When to Build Money Buildings

beetle said:

^^ It is on Immortal that I am having gold problems. The first time is pretty early, but after first round of luxes. Delaying roads delays the crisis, but does not avoid it. I get in a real panic, and I find I have to delete one unit (gifts from CS first, but often workers) every turn to forestall the crash. So I am already doing the 5 things you list -- and still running into problems.

I have not much bullied CS, so that might help -- but it would be rare for me to have enough units for this when I first have the income problem.

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Those money problems in immortal are unusual. The only thing I can think of apart from the list above is to build roads at the RIGHT time, not too soon not too late. Rule of thumb, the number of road tiles at least equal to the size of the city is going to. Also, prebuild the roads but don't finish them until expo is the right size. By this I mean if building a road take 2-3 turns, do the first 1-2 turns and then on to next tile, that means free pre built road segment, so when it is the right time you can build fast.

Apart from that, I cannot think of other advice. In immortal AIs usually have plenty of gpt and cash. Maybe your terrain totally awful?

Bleidraner said:

Those money problems in immortal are unusual.

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I am sorry to hear that! I was hoping it wasn't just me.

The only thing I can think of apart from the list above is to build roads at the RIGHT time, not too soon not too late. Rule of thumb, the number of road tiles at least equal to the size of the city is going to.

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Thanks for that reminder. One early cash problem I had coming over from GnK to BNW was a habit of building roads relatively early. I am sparse with my workers, but was hooking up expos pretty quickly after settling, and I like 5+ hexes between cities. With GNK, those long roads to small cities was killing me. How exactly does a road make money for my empire?

Also, prebuild the roads but don't finish them until expo is the right size. By this I mean if building a road take 2-3 turns, do the first 1-2 turns and then on to next tile, that means free pre built road segment, so when it is the right time you can build fast.

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This is win-win for flat terrain. When going through hills/marsh/forest (and even over rivers) it can make the roads take much longer to build.

In immortal AIs usually have plenty of gpt and cash. Maybe your terrain totally awful?

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When I can start trading luxes for gpt, that usually marks the end of my first cash-flow crisis. When I wrote before that “The first time is pretty early, but after first round of luxes” -- I was referring to luxes I hook to keep my empire happy.

Maybe your terrain totally awful?

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Well, it happens most games, so I can't blame the dirt. I thank you for the dialog.

beetle said:

Thanks for that reminder. One early cash problem I had coming over from GnK to BNW was a habit of building roads relatively early. I am sparse with my workers, but was hooking up expos pretty quickly after settling, and I like 5+ hexes between cities. With GNK, those long roads to small cities was killing me. How exactly does a road make money for my empire?

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This War Academy article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=438745) should help. The article is from vanilla, but is still generally accurate -- in BNW, vanilla/G&K "trade routes" became "city connections" but the associated gold-bonus formula is still relevant.

Thanks Browd, that's a great article. One mistake I have been making with my casual play style is that I assumed city connections between expos also generated some gold. That is not the case. Only road/harbor connections between the capital and other cities count. In the past, my roads tended to built outside-in. Now that I know, I will take time to walk workers back to the capital.

beetle said:

Well, it happens most games, so I can't blame the dirt. I thank you for the dialog.

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I wish it was more useful. I used to have the same problem, and roads at the right time kind of solved it for me. I usually play Tradition and also open Commerce if I have a spare policy between Trad and Rati. Both help.

Now that I think about it, if you are having these problems for the first time before first luxury trades, that means between t1 and t40 more or less right? Are you trading your embassy for 1gpt to everybody? Because that helps and that kicks in really early in Immortal and Deity and can mean 5-6gpt, which at that stage is a pretty big deal. Also, if you are going into the negative that early, are you stealing too many workers?

I did not play GNK, only BNW, so just to be clear and have a common definition, when I say I have no money problems, it does not mean I am swimming in cash, during the mid game this means I can sustain the empire without any external trade routes, have a few gpt that slowly increases my treasure or that I can use to borrow cash in a pinch, but the real money to rush buy expensive stuff usually comes from lux/resource trades and/or peace deals. Big gold does not kick in for me until end game (post plastics). Some civs (Harum, etc) and terrain (Gold, Silver etc) change this and make you rich way earlier, but the above is the typical situation, for me at least.

Hope this helps.

Bleidraner said:

Now that I think about it, if you are having these problems for the first time before first luxury trades, that means between t1 and t40 more or less right?

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No, it more like t50-t100, so maybe I need to get more trades up? I know folks like to unlock Animal Husbandry so horses can be traded, and I try to follow that advise.

Are you trading your embassy for 1gpt to everybody?

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Hell no! That sounds like a really bad idea to me actually. Seems like that would be inviting a very early DOW. But 5-6 got is about all I need.

Also, if you are going into the negative that early, are you stealing too many workers?

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No, I am not really good at that, and I am sparse with units generally. As few as possible to beat off the early DOW.

