Religion

Ahriman

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Lets start trying to differentiate religions:

Suggestions much appreciated for heroes and religious UUs.

You can only build a Temple of your state religion.
Temples cost considerably more than at present.
Temples of non-state religion are auto-razed when you conquer a city.
All non-state religions in your city add +2 unhappy faces. This makes inquisitors worth building and using. Spread of religion should be much slower, more difficult and more meaningful than at present. I hate how in FFH its too easy to get 3-4 religions anywhere, and have all the temples for all the different religions.
Discovering the techs Words of Salvation, Philosophy and Corruption of Chaos gives you a free missionary of the appropriate religion. This way, you can still get a religion even if you were beaten to the shrine.

Salvation:
Adoptable by: Empire, Brettonnia, Tilea, Estalia
Spread by: Shrine spreads religion, slowly. Missionaries spread religion, moderate price missionary (more expensive than present).
Temple benefit: +1 happiness, +2 influence, adds “Blessed” promotion to units built in the city; Blessed adds 20% strength, and wears off after combat.
UUs: Battlepriest, UU national limit 5. Strength 4, can use metal weapons, +50% vs demons, +50% death resistance, can case Cure Disease.
Hero:

Corruption (Chaos):
Adoptable by: Kurgan, Hung, Chaos Dwarf, Beasts of chaos, Ind.
Spread by: No spread from shrine or holy city. Spread by missionaries only. Chaos missionaries are invisible, and can enter enemy borders. Expensive missionaries. Very small chance per turn that a Chaos Temple auto spawns a missionary unit. Also; spreads by Chaos Cult event.
Temple benefit: +1 influence, 50% chance for any newly created unit to be affected as if by Mutate spell, +3 beakers. No Happiness bonus. Required to build all UU units.
UUs: Various chaos demons. Chaos furies: strength 4, functions as Fighter aircraft (bombing run, city bombard, intercept, bonus vs flying units).
Hero:

Spirituality:
Adoptable by: Araby, Ind, Cathay, Nippon.
Spread by: Shrine spreads religion, slowly. Missionaries spread religion, moderate price missionary (more expensive than present).
Temple benefit: +2 happy, +1 influence, +10% influence.
Strengths:
UUs:
Hero:

Old Ones:
Adoptable by:
Spread by:
Temple benefit:
UUs:
Hero:

Destruction:
Adoptable by: Orks, Gobs, HobGobs, Ogres.
Spread by: Current mechanic; auto-appears in new Greenskin cities, capturing a city applies Destruction religion and wipes out existing population.
Temple benefit: +1 happy, +1xp to units built in the city, +10% milprod. No influence bonus. (Greenskins should have to fight for territory, not gain it peacefully).
UUs: Ork magic should focus around temples of destruction; the WAAAGH! Spellcasters could require a temple of destruction (which you could rename as a WAAAGHH!! Banner or something).
Hero:

Elven gods:
Adoptable by: Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves.
Spread by: Expensive missionary only (its not easy to have non-elves worship the elven gods), autofounded in new elf cities.
Temple benefit: +1 happy, +1 food, +20% influence.
UUs:
Hero: (Not sure how to find a hero available to both high elves and dark elves - is there some elven character who fell from the light? So, depending on who builds him first, its before or after his fall.)

Ancestor gods:
Adoptable by: Dwarves.
Spread by: Autofounded in new dwarf cities. Expensive missionary to spread to other cities. No spread from shrine. (Hard to spread to compensate for no competition for getting the shrine).
Temple benefit: +2 gold, +10% city defense, +1 influence, +1 happy per faction currently at war with who have previously declared war on you.
[So you create a "grudge" variable with each enemy faction that starts =0 . When an enemy declares war on you, the grudge variable becomes =1. When you make a peace treaty, and grudge variables that =1 become =2. Grudges that =0 are unaffected.
When you are at war with a faction whose grudge with you =2, you get +1happy from all your Temple of Ancestors for each grudge=2 faction you are at war with.
Also, -2 diplomatic penalties for dwarves with all races they have a grudge with, to make grudge wars more likely]
UUs: Grudgethrower (replaces catapult). Strength 6/2. Requires Ancestor gods in city.
Hero:

Eternal life:
Adoptable by: Khemri, Lamia.
Spread by:
Temple benefit: +2 happy (who doesn’t want to live forever?), +1 influence, increases rate of new population spawning (if Khemri uses Scions of Patria population mechanics).
Strengths:
UUs:
Hero:

No religion: Sylvanians, Skaven.
 
great ideas again! im going to go through and post my own ideas on each religion based on what you said.

but first i should say that id love it if each civilization had a Unique temple, priest and inquisitor replacement for their favoured religion. ie the Empire gets a Temple of Sigmar rather than a Temple of Salvation which has additional benfits to the generic one.

Spoiler :

Religion: Salvation
Requirements:
• Adoptable by: Empire, Brettonnia, Tilea, Estalia, Kislev
• Tech: Words of Salvation
Founded by:
• Constructing the Shrine of Salvation, available at Words of Salvation tech.
Spread by:
• Shrine and temples spreads religion, slowly. Missionaries spread religion, moderate price missionary (more expensive than present).
Religious Unique Buildings:
• Building Name: Temple of Salvation (Generic)
• Requirements: Words of Salvation Tech, Salvation state religion
• Background: -------
• Effect: +1 happiness, +2 influence, adds “Blessed” promotion to units built in the city; “Blessed” adds 20% strength, and wears off after combat.
• Allows: Priest of Salvation; Inquisitor

