leave the game running with my computer in sleep mode for 12-24 hours, and that eventually causes audio and graphics corruption, sometimes crashes. In fact, the only time you will see my logs show multiple sessions is due to saving and quitting because the graphics had become unplayable. Part of the reason I do this is because I like to play in "true" hardcore HOF mode. (1 session) If there's only one session, it means you never reloaded.
2) This would make it much harder to cheat. Right now there are ways to cheat deity challenges and HOF games that the staff cannot detect or prevent.
Disadvantages:
1) playing offline would be impossible for HOF
Currently, Deity challenges can be reloaded over and over from the starting autosave. Meaning you can play through, learn the map layout, opponents, ruin locations, etc. and then replay until you get a great start, or luckier outcomes of mid-game randomness. I know most people don't do it, but the fact that some do (undoubtedly) ruins the fun for me.
HOF is subject to similar malicious behavior, because if you save infrequently enough, there's nothing but honor to prevent you from reloading those infrequent saves *as many times as you want*. However, because the first 30 turns are the most important, usually, it's harder to maximize the start. So it's *somewhat* less susceptible to exploit.
Both, unfortunately, are subject to the "play through the whole game, learn the layout, then replay from a mid-game save" exploit, but Deity Challenge is way worse, because you can memorize ruin locations, CS locations, AI city locations, and this *greatly* aids early conquest, and snowball effect from worker-stealing and ruins.
If you don't think this sort of exploit is going on, well, you must be new to the internet. Having worked on a large number of multiplayer and MMO titles, I can promise you, this is going on right now in HOF and Deity challenge. Any game that can be exploited *is being exploited*.
So, for now I prefer HOF. But only barely. My idea would be better. WAY better. Firaxis should hire me to implement it.
The way it *should* work IMHO in an ideal world is this:
* Civ would have a checkbox for HOF mode. In HOF mode, you are a client to a dedicated server run by Firaxis (or the HOF staff) and play your entire game as a single-player online session.
* Since you can't play without the server, you can't reload or hack your savefile.
* There are no local save files. (preventing some of the more obvious HOF exploits)
* A disconnect would trigger an immediate save on the server, so if the client crashed or lost connection, nothing would be lost, and *no steps could be replayed*
* Multiple people could play from the same starting autosave in "Competition" mode.
Advantages:
1) This would allow you to save and quit repeatedly as long as you didn't reload. This would make playing HOF games WAAAY easier on those of us who can't play for long sessions. As it stands right now I have to leave the game running with my computer in sleep mode for 12-24 hours, and that eventually causes audio and graphics corruption, sometimes crashes. In fact, the only time you will see my logs show multiple sessions is due to saving and quitting because the graphics had become unplayable. Part of the reason I do this is because I like to play in "true" hardcore HOF mode. (1 session) If there's only one session, it means you never reloaded.
2) This would make it much harder to cheat. Right now there are ways to cheat deity challenges and HOF games that the staff cannot detect or prevent.
Disadvantages:
1) playing offline would be impossible for HOF
Currently, Deity challenges can be reloaded over and over from the starting autosave. Meaning you can play through, learn the map layout, opponents, ruin locations, etc. and then replay until you get a great start, or luckier outcomes of mid-game randomness. I know most people don't do it, but the fact that some do (undoubtedly) ruins the fun for me.
HOF is subject to similar malicious behavior, because if you save infrequently enough, there's nothing but honor to prevent you from reloading those infrequent saves *as many times as you want*. However, because the first 30 turns are the most important, usually, it's harder to maximize the start. So it's *somewhat* less susceptible to exploit.
Both, unfortunately, are subject to the "play through the whole game, learn the layout, then replay from a mid-game save" exploit, but Deity Challenge is way worse, because you can memorize ruin locations, CS locations, AI city locations, and this *greatly* aids early conquest, and snowball effect from worker-stealing and ruins.
If you don't think this sort of exploit is going on, well, you must be new to the internet. Having worked on a large number of multiplayer and MMO titles, I can promise you, this is going on right now in HOF and Deity challenge. Any game that can be exploited *is being exploited*.
So, for now I prefer HOF. But only barely. My idea would be better. WAY better. Firaxis should hire me to implement it.
Acken
Deity
What you propose is Ironman in other games, just have to make it synchronize with a cloud.
Personally I agree with Tommy, HoF rules are dumb.
If you are testing player ability - people should play the same map and compare best results (then its actually a test of skill rather than who has the longest to roll the best start).
If you are testing what's the quickest win time for a SV, then HoF rules are just imposing restrictions that will slow that down.
If Tommy has done sub 200 turns, be nice to see his turn 0 savethough
If you are testing player ability - people should play the same map and compare best results (then its actually a test of skill rather than who has the longest to roll the best start).
If you are testing what's the quickest win time for a SV, then HoF rules are just imposing restrictions that will slow that down.
If Tommy has done sub 200 turns, be nice to see his turn 0 savethough
Personally I agree with Tommy, HoF rules are dumb.
If you are testing player ability - people should play the same map and compare best results (then its actually a test of skill rather than who has the longest to roll the best start).
If you are testing what's the quickest win time for a SV, then HoF rules are just imposing restrictions that will slow that down.
If Tommy has done sub 200 turns, be nice to see his turn 0 savethough
There is a different skill being tested. When you do not know what the map looks like, or who you are playing against, you will make different choices than if you know where everything is ahead of time. You play safe, and what you know will work, rather than tweaking for the perfect game.
Both methods require a different skill set. Playing blind probably requires a bit more know how than replaying a map, but both are useful to learn.
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
Exactly, without foreknowledge or infinite re-rolls, you can't afford to take huge risks. So you play it safe. So you *don't* set records.
HoF has map re-rolls, Diety challenge has foreknowledge. (reloads of turn 0)
If even some of the people playing are using foreknowledge, it ruins it. How am I supposed to be learn anything, let alone be impressed when someone says "txxx victory" and they reloaded 50k times to get that result? It's useless, meaningless, and a waste of people's time.
At least with a single-session HOF game you know the person *only* got lucky. And you can tell exactly how lucky they got by examining the uploaded saves.
Yes, the best HOF results are often lucky starts. (except for the ones where people don't bother to play again on a new map for a better finish time)
But at least in HOF games there's less cheating.
Either way it's not ideal though. And multi-player is a joke. The only thing worse than simultaneous turns is waiting for your turn. Disconnects, having to reserve large blocks of time to play at the same time as others, etc. etc. I love MP in theory... hate it in reality.
Acken
Deity
I personally enjoy the deity challenges, GotM and HoF. My main issue with HoF is the time it consumes and the boredom that is rerolling.
Whether someone cheats or not I don't really care for it. There's no substantial reward to miss and I won't start limiting my own enjoyment by fear of someone cheating. A bit like how you should play dark souls pvp despite the potential cheats.
However what saddens me is that Firaxis doesn't capitalize on these ideas that exist since years ago in their own game. Making their own version of gotm inside the game using an ironman mode saved on steam cloud. Now that'd be cool.
Whether someone cheats or not I don't really care for it. There's no substantial reward to miss and I won't start limiting my own enjoyment by fear of someone cheating. A bit like how you should play dark souls pvp despite the potential cheats.
However what saddens me is that Firaxis doesn't capitalize on these ideas that exist since years ago in their own game. Making their own version of gotm inside the game using an ironman mode saved on steam cloud. Now that'd be cool.
They both have their place. It isn't cheating to know what is happening, and there is definitely skill involved either way.
