Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project

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Can someone on the team with more skills than I, please try to get the RoH Nomad camp converted for C2C?
Instead of just converting a specific unit we should have a proper plan how things interact in the nomadic times.

I suggest the following using the extended generic property system (which is ongoing development) and the outcome system:
There are a number of nomadic properties that you gather and hunt for and which you can then use in actions that upgrade your main band (giving it promotions), produce other units and generate beakers.
The nomadic properties are produced by plots and can be gathered by units. They are also the early outcomes from killing animals. Since both are limited and used up by gathering and hunting, you need to keep moving.
Outcome actions are extended to be able to use up these properties. Once you have promoted your main band several times and gathered enough of the right properties, you can use an outcome action to settle.

If we go that way, that needs to be done:
  • Finish the extended property system (that would be done by me)
  • Add new tags to the outcome system (missions that use up properties, outcomes that add properties, outcomes that target the nearest band instead of a city, ...)
  • Develop a concept which properties that could be and what are used for what and at what tech what should be doable
  • Adapt the early tech tree to being nomads and decide at what tech the first permanent settlements should be built
  • Write the unit, property and outcome XMLs
  • Write AI for that game phase

So what do you think?
 
@AIAndy

I assume you tried out the RoH Nomad? Its functions were ...

Nomad
- Move (Moves like normal scout units)
- Place Camp (Turns into Nomad Camp)

Nomad Camp (Works like a Mini-City and not a unit)
- Move (Turns back into Nomad)
- Build a Unit (Limited Choices)
- Build a Building (Limited Choices)
- Turn into Settlement (Turn into a normal City)

Note that the Nomadic Camp did not have a city screen. It would just ask you the 4 set of questions when it was done doing what it was doing.
 
Ok I was wrong, it could not make buildings i don't think. I also could not figure out how to turn the camp back into a unit. Here are screenshots from the game.
 

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If we go that way, that needs to be done:
  • Finish the extended property system (that would be done by me)
  • Add new tags to the outcome system (missions that use up properties, outcomes that add properties, outcomes that target the nearest band instead of a city, ...)
  • Develop a concept which properties that could be and what are used for what and at what tech what should be doable
  • Adapt the early tech tree to being nomads and decide at what tech the first permanent settlements should be built
  • Write the unit, property and outcome XMLs
  • Write AI for that game phase

This is how I see it working, you start with a Band of Homo Sapiens and normal starting units. However the Band of Home Sapiens are changed so they cannot move nor can they found a city. However your other starting units can move and explore or guard your band.

At Nomadic Lifestyle you can upgrade your Band of Homo Sapiens into a "Nomad". it can now move around to new and better spots on the map. At Cave Dwelling your nomad can fortify in cave terrain features that give more defense than open terrain. They can act like prehistoric forts.

At Shelter Building your Nomad can now become a Nomadic Camp just like in RoH. This can build units and buildings. After 5 turns without moving your camp can turn into a true City. Note that Nomadic Camps can turn back into Nomad units. Any building built in a nomadic camp is lost upon moving.

The city can also make more nomads, however these nomads cannot found cities until sedentary lifestyle. At Horseback Riding you can build Horse Nomads and at Camel Domestication you can make Camel nomads. They work the same as normal nomads but can move faster (speed of a horse or camel). Later on at Motorized Transportation you can build Biker Nomads which move even faster.

The nomads hunt the animal units and gather from the land. The gathering from the land would be a mode much like fortify. It would increase defenses and allow you to yield from the land. However gathering from the land would cause the land to loose yield over time. Thus encouraging you to move to a new spot.

How that sound so far?
 
@AIAndy

I assume you tried out the RoH Nomad? Its functions were ...

Nomad
- Move (Moves like normal scout units)
- Place Camp (Turns into Nomad Camp)

Nomad Camp (Works like a Mini-City and not a unit)
- Move (Turns back into Nomad)
- Build a Unit (Limited Choices)
- Build a Building (Limited Choices)
- Turn into Settlement (Turn into a normal City)

Note that the Nomadic Camp did not have a city screen. It would just ask you the 4 set of questions when it was done doing what it was doing.
I understand that but we are not limited to doing the exact same mechanic and whatever we do needs to be integrated into the game that C2C is.
So the first question is what do we want?
The second question is then how to implement the mechanics?