• Building Name: Temple of Sigmar
• Requirements: Words of Salvation Tech, Salvation state religion, Civ = The Empire.
• Background: Though Sigmar was a mortal man, he was a being of such power and legend that he came to be worshipped by the people of the Empire that he forged. Now none who have witnessed the holy strength commanded by his priests could doubt his divinity; his very name is anathema to the minions of evil. Sigmar is the patron of his Empire, and only there is he acknowledged or worshipped. Within its boundaries, however, Sigmar is supreme, standing for honour, justice, the protection of the weak and the destruction of evil. His cult wields great political power as well as spiritual, and no Emperor has ever held office without the support of the Grand Theogonist of Sigmar.
• Effect: (additional to Generic Temple of Salvation effects) +1 influence, Units built have a chance of starting with ‘Favoured or Sigmar’ Promotion, granting +20% strength against daemons. +1 happy with Incense.
• Allows: Warrior-Priest of Sigmar UU; Witch Hunter (Inquisitor) UU; Magnus the Pious (Hero) UU

• Building Name: Temple of Grail
• Requirements: Words of Salvation Tech, Salvation state religion, Civ = Bretonnia.
• Background: The Lady of the Lake, the Bretonnian guardian-goddess, was worshipped alongside the other gods of the ancient Bretonni tribe as a mother-goddess who represented all that was right and good about the land. She is the queen of a race of earth-spirits whom the Bretonnians' ancestors believed to inhabit the forests, mists and lakes. In the Imperial year 977, the Lady of the Lake, as she had come to be known, manifested in person to Gilles le Breton, blessing him and his knights before the great victory over Greenskin invaders that would result in the founding of the Kingdom of Bretonnia. Since then the Lady has been the goddess of Bretonnian nobility, called on in the name of courage, honour and justice. She remains the only deity in the Known World whose worshippers claim appears in person to her most devout followers.
• Effect: (additional to Generic Temple of Salvation effects) +1 happy, may trigger ‘Quest for the Grail’ Chain events. +1 happy with Incense.
• Allows: Grail Knights UU; Battle Pilgrims (Inquisitor) UU; The Green Knight and/or The Fey Enchantress (Hero) UU.

• Building Name: Temple of Ursun
• Requirements: Words of Salvation Tech, Salvation state religion, Civ = Kislev.
• Background: Ursun is the Father of Bears and the patron god of Kislev. The ancient Gospodar held Bears as sacred creatures. He is, unsurprisingly, most usually depicted as a massive cave bear, with a crown, teeth and claws of glistening gold. It is said that Ursun can take human form, and will appear as a burly, bearded man with an age-worn face, with thick hairy arms and a great mop of hair, wearing nothing but a loincloth.
• Effect: (additional to Generic Temple of Salvation effects) +2 Exp to units built in the city, spawns Hidden nationality Bear units occasionally. +1 happy with Fur.
• Allows: Priest of Ursun UU; Berserker of Ursun (Inquisitor) UU; ??? (Hero) UU

• Building Name: Temple of Mercopio
• Requirements: Words of Salvation Tech, Salvation state religion, Civ = Tilea.
• Background: Mercopio, the god of Merchants, Prosperity and Trade, also know as Haendryk in the Empire, is a fairly popular god in the city state of Tobaro. This is due to the fact that Tobaro is so reliant on trade in order to stay the thriving city it is now. Mercopio's temple takes the form of a giant walled marketplace with goods from all over the Old World and beyond.
• Effect: (additional to Generic Temple of Salvation effects) +10% gold, +1 Trade route, +1 Happy from luxury goods.
• Allows: Priest of Mercopio UU; ??? (Inquisitor) UU; ??? (Hero) UU

• Building Name: Temple of Myrmidia
• Requirements: Words of Salvation Tech, Salvation state religion, Civ = Estalia.
• Background: Represented as a beautiful young woman clad in armour, Myrmidia is the Goddess of War, and her symbol is the spear and shield that she is most often depicted with. She is the patron of the art and science of battle, and is paid homage by many commanders and strategists as well as simple soldiers. Her worship is most popular in the south of the Old World, especially in Tilea and Estalia, although her followers can be found everywhere. There is some antipathy between cultists of Myrmidia and Ulric who view each other, mostly unfairly, as unnecessarily prim and reserved or as barbarous savages respectively. Fortunately this usually manifests as healthy competition on the battlefield rather than open hostility.
• Effect: (additional to Generic Temple of Salvation effects) +10% military unit Production, +1 Influence. +1 happy with Incense.
• Allows: Priests of Myrmidia UU; Knights of the Blazing Sun (Inquisitor) UU; Isabella Mauro (founder of Order of the Blazing Suns)(Hero) UU


there are still some blanks, aprticularly for the Tilean variety of the Salvation Temple and UUs, i think we will have a fair bit of creative lisence in that department.

what do you guys think of this?
 
I like the idea a lot, more differentiation is good, and the church is definitely likely to be different in the Empire vs in Kislev or Brettonia.

Maybe bump the generic influence down to +1; I don't think we want +3 influence buildings available early game. Influence is rare.
With all these benefits, temples will need to be quite expensive. This is good; it makes the spiritual trait more valuable (in FFH is it is valuable because you can be building 3-4 different temples in each city).

I'll come up with some stats for some of the units.

Its probably going to be more difficult though to differentiate some of the other religions, for which there is less fluff available. I guess you can differentiate Chaos by God (ie you can only build a Temple to one of the four gods in each city, but each chaos faction can probably build any of the four temples).

I would suggest against having separate religious heroes for each branch though. We don't want to overload on the heroes. Each leader should have 1-2 basic heroes, and then should "compete" for 1 religious hero with their coreligionists.
So many of these heroes we might want to make generic faction heroes, rather than being religion-specific.
 