I did not play GNK, only BNW, so just to be clear and have a common definition, when I say I have no money problems, it does not mean I am swimming in cash, during the mid game this means I can sustain the empire without any external trade routes, have a few gpt that slowly increases my treasure or that I can use to borrow cash in a pinch, but the real money to rush buy expensive stuff usually comes from lux/resource trades and/or peace deals. Big gold does not kick in for me until end game (post plastics). Some civs (Harum, etc) and terrain (Gold, Silver etc) change this and make you rich way earlier, but the above is the typical situation, for me at least.

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I was not swimming in cash either with GNK, but I think losing gold from rivers is what is really been the difference for me.

I had to reload my current game from early. Had to make a trade partner with Japan instead of early war. Lack of income just kills science. Its actually my third run at this particular map. Japan killed me early with my first try, so I was hoping to return the favor on my second try, but I was not really making much progress on that front.

I think its completely normal to be in negative GPT early on because the units and buildings you're constructing are quite worth it. Every scout, worker, or archer you have in the first 75 turns is extremely valuable, as they are able to meet CS for flat gold, find NW for global happiness, or do barb quest for CS influence and pillage gold, amounting to great benefits compared with the ~1GPT you pay for these units. I don't expect to be strong in GPT until after roads are up, unless I am fortunate enough to have a ton of resources.

beetle said:

No, it more like t50-t100, so maybe I need to get more trades up? I know folks like to unlock Animal Husbandry so horses can be traded, and I try to follow that advise.

Hell no! That sounds like a really bad idea to me actually. Seems like that would be inviting a very early DOW. But 5-6 got is about all I need.

I was not swimming in cash either with GNK, but I think losing gold from rivers is what is really been the difference for me.

I had to reload my current game from early. Had to make a trade partner with Japan instead of early war. Lack of income just kills science. Its actually my third run at this particular map. Japan killed me early with my first try, so I was hoping to return the favor on my second try, but I was not really making much progress on that front.

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AH is very important if you have money problems. 4 horses can be traded, 1 by 1, for 2 gpt each. That's a lot of gold.

Sell the embassy. It is safe. If an AI comes after you, they were going to do that anyway. If you are nervous, don't sell to Shaka, Mongolia, Attila. The rest are fine.

If you want, drop me your initial file for that game and I'll play the first 150 turns, may be able to give you more specific advice if there is something map specific and the map sounds interesting. Are you going for an specific victory condition?

Bleidraner said:

If you want, drop me your initial file for that game and I'll play the first 150 turns, may be able to give you more specific advice if there is something map specific and the map sounds interesting. Are you going for an specific victory condition?

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Thanks for the kind offer, I may take you up on the offer. Mostly I have been working through my money problems.

If you're having trouble with early gold its best to play tradition. Don't forget when you get Oligarchy to camp your units in your cities to save on gold maintenance. This is more important than you think.

Regarding Market I'm always confused on this one too. See if you have lots of nearby neighbors and have your luxuries connected and a market you can attract a lot of early caravans from other civs.

The amount of gold and breakers this will bring you is significant, much more than a library in many cases.
But you have to be close enough to an AI to get early caravans.
If your capital is too remote then at best find a riverside city with lots of luxury/strategic resources. But be careful if you're within 10 tiles of an AI capital it means you've forward settled on them and they could DoW on you.

If my capital has lots of stone/marble I usually try to get the Mausoleum. Usually I also dip into Piety for Theology so with a couple holy sites, a big capital with Monarchy and gold from stone makes it very attractive to build gold buildings.

A market in the capital early or a 8+ gold city is a decent idea. Late game I find myself cycling between happiness, money and troop building.

If you are forced to take freedom or god forbid you aren't a warmonger then its great to spam money buildings for happiness and money all in one.

brasaelal said:

My priorities are:

Production
then Food
then Science
then Gold
then Culture
then others

For example: If my building queue is University>Market>Opera House>Garden and then Workshop becomes available, I put the Workshop on the top of the queue, so I save a few turns on those same buildings.

Ah... In the early game I prioritize Shrine and Temple to get a chance of getting decent beliefs.

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I though the best way was:

Library, Granary
>Science
>Growth
>Gold and Production back and fourth
>Culture
>Military


Also, when building DEC, is the benefit national or local too?

It's important to keep in mind that gold and happiness are interchangeable to an extent. A Coliseum provides 2 happiness and costs 1 gpt. Two Coliseums provide 4 happiness and cost 2 gpt. That 4 happiness means you can sell one extra luxury resource. Usually you get 7 gpt for a luxury, but if you have rich friends that can be 8 gpt. Build two Coliseums and sell a luxury, and you're up 5-6 gpt. Therefore, each individual Coliseum is worth 2.5-3 gpt. More precisely, each Coliseum is worth the option to get 2.5-3 gpt OR 2 happiness, meaning that a Coliseum is really worth more than 2.5-3 gpt.

Translation: If you have Coliseums you can build, don't build Markets until they provide at least 3 gpt.