And that is what I made a suggestion for independent of what the RoH mod might do or not do.

EDIT: Just saw that you already answered that while I was writing this. :)
 
This is how I see it working, you start with a Band of Homo Sapiens and normal starting units. However the Band of Home Sapiens are changed so they cannot move nor can they found a city. However your other starting units can move and explore or guard your band.
From a realistic point of view: Nomadic Lifestyle is kind of ancient and predates Homo Sapiens. At least in regards to Hunter-Gathering with different amounts of mobility.
From a gameplay point of view: How is the band supposed to get beakers in that time? Aren't the game options kind of limited? What happens if you lose your starting units?

At Nomadic Lifestyle you can upgrade your Band of Homo Sapiens into a "Nomad". it can now move around to new and better spots on the map. At Cave Dwelling your nomad can fortify in cave terrain features that give more defense than open terrain. They can act like prehistoric forts.
Cave terrain features will be too rare to play much of a role. Besides, there are at least some caves in most terrains.

At Shelter Building your Nomad can now become a Nomadic Camp just like in RoH. This can build units and buildings. After 5 turns without moving your camp can turn into a true City. Note that Nomadic Camps can turn back into Nomad units. Any building built in a nomadic camp is lost upon moving.
5 turns is very little time in regards to C2C. And I'd expect nomads to be able to build units even before shelters. Maybe instead of this they should be able to build improvements that increase yield and protection when a nomad fortifies there. So you either keep fully mobile or build some of the shelter improvements and return regularly there (a semi mobile style).

The city can also make more nomads, however these nomads cannot found cities until sedentary lifestyle. At Horseback Riding you can build Horse Nomads and at Camel Domestication you can make Camel nomads. They work the same as normal nomads but can move faster (speed of a horse or camel). Later on at Motorized Transportation you can build Biker Nomads which move even faster.

The nomads hunt the animal units and gather from the land. The gathering from the land would be a mode much like fortify. It would increase defenses and allow you to yield from the land. However gathering from the land would cause the land to loose yield over time. Thus encouraging you to move to a new spot.
That is quite similar to what I suggested up there. What you gather from the land is represented by the nomadic properties and the plots produce a limited amount so you are better off moving around.
 
1a. They would go into the "foraging mode". Their other starter units could still find huts for free techs too.

1b. Same as if you lost your first city. Your game ends.

2. I know they are rare, that's why its a less important feature. Not all cultures were cave dwellers.

3. I was goingto make it 10 but i thought it was too long. I am open to change it back to 10 turns.

4. These last part is what ewe were already discussing both in the loss of yield and the unit upgrades. I was just restating them.

Inshort the band of homo sapiens, nomads and other nomad upgrades can all go into mode that utilizes the land. The band of homo sapiens and early nomads (pre-shelter building) would be able to get yeilds from the land but without as much protection and they could not make new units.

Its only the nomad camp that has better defense and can produce units (and buildings).
 
Inshort the band of homo sapiens, nomads and other nomad upgrades can all go into mode that utilizes the land. The band of homo sapiens and early nomads (pre-shelter building) would be able to get yeilds from the land but without as much protection and they could not make new units.

Its only the nomad camp that has better defense and can produce units (and buildings).
But if I get you correctly the nomad camp period ends pretty much instantly (5 turns).

Personally I think the chances are high that you die before you get there anyway with no way to protect from the animals but a very limited amount of initial units.
 
But if I get you correctly the nomad camp period ends pretty much instantly (5 turns).

Personally I think the chances are high that you die before you get there anyway with no way to protect from the animals but a very limited amount of initial units.

1. You would not be forced to become a city. You just would not have the option to for X number of turns.

2. The we could always give the band of homo sapiens a high attack vs animals. Since they cannot move or attack the only combat they would have would be from animals coming to them.
 