Hi there, I've been lurking around watching the progress here and I hope you don't mind if I chime in on this topic.

While founding and spreading religions is a fundamental element of Civ, it doesn't strike me as a fundamental element of Warhammer. Every culture in Warhammer has its own religion and they don't really seem to work all that hard on spreading it. I mean, sure, the Empire is pretty gung-ho bout Sigmar, but it's not like they're making the Brets take up the Hammer.

So why not break away from the original Civ model of religion? Let's take the idea presented here - of the individual temples - one step further. Create 'generic' religion techs like, hrm. Heroism (Lady of the Lake, Sigmar, potentially Gork/Mork!), Ancient Lore (Old Ones, Non-Dark Elf faith), Pantheon (local Empire gods), Corruption (Chaos, Khaine/Dark elves, etc).

Each civ has a unique building that replaces 'temple' that requires the tech appropriate to that civ. Being FIRST to the tech gives you something special, like maybe your priests get +2 xp or something when built because your people have a more long-standing connection to their faith than others. Let's not worry about 'spreading' a religion and getting gold from it. It just doesn't seem to me that the Lady of the Lake is all about spreading her word and getting gold for her priests. Or Gork and Mork for that matter.

And let's have real priests. Enchantresses of the Lake for the Brets, who can provide the Blessing of the Lady (immunity to first strikes sounds like the best map of the blessing to me). Warrior Priests of Sigmar who are combatants with the medic promotions. Shaman for the greenskins, maybe Witch Elves for the Dark Elves? And let Chaos guys build a temple for whichever Demon Prince they particularly want in any given city (only one type in one city) and have their 'priest' be a weak demon type. Hounds of Khorne or Pink Horrors or something.

Essentially, temples would be a happiness-providing, influence-providing troop generator and being first to the religion tech would give you a bonus on that building type instead of the shrine/money angle. Can researching a tech be tied to giving you a trait? We could create the 'Faithful' leader trait that you get if you're first to the appropriate tech. And Faithful would give you 'build temples faster' and 'all disciple units gain +2 xp' or something. Basically, Spiritual without the anarchy prevention.
 
Hmm... interesting ideas.

I think there are several justifications for keeping religions as they are.

1. Avoids having to create a dozen or more different religions.
2. Diplomatic bonuses from having the same religion. Brettonnians and Estalians are much more likely to work together against the infidel Araby. Religious affiliation basically doubles as representing culture; some cultures are much closer than others.
3. Competition between co-reiigionists. The game is much more fun if there are rewards for getting something first . For religions, these are getting the holy city, shrine and some religion-specific heroes. The chaos factions should all be competing to attract the attention of (by building) the foremost chaos heroes.
4. AI. AI understands religion because of its presence in the core game.
5. Rewards diplomacy. Allies who let you have open borders so you can spread your religion gives you another way to increase your power peacefully. I agree though that it should be much more difficult to spread your religion into another civ's lands, particularly if that civ has a different state religion from you. This can be done by increasing missionary costs, slowing or eliminating Shrine/holy city spread of religions, and increasing missionary "fail-to-spread" chances.

Its possible to include some of your ideas without jettisoning the current religion setup; we can definitely have different temples and generic priest units for sub-religion factions (so Brets and Empire have different priests).
 
Cool ideas so far! I very much like improving the general Salvation religion with some nation/deity-specific twists. Scaramouche, I agree with your ideas but I think they actually fit in quite well with the template of having Salvation, Destruction, Spiritualism etc as the general over-arching religions, and adding on nation-specific temples and units for various gods like P_L has laid out. Making them nation-specific rather than tech-related would probably be most doable for implementation and coding, there's no reason why this couldn't lead to nation-specific spells & more. I do think we should make it somewhat less easy to spread religion in general, and very difficult to spread outside your borders if it isn't already; I actually haven't seen much inappropriate religion spread in the games I've played.

Here are a few ideas I had for spicing up the generic "missionary" units. There are currently loads of different ones (eg Priest, Guru, Monk, Hafith, Prophetess, Sage, Zealot etc etc) that are essentially all the same and get used only rarely, since spreading religions simply isn't a big focus. Maybe a few tweaks to these could make them more interesting/useful as early-game units while not adding lots of modding work.

Witch Hag (for Druchii with Elven Gods)
4:strength:+1 poison
eligible to earn Frenzied promotion
can use Wartatoos
can Spread Elven Gods

Cultist (for Corruption of Chaos)
3:strength:
Hidden
can enter enemy territory
can Spread Corruption
uses graphics for Spy or Zealot
This would make Chaos the only religion that can secretly spread its cult into enemy cities.. I also envision some Corruption-spreading events. Presence of Corruption in a non-Chaotic city would cause a particularly bad penalty (and put you at risk for further nasty events), making Inquisitors important.

Ascetic (for Spirituality, kind of a combined warrior monk/dervish idea)
4:strength:
Extra First Strike Chance
+20% Withdrawal Chance
can use Wartatoos
can Spread Spirituality
uses graphics for Buddhist Missionary
(it's currently not that urgent/necessary to make a whole separate unit/graphic just for Araby and Ind, though maybe some can be worked out later - this frees up graphics from Islamic, Taoist and Hindu Missionary as bases for embellishing the Wizard subtypes, which are in urgent need of flavor.)


That reminds me.. do you guys think there is scope for Cult of Khaine as a separate religion? I know there's still a relationship to the Elven Gods, but it is a pretty big religious difference and probably should not result in a diplo bonus, shared religion-specific heroes or much other common ground. (Plus, hearing Enya is definitely not quite what I associate with Malekith! ;))


edit: I like the idea of receiving a temporary Blessing from certain Shrines or Temples.. actually it should be doable to have the building bestow its blessing to any unit that passes through, not just those that are built there.
 
I actually haven't seen much inappropriate religion spread in the games I've played.

I find that in nearly every game there is mass spread of religions outside factions; the missionaries are insanely cheap, and so the AI spams them like crazy to anyone with open borders if it has the shrine.

edit: I like the idea of receiving a temporary Blessing from certain Shrines or Temples.. actually it should be doable to have the building bestow its blessing to any unit that passes through, not just those that are built there.

That was the idea; thats how such buildings function in FFH (like blessing from the Altar of Luonnotar, or Enchanted Weapon from the Dragon's Hoard).

I'm cool with flavor-based missionary units, but ask yourself this; if their main purpose is just to be sacrificed to spread religion (and this is certainly what the AI will do with them), is it worth adding lots of features to them and making them weak combat units? I would think some of these units would fit better as religion-specific UUs/priests, rather than missionaries.

Potential cool ability for the Empire Witch-hunter; if it captures an enemy city, it auto-spreads salvation.
 
I find that in nearly every game there is mass spread of religions outside factions; the missionaries are insanely cheap, and so the AI spams them like crazy to anyone with open borders if it has the shrine.
Then that definitely should be fixed.. I guess it's my fault for rarely opening borders outside my religion! Though I didn't seem to get spammed with Spirituality or Old Ones at all in a recent game where I did open borders as Empire with Wu & Mazdamundi.


I'm cool with flavor-based missionary units, but ask yourself this; if their main purpose is just to be sacrificed to spread religion (and this is certainly what the AI will do with them), is it worth adding lots of features to them and making them weak combat units? I would think some of these units would fit better as religion-specific UUs/priests, rather than missionaries.
Yeah, the point is to make them have some potential role as early-game units (FfH disciples but more useful) but still able to spread religion when its really called for. I'm thinking of setting the default AI script for these to something other than AI_MISSIONARY (though still leaving this in one possible script the AI can choose from), we'll see if that cuts down on excess prosyletization (sp?) but still lets them spread religion when really needed.
 
Here's a random question. Why do the greenskins and elves get their religions for free while the others have to research theirs? I would think that the Empire, Brets and others are as entrenched in their religion, lore-wise, as the greenskins are with good old Gork and Mork? But I'm not as lore-savvy as some, so I'm just wondering if I've got that wrong!
 
we'll see if that cuts down on excess prosyletization

I think the best way to cut down on religion spread is to make missionaries more expensive and to reduce or eliminate non-missionary religion spread.
I think it would be cool if if it was really valuable spreading religion, so that even within your own borders it won't be an instant gimme for all your cities to have your state religion.
With expensive missionaries, it becomes very hard to balance them to also have a role as combat units, or for the AI to build them intelligently if they have non-missionary AI scripts.

Why do the greenskins and elves get their religions for free while the others have to research theirs?

Its just part of the differences between factions.
Greenskins get their religion "free", but at the cost of butchering any city they capture down to population 1 once resisitance wears off, and having any of their own cities butchered down to size 1 when captured once resisitance wears off. Also, Greenskins have no missionary so can never peacefully spread their religion at all (for the purposes of increasing shrine income).

The aim should be to balance factions as a whole; they should have different strengths and weknesses.
 
Good lord! there is a lot of activity in here O_O

haha well ill strat from the top i guess...

Maybe bump the generic influence down to +1; I don't think we want +3 influence buildings available early game. Influence is rare.
With all these benefits, temples will need to be quite expensive. This is good; it makes the spiritual trait more valuable (in FFH is it is valuable because you can be building 3-4 different temples in each city).

Very true. i was just posting possible additional benefits. any other suggestions are more then welcome :)

Its probably going to be more difficult though to differentiate some of the other religions, for which there is less fluff available. I guess you can differentiate Chaos by God (ie you can only build a Temple to one of the four gods in each city, but each chaos faction can probably build any of the four temples).

i think each religion will be a completely different method of differentiation. like you say a lot of civs have little or no religion fluff. ie Chaos would probably only be differentiated by being able to build 4 diff kinds of temples (one for each god).

I would suggest against having separate religious heroes for each branch though. We don't want to overload on the heroes. Each leader should have 1-2 basic heroes, and then should "compete" for 1 religious hero with their coreligionists.

Once again, true. but the problem here is: what hero can be used to span all 5 salvation civs and stay flavourful? the brettonians dont give a ratts arse about sigmar, and the empire laughs at the green knight and fey enchantress... i was thinking linking the UU religious heroes to the one world limit, so if the Empire builds Magnus the pious, the brettonians cannot build the green knight... a lot of coding and work would be involved (probably more than is worth it seeing as most heroes would not show up in any given game)
Religious heroes are a tricky one in WH...

Hi there, I've been lurking around watching the progress here and I hope you don't mind if I chime in on this topic.

While founding and spreading religions is a fundamental element of Civ, it doesn't strike me as a fundamental element of Warhammer. Every culture in Warhammer has its own religion and they don't really seem to work all that hard on spreading it. I mean, sure, the Empire is pretty gung-ho bout Sigmar, but it's not like they're making the Brets take up the Hammer.

So why not break away from the original Civ model of religion? Let's take the idea presented here - of the individual temples - one step further. Create 'generic' religion techs like, hrm. Heroism (Lady of the Lake, Sigmar, potentially Gork/Mork!), Ancient Lore (Old Ones, Non-Dark Elf faith), Pantheon (local Empire gods), Corruption (Chaos, Khaine/Dark elves, etc).