1. You would not be forced to become a city. You just would not have the option to for X number of turns.
The question would be why not to, given how important buildings are to get cities working in C2C. All those little trickles, the earlier the better.

2. The we could always give the band of homo sapiens a high attack vs animals. Since they cannot move or attack the only combat they would have would be from animals coming to them.
Ok, then they would not die to animals but what would be the point of this phase game play wise?

I would rather see nomadic start as an option (if you do not choose it, you get the start as it is now) but one that plays a dominant role in gameplay for at least half of the prehistoric time, probably more.
No cities, no buildings, no food, hammers or commerce. Instead you gather (yields fruit, stone tools, other material, insight into the wonders of the world through exploration) and hunt (yields meat, animal parts). You use those yields in abilities, which use up some of those yields to generate beakers, new units or promotions (e.g. to improve the gathering of the tribe). Instead of having growing cities, you can upgrade your main unit.
 
How about this then. We don't change the start of the game. You can still found 1 city with the band of homo sapiens. When you get Nomadic Lifestyle you can create Nomad units. These would act like pseudo cities until you can make tribe units.

Not to over shadow Tribe units the Nomad units cannot be turned into a city until Sedentary Lifestyle. The upgrade i said before would still apply such as a horse and camel nomad.

In short the nomad units would not replace the system we have in place now, only enhance it by allowing for you to work more area. To not completely unbalance things we could make the nomads a national unit and limit their number.

How about that? It would keep the existing system that has worked so far and just adds on to it rather than redoing it. Better?
 
How about this then. We don't change the start of the game. You can still found 1 city with the band of homo sapiens. When you get Nomadic Lifestyle you can create Nomad units. These would act like pseudo cities until you can make tribe units.

Not to over shadow Tribe units the Nomad units cannot be turned into a city until Sedentary Lifestyle. The upgrade i said before would still apply such as a horse and camel nomad.

In short the nomad units would not replace the system we have in place now, only enhance it by allowing for you to work more area. To not completely unbalance things we could make the nomads a national unit and limit their number.

How about that? It would keep the existing system that has worked so far and just adds on to it rather than redoing it. Better?
Personally I would prefer a full fledged nomad start (as an option and to avoid confusion I mean a game option that you set for all before you start the game) as it fits the actual times before around 10000BC far better than the cities we have now.
 
Personally I would prefer a full fledged nomad start (as an option and to avoid confusion I mean a game option that you set for all before you start the game) as it fits the actual times before around 10000BC far better than the cities we have now.

How would your nomad start work? What happens before discovering nomadic lifestyle?
 
You could let the band move at start but all the building you create in your nomadic camp are destroyed when you turn it in a unit again. When at nomadic lifestyle you could let certain building become promo on the nomad that would return to building when turn it to a camp again. ex: hide tents and herd if present in a camp when you turn it into a nomad become promo on the nomad and when you settle him in a camp again the promos spawn the buildings in the new camp. other non movable building would just be destroyed.
 
How would your nomad start work? What happens before discovering nomadic lifestyle?
Just let them start with it which is more realistic anyway as nomadic lifestyle is not really something that is new to Homo Sapiens or otherwise ignore it. Gameplay wise it is just not worth it to have a short phase with different behavior.
So your starting band is actually the main nomadic unit that grows and proliferates until it is time to settle.
 
Just let them start with it which is more realistic anyway as nomadic lifestyle is not really something that is new to Homo Sapiens or otherwise ignore it. Gameplay wise it is just not worth it to have a short phase with different behavior.
So your starting band is actually the main nomadic unit that grows and proliferates until it is time to settle.

That's more or less what I said before. except at Nomadic Lifestyle you could upgrade into a full nomad (now you can move).
 
I also support the Nomad start and would favor making it before v21. Could Koshling or AIAndy please take a look at the RoH nomad code and see what it would take to add it to C2C please?
 
I also support the Nomad start and would favor making it before v21. Could Koshling or AIAndy please take a look at the RoH nomad code and see what it would take to add it to C2C please?

Where would I find it's source code? Do you have a lnk?
 
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