Each civ has a unique building that replaces 'temple' that requires the tech appropriate to that civ. Being FIRST to the tech gives you something special, like maybe your priests get +2 xp or something when built because your people have a more long-standing connection to their faith than others. Let's not worry about 'spreading' a religion and getting gold from it. It just doesn't seem to me that the Lady of the Lake is all about spreading her word and getting gold for her priests. Or Gork and Mork for that matter.

And let's have real priests. Enchantresses of the Lake for the Brets, who can provide the Blessing of the Lady (immunity to first strikes sounds like the best map of the blessing to me). Warrior Priests of Sigmar who are combatants with the medic promotions. Shaman for the greenskins, maybe Witch Elves for the Dark Elves? And let Chaos guys build a temple for whichever Demon Prince they particularly want in any given city (only one type in one city) and have their 'priest' be a weak demon type. Hounds of Khorne or Pink Horrors or something.

Essentially, temples would be a happiness-providing, influence-providing troop generator and being first to the religion tech would give you a bonus on that building type instead of the shrine/money angle. Can researching a tech be tied to giving you a trait? We could create the 'Faithful' leader trait that you get if you're first to the appropriate tech. And Faithful would give you 'build temples faster' and 'all disciple units gain +2 xp' or something. Basically, Spiritual without the anarchy prevention.

hey scaramouche, :) welcome to WH :) i think Ahriman and Orlanth reasoned it quite well. the idea of civ specific temples and UUs would be pretty much the same as what you suggest, but the AI would handle it better, and it wouldnt clutter the tech tree as much.

though i agree with you 150% onthe REAL preists, with civ specific divine magic! WHEEEEEEEEE (in case you havent noticed, i love magic and the possibilities :p)

I'm cool with flavor-based missionary units, but ask yourself this; if their main purpose is just to be sacrificed to spread religion (and this is certainly what the AI will do with them), is it worth adding lots of features to them and making them weak combat units? I would think some of these units would fit better as religion-specific UUs/priests, rather than missionaries.

i was considering making all priests able to spread religion like the night watch in FfH Esus religion (ie they dont die), and all inquisitors auto spread their religion to any city they capture. (your witch hunter idea:p) though that last could be awsome as a special effect for only some inquisitor units.

Why do the greenskins and elves get their religions for free while the others have to research theirs?

Because their religions are 2 of the most ingrained in their society, and we cannot really point to a particular stage in their development where they first began worshipping their gods. Plus it adds some awsome differentiation amongst the religions :p


------------------


Ill post more ideas once i finish my damned Essay :(
 
Once again, true. but the problem here is: what hero can be used to span all 5 salvation civs and stay flavourful? the brettonians dont give a ratts arse about sigmar, and the empire laughs at the green knight and fey enchantress... i was thinking linking the UU religious heroes to the one world limit, so if the Empire builds Magnus the pious, the brettonians cannot build the green knight... a lot of coding and work would be involved (probably more than is worth it seeing as most heroes would not show up in any given game)
Religious heroes are a tricky one in WH...

An excellent point. I like the solution of differentiating religious heroes as needed, but still only having a single religious hero "slot" for each religion.
Possibly also, make it a one at a time; so if Brettonnia builds the Green Knight then the Empire can't build Magnus until he dies. This could be confusing for players though.
Other religions can probably share a single hero - some chaos priest guy for eg, and/or a world unit greater demon (Bloodthirster using Hyborem sprite?).

i was considering making all priests able to spread religion like the night watch in FfH Esus religion (ie they dont die), and all inquisitors auto spread their religion to any city they capture. (your witch hunter idea) though that last could be awsome as a special effect for only some inquisitor units.

I'd recommend against this, unless it was insanely expensive (~200 gold to spread religion). I'd like to make religion much more meaningful. In vanilla civ and FFH, you see all the religions spread all over the place, because its so easy to do so, and many/most cities have 3-4 religions.
I would like managing to spread your religion to other cities even within your own empire to feel like an achievement, and to make it well worth investing in inquisitions to remove enemy religions from cities once you capture them. A happiness penalty for non-state religions, and maybe also a hammer penalty (or a milprod penalty, -15% milprod for non-state religions).

Problem with this is that inquisitors are lategame.
Possibly you could have 2 forms of inquisition. A "promotion" inquisition that is available from Priesthood, available on missionary and priest units, that lets you sacrifice the unit to perform an inquisition.
And then late game inquisitors that are able to case inquisition without dying, but the spell takes ~5 turns to cast.

Problem is, not clear if the AI will be able to figure out how to do inquisition well.

Create an expensive ritual that purges all non-state religion from your civ?
 
An excellent point. I like the solution of differentiating religious heroes as needed, but still only having a single religious hero "slot" for each religion.
Possibly also, make it a one at a time; so if Brettonnia builds the Green Knight then the Empire can't build Magnus until he dies. This could be confusing for players though.

The ability to make the religion hero could potentially be the benefit of being the first to the appropriate tech? Though this creates a potentially significant delay between getting the religion tech and finally building the guy. But it's a thought.


I'd like to make religion much more meaningful. In vanilla civ and FFH, you see all the religions spread all over the place, because its so easy to do so, and many/most cities have 3-4 religions.
I would like managing to spread your religion to other cities even within your own empire to feel like an achievement, and to make it well worth investing in inquisitions to remove enemy religions from cities once you capture them. A happiness penalty for non-state religions, and maybe also a hammer penalty (or a milprod penalty, -15% milprod for non-state religions).

I think making it difficult to spread religion outside your cultural borders is ideal. But I'm not sure I like the idea that spreading your own state religion is difficult inside your borders. It's not like convincing your own guys to worship Sigmar is hard, as the Empire. Hrm, but you're talking about cities you've conquered, perhaps, and that would be a different thing. Does the game keep track of the difference between cities you have founded and cities that you've conquered? I think, in an ideal world, spreading your own religion to cities you've built should be quite easy - perhaps even trivial. But spreading to cities you've conquered should be quite difficult and it should be very expensive outside your cultural borders.

It seems to me that Inquisitors are in the game primarily as an anti-Chaos tactic. That strikes me as the flavor angle and also the in-game angle (if we go with this idea of Chaos spreading stealthily and secretly which was mentioned I think).

Create an expensive ritual that purges all non-state religion from your civ?

Isn't that what Witch-hunt does? Or am I misremembering?
 
Are world projects unique? That is, if I finish a project can anyone else do it? If not, that might be an easy way to do religion heroes. If it is your state religion and you achieve the proper techs, you can undertake the 'The Chosen One' project (or whatever) and upon completion you get the civ-appropriate hero. And no one else can do that project, so you're covered.
 
An excellent point. I like the solution of differentiating religious heroes as needed, but still only having a single religious hero "slot" for each religion.
Possibly also, make it a one at a time; so if Brettonnia builds the Green Knight then the Empire can't build Magnus until he dies. This could be confusing for players though.
Other religions can probably share a single hero - some chaos priest guy for eg, and/or a world unit greater demon (Bloodthirster using Hyborem sprite?).

i think i know how we can make civ religion specific heroes work. should be a simple matter of making a general 'Chosen of Salvation' Unit (with no actual statistics or ability), and then each civ getting a UU replacement for that unit (with statistics and cool abilities). thus if the empire builds the 'chosen of salvation' they get magnus the pious, but if bretonnia builds the 'chosen of salvation' they get the green knight or fey enchantress. but once one choseon of salvation is built, no other salvation civs can build theirs. perhaps a cool world ritual could be the ability to build your religious hero regardless of if anothe civ has already built it. ie brettoina had the Fey Enchantress runnign around but the empire completes "prophesy of the Chosen One" and so then they can build Magnus even though the brets built the enchantress... what a long sentence...

I'd recommend against this, unless it was insanely expensive (~200 gold to spread religion). I'd like to make religion much more meaningful. In vanilla civ and FFH, you see all the religions spread all over the place, because its so easy to do so, and many/most cities have 3-4 religions.
I would like managing to spread your religion to other cities even within your own empire to feel like an achievement, and to make it well worth investing in inquisitions to remove enemy religions from cities once you capture them. A happiness penalty for non-state religions, and maybe also a hammer penalty (or a milprod penalty, -15% milprod for non-state religions).

fair enough... but i think the missionarys that spread religion should be generalised. there is no point in making them flavourful for 5 civs if they do the same thing.
im not overly sure about making religion spread in cities you build difficult, but in cities you capture definately.

I think making it difficult to spread religion outside your cultural borders is ideal. But I'm not sure I like the idea that spreading your own state religion is difficult inside your borders. It's not like convincing your own guys to worship Sigmar is hard, as the Empire. Hrm, but you're talking about cities you've conquered, perhaps, and that would be a different thing. Does the game keep track of the difference between cities you have founded and cities that you've conquered? I think, in an ideal world, spreading your own religion to cities you've built should be quite easy - perhaps even trivial. But spreading to cities you've conquered should be quite difficult and it should be very expensive outside your cultural borders.

the game keeps track on the cities dominant cultural influence. so if your the empire and capture a greenskin city, it could have something like 15% Empire 75% Orc. and depending on the ratio of the culture to your civ the success of spreading the religion could change?
 
here are some basic religious hero units for Salvation

Spoiler :

Religious Unique Unit:
• Unit Name: Magnus the Pious (Empire Hero)
• Requirements: Empire civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 1 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on horse model, 2 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on horse model, joined a unit of warrior priests, 2 movement, 6 physical and 2 holy strength.
• Unique items:
o ‘Shroud of Magnus’: Unit is immune to dark, chaos and skaven magic, and immune to death and unholy damage.
• Other Bonuses:
o can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing himself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o may trigger events that recruit random units for 1 population point when he is stationed in a city and at war with someone. (units gained this way have no upkeep and can re join cities to increase population again)
o Warrior Priests bonuses (only applicable for 3rd Era)
o +25% magic Resistance,
o can cast all 4 Prayers of Sigmar spells (I will write them up later)
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)

• Unit Name: Morgiana, The Fey Enchantress (Brettonia Hero)
• Requirements: Bretonnia civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background: tis believed that through the centuries there have been many Enchantresses, and she has certainly gone by many different names. The current Fay Enchantress is known as Morgiana. Some believe that the Fay Enchantress has lived through all the ages of Bretonnia, making her thousands of years old. Others speculate that when each Fay Enchantress passes from the world she is instantly reincarnated so that she can continue her sacred duty.
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: Mounted on Horse model, 2 movement, 1 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on Unicorne model, 2 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on Alicorne model, 3 movement, 6 physical and 2 holy strength.
• Unique items:
o ‘Chalice of the Lady’: Acts as an ‘Immortal’ promotion.
• Other Bonuses:
o Double movement in forests, water walking
o Unit Unique Spell: Call Lightning: strikes a random enemy stack with powerful electrical damage
o Can cast all ‘Blessings of the Lady’ spells (Bretonnian Magic, i have yet to write up)
o If stationed in a city may trigger an event which grants a free ‘Damsel of the Lady’ unit with 10 free Exp.
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)

• Unit Name: Ylia Morumets (Kislev Hero)
• Requirements: Kislev civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background: Ylia Morumets was a mighty warrior, the main hero of ancient Kislev legends. Defender of Kislevite Land, of all the poor, the weak and unjustly offended. Ylia has fought many chaotic beasts in his time, such as Robber Nightingale, a giant warped and mutated bird who’s screech ruptured veins and caused tremendous pain.
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on Horse model, 2 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on Bear model, 2 movement, 6 .
• Unique items:
o ‘Nightingale Harp’ (?): can cast ‘Screech of the Nightingale’ damages all units (friend and foe, but not the caster) within 2 squares severely, has a small chance of summoning 0-3 ‘Murder of Crows’ Units as per the Ghur spell.
• Other Bonuses:
o +40% strength vs Daemons
o ‘Defender’ and ‘Guardsman’ Promotions.
o Auto cast ‘Hope’ in cities he occupies.

• Unit Name: Isabella Mauro (Estalian Hero)
• Requirements: Estalian civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 2 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on horse model, 2 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on horse model, 2 movement, 10 strength
• Unique items:
o ‘Sword of Myrmidia’: +2 Holy Damage, +20% city attack.
• Other Bonuses:
o Can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing herself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o Capturing a city has a chance of spawning a free ‘Knights of the Blazing Sun’ unit
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)



i cant think of anything decent for a Tilean hero based around the merchant god, im tempted to change the tilean one to Verena, goddess of justice scholarship and give them a mage/priest hero...
 
Looks good.
What are the techs that determine eras?
Maybe each hero should have a specific (maybe different?) tech that allows it to upgrade to the next level - much like the Alexis hero does in the Scions of Patria mod.

Another thing for inquisition; inquisition should reduce city population by 1, and should cause war if you cast it in another civ's cities.
 
Maybe each hero should have a specific (maybe different?) tech that allows it to upgrade to the next level - much like the Alexis hero does in the Scions of Patria mod.

thats the plan :)

Another thing for inquisition; inquisition should reduce city population by 1, and should cause war if you cast it in another civ's cities.

agreed :D

EDIT: heres an idea for a Tilean Religious hero:

• Unit Name: Saint Vae (Tilean Hero)
• Requirements: Tilean civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’)
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 1 strength. Channeling 1.
o -Era 2: On foot model, 1 movement, 2 strength. Channeling 1 and 2
o -Era 3: On foot model, 1 movement, 4 strength. Channeling 1,2, and 3
• Unique items:
o ‘Scrolls of Verena’: Can be added to a city as a building, Adds +50% research if you do so. If on a unit, +10% spell strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o Immune to disease, plague, poison damage.
o Can cast a spell to remove the black plague from a city (plagues as per Rhyes and Fall of Civ to be implemented)
o Medic 1, 2 and 3.
o Automatically cures all disease and plague on units in her stack.
o May cast Aura of Healing. (use Crown of Brilliance mechanic but make it heal all units adjacent to the unit)
o Starts with ‘Hysh 1’ and ‘Azyr 1’ promotions (may cast light and celestial magics) can only learn Hysh and Azyr magic.
 
A suggestion; for era 1 and maybe 2 heroes, which are clearly designed in general to be non-combat support units (strength 2 and all....), why not give them the Cannot Attack feature, so that they AI doesn't decide to throw them away doing something stupid?
 
my finished religious UU list for salvation. ideas? thoughts?

Spoiler :

Religious Unique Unit:
Empire
• Unit Name: Magnus the Pious (Empire Hero)
• Requirements: Empire civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on horse model, 2 movement, 6 strength 1 holy strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on horse model, joined a unit of warrior priests, 2 movement, 8 physical and 2 holy strength.
• Unique items:
o ‘Shroud of Magnus’: Unit is immune to dark, chaos and skaven magic, and immune to death and unholy damage.
• Other Bonuses:
o can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing himself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o may trigger events that recruit random units for 1 population point when he is stationed in a city and at war with someone. (units gained this way have no upkeep and can re join cities to increase population again)
o Warrior Priests bonuses (only applicable for 3rd Era)
 +25% magic Resistance,
 can cast all 4 Prayers of Sigmar spells (I will write them up later)
 Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)

• Unit Name: Warrior Priest of Sigmar (Salvation priest UU)
• Requirements: Empire civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 5 strength, 2 holy strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o +25% magic Resistance,
o can cast all 4 Prayers of Sigmar spells (I will write them up later)
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)

• Unit Name: Witch Hunter (Inquisitor UU)
• Requirements: Empire civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 7 strength, 2 holy strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing himself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)
o +40% vs. Daemons





Bretonnia
• Unit Name: Morgiana, The Fey Enchantress (Brettonia Hero)
• Requirements: Bretonnia civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background: tis believed that through the centuries there have been many Enchantresses, and she has certainly gone by many different names. The current Fay Enchantress is known as Morgiana. Some believe that the Fay Enchantress has lived through all the ages of Bretonnia, making her thousands of years old. Others speculate that when each Fay Enchantress passes from the world she is instantly reincarnated so that she can continue her sacred duty.
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: Mounted on Horse model, 2 movement, 2 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on Unicorne model, 2 movement, 4 strength 1 lightning strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on Alicorne model, 3 movement, 6 physical and 2 lightning strength.
• Unique items:
o ‘Chalice of the Lady’: Acts as an ‘Immortal’ promotion.
• Other Bonuses:
o Double movement in forests, water walking
o Unit Unique Spell: Call Lightning: strikes a random enemy stack with powerful electrical damage
o Can cast all ‘Blessings of the Lady’ spells (Bretonnian Magic, i have yet to write up)
o If stationed in a city may trigger an event which grants a free ‘Damsel of the Lady’ unit with 10 free Exp.
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)

• Unit Name: Grail Knight (Salvation priest UU)
• Requirements: Bretonnian civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Upgrade from a level 4 Questing Knight only.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 2 movement, 8 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o Benefits from and triggers Grail Quest chain events,
o Flanking bonus vs Melee, Daemons and Siege.
o ‘Awe’ promotion. Allied units in stack get +10% strength.
o Unit fortifies twice as fast and always has a base of 20% fortification bonus?

• Unit Name: Battle Pilgrims (Inquisitor UU)
• Requirements: Bretonnian civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 7 strength, 2 first strike, 10% withdrawl chance.
• Other Bonuses:
o can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing himself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)
o If a Grail Knight dies in a stack with a ‘Battle Pilgrims’ unit, the pilgrims get half the grail knights experience (similar to spirit guide but limited to these 2 units)




Kislev
• Unit Name: Ylia Morumets (Kislev Hero)
• Requirements: Kislev civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background: Ylia Morumets was a mighty warrior, the main hero of ancient Kislev legends. Defender of Kislevite Land, of all the poor, the weak and unjustly offended. Ylia has fought many chaotic beasts in his time, such as Robber Nightingale, a giant warped and mutated bird who’s screech ruptured veins and caused tremendous pain.
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on Horse model, 2 movement, 7 strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on Bear model, 2 movement, 11
• Unique items:
o ‘Nightingale Harp’ (?): can cast ‘Screech of the Nightingale’ damages all units (friend and foe, but not the caster) within 2 squares severely, has a small chance of summoning 0-3 ‘Murder of Crows’ Units as per the Ghur spell.
• Other Bonuses:
o +40% strength vs Daemons
o ‘Defender’ and ‘Guardsman’ Promotions.
o Auto cast ‘Hope’ in cities he occupies.

• Unit Name: Priest of Ursun (Salvation priest UU)
• Requirements: Kislev civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Upgrade from a level 4 Questing Knight only.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 5 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o May cast ‘Heal’, ‘Cure Disease’, ‘Roar of the Bear’ (adjacent enemies are ‘pushed’ one square from the caster, may be resisted) ‘Bear Spirit’ (adds Spirit of the Bear to the unit, +15% strength to units in the casters stack. If a unit with ‘Spirit of the Bear’ promotion dies, 50% chance of being turned into a bear instead of dying. Does not affect animals.)

• Unit Name: Berserker of Ursun (Inquisitor UU)
• Requirements: Kislev civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 2 movement, 9 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing himself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)
o Blitz promotion
o +20% city attack strength.







Tilea
• Unit Name: Saint Vae (Tilean Hero)
• Requirements: Tilean civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’)
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 1 strength. Channeling 1.
o -Era 2: On foot model, 1 movement, 2 strength. Channeling 1 and 2
o -Era 3: On foot model, 1 movement, 4 strength. Channeling 1,2, and 3
• Unique items:
o ‘Scrolls of Verena’: Can be added to a city as a building, Adds +50% research if you do so. If on a unit, +10% spell strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o Immune to disease, plague, poison damage.
o Can cast a spell to remove the black plague from a city (plagues as per Rhyes and Fall of Civ to be implemented)
o Medic 1, 2 and 3.
o Automatically cures all disease and plague on units in her stack.
o May cast Aura of Healing. (use Crown of Brilliance mechanic but make it heal all units adjacent to the unit)
o Starts with ‘Hysh 1’ and ‘Azyr 1’ promotions (may cast light and celestial magics) can only learn Hysh and Azyr magic.

• Unit Name: Priest of Verena (Salvation priest UU)
• Requirements: Tilea civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Upgrade from a level 4 Questing Knight only.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 5 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o May cast ‘Heal’, ‘Cure Disease’, ‘Inspiration’ (as per FfH), ‘Judgement’, (adds a building to cities occupied which reduces War weariness and provides influence.)

• Unit Name: Magistrate of Verena (Inquisitor UU)
• Requirements: Tilea civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple/ arcane
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 7 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o Can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing himself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o May cast ‘Unyielding Order’ (as per FfH)
o May be sacrificed to build a courthouse in the city
o Able to promote to channelling and learn winds of magic like an arcane unit.







Estalia
• Unit Name: Isabella Mauro (Estalian Hero)
• Requirements: Estalian civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Salvation Religion hero slot open.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Hero (UU replacement for ‘Chosen of Salvation’
• Statistics:
o -Era 1: On foot model, 1 movement, 2 strength.
o -Era 2: Mounted on horse model, 2 movement, 4 strength.
o -Era 3: Mounted on horse model, 2 movement, 10 strength
• Unique items:
o ‘Sword of Myrmidia’: +2 Holy Damage, +20% city attack.
• Other Bonuses:
o Can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing herself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o Capturing a city has a chance of spawning a free ‘Knights of the Blazing Sun’ unit
o Righteous Fury promotion (‘Hatred’ of all Chaos, Undead and skaven units)

• Unit Name: Priest of Myrmidia (Salvation priest UU)
• Requirements: Estalia civilisation, Salvation state Religion, Upgrade from a level 4 Questing Knight only.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple
• Statistics:
o 1 movement, 5 strength.
• Other Bonuses:
o May cast ‘Heal’, ‘Cure Disease’, ‘Inspiration’ (as per FfH), ‘Judgement’, (adds a building to cities occupied which reduces War weariness and provides influence.)

• Unit Name: Knights of the Blazing Sun (Inquisitor UU)
• Requirements: Estalia civilisation, Salvation state Religion.
• Background:
• Unit Class: Disciple/ Mounted
• Statistics:
o 2 movement, 7 strength +2 Holy.
• Other Bonuses:
o Can Inquisition unwanted religions without sacrificing himself. Cities captured are automatically inquisitioned and converted to salvation.
o +20% city attack
o May cast ‘Blinding Light’

 
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