AND SVN Build Thread

Rev611 - small update

- Updated quick gamespeed to better reflect timings in tech discovery in comparison to real history
- Removed a redundant requirement in currency tech
- Revision number is now visible hovering your mouse over the flag of your empire near the minimap
 
I've been using this CIV4TraitInfos.xml for a few months now. There are just a couple of simple changes involved; incorporate it if u want to. They're really just balance changes that I feel are necessary.
Industrious 35% wonders down from 50%
Spiritual max 1 turn anarchy instead of 0.
Aggressive +15% great generals
Deceiver 3 :espionage: per city instead of 2.
Creative 4 :culture: per city up from 2.
Humanitarian -25% upkeep instead of -20%
Seafaring +1 :health:
Imperialistic +85% great generals instead of 100%
Protective free trench promotion on GUN units but no free drill on high tech.
 

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45°38'N-13°47'E;12207049 said:
Rev611 - small update

- Updated quick gamespeed to better reflect timings in tech discovery in comparison to real history
- Removed a redundant requirement in currency tech
- Revision number is now visible hovering your mouse over the flag of your empire near the minimap

Was hoping that would someday be available! Thanks 45*. :)

JosEPh
 
Was hoping that would someday be available! Thanks 45*. :)

JosEPh

Don't get too excited, unfortunately it's not an automatic process. :lol: I've simply found the file where the version number is stored (CvModName.py) and edited it manually. ;) We'll simply have to remember to do it when we do an update on SVN.
 
Some comments on the last few SVNs, say around 605 to 611 with multiple games played and various issues that have come up. This will be somewhat stream of conciousness and out of order as I've made notes or taken screenshots of useful items when they've shown up as things I wanted to mention. So then...

1. Buildings -- ice house, hotel and igloo - can't build due to lattitude restrictions, same with the Snow Castle of Kemi (sp?) WW as you can see below.

Civ4ScreenShot0164.JPG

<iMinLatitude>50</iMinLatitude> -- this appears to be in error, changed to '0' and all buildings appear to work fine

2. siam ho trai - library replacement - research bonus too strong - currently 40%, reduce to 30% at least - Siam is almost always tech leader when present in the game I've found, the new and far worse mansa musa it would seem. I wouldn't even play with them in my games without this edit present.

3. Early game non-animal barbs are AWOL for the most part. Even with raging barbs on, virtually no attacks. You'll get the occasional unit or two, and in my last game I got 3 at once wow. Yeah, no where near what 'raging barbs' can do in the default game. Instead they seem to settle into barb cities way earlier than usual which is rather annoying I must say. This is a change in the SVN as I played the old AND beta2 and they were fine as I recall. So something has changed in the SVN, not sure what was done to cause this.

4. Early game scouts too weak - animals too strong take your pick. When you have polar bears with strength 4 spawning 15 turns into the game your early scouts are just so much raw meat. A useful tweak I've made for my copy is to up scouts to 2 str with 50% vs animals. They survive much more often unless you're careless with where you end your turns all the time. You'll lose some but it makes early game exploration less frustrating.

5. fresh water health bonus too small - this used to be +3 in base i think, now it's +1 which is meh. With all the extra pollution causing "things" in the game you'll be seeing green smoke all the time past the classical era which is again annoying for me. A quick fix I've made that semi-solves it is to up the fresh water bonus to +5, makes settling there much more attractive and pushes back the pain a bit. The root cause is lots of sick faces which should be brought back down I'd say.

6. 1st ring city culture too strong - can't overcome or flip cities - I assume this is Fixed Borders doing this given what I've read in the Civopedia on it. What a terrible idea, it basically makes culture wars and fighting over tiles and trying to flip cities peacefully via strong culture pointless and impossible. Way to ruin a well done mechanic from the base game whoever came up with this. I've NEVER seen a city flip or even be in remote danger from culture with that setting on in all the games I've played with this mod. Just awful. What is in these screenshots below should never ever happen in my view, this city should have flipped looong ago.

Civ4ScreenShot0151.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0152.jpg

I see there is an option in the latest SVNs to turn off any use of Fixed Borders, that will solve this issue and make culture wars possible again, yes?

7. weirdness with natural culture spread - hills, rivers, enemy culture --> see pic below:

Civ4ScreenShot0155.jpg

Why is that hill with all the French riflemen on it still under French control? I have 63% vs 36% culture on that tile, it should be mine unless I'm not understanding something about RCS.

8. great general experience gain way too slow with fractional xp rewards from combat - with the current settings I only got 3 or 4 GGs in the course of a game when I had major wars going on all over the place. I know GGs are powerful but presently they are too rare for my taste. Here are the settings I use, use / not use / tweak to your liking but it's what I'll be using going forward.

GlobalDefines.xml

<DefineName>GREAT_GENERALS_THRESHOLD_INCREASE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>19</iDefineIntVal>
<DefineName>GREAT_GENERALS_THRESHOLD</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>15</iDefineIntVal>

9. Corporations 1: national units - corporation spreaders - build limit too small at 5 - up to at least 10 or more - long travel times make spreading annoying. Recommend you make them all unlimited like the religious missionaries.

10. Corporations 2: why only founding city for corporations can spread it? too tedious to manage, recommend removal of corporate HQ building in requirement for building spreader units. I can think of no good reason for this requirement aside from a hard nerf of all corps as someone didn't like them, I'll be removing it on all my SVN copies if it isn't done "officially" as it makes using corps a huge timesink and micro task just to annoy the player as far as I can see.

11. Corporations 3: message spam with realistic corporation spread on - this has to do with the log window and end of turn notifications - if you use that setting you'll get spammed to death with messages every single turn about this corporation spreading here, no longer doing business here, needs this resource here, etc. I like the idea of realistic spread as it eliminates or at least reduces microing a somewhat annoying aspect of the game but the message spawn is a deal breaker, I won't be using it as much as I'd like to if this can't be toned down somehow.

12. Certain terrain features/improvements are unavailable in Worldbuilder for some bizarre reason by default in this mod. I can't think of a good reason for this, recommend you change these settings so it's "official" going forward.

CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml

<Type>IMPROVEMENT_CITY_RUINS</Type>
<bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>

<Type>IMPROVEMENT_CITY_RUINS_ARCOLOGY</Type>
<bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>

<Type>IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT</Type>
<bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>


13. peace/trade treaty length too short (10 turns) - change to 15 or even 20 turns - for the longer gamespeeds such as Marathon and on up 10 turns is fairly weak for a treaty length. I use 15 myself, feels like a better length when you get into long games. YMMV as always.

14. Someone a while back in another thread mentioned Sea Tunnels and if they work. I've used them and they do "work", but only for the player from what I've seen. You can use them yourself to manually send units across them to other continents and they will work as advertised. The enemy players AI, on the other hand, will ignore them and any auto AI units you have yourself (mainly workers but also corp/religion spreaders) will ignore them as well. They obviously don't count as a "normal" land connections when it comes to the AI and any routing it considers. Would love to see this altered/fixed at some point as I love the idea of the sea tunnels, they're just kinda of rough right now. See screenshot below:

Civ4ScreenShot0129.JPG

15. Has something changed with respect to the requirements to create colonies in this mod? I used to do it in vanilla BtS Civ4 without issue via alt-F1 but it doesn't seem to let me do it anymore. It always has nothing on the list of eligible cities, which is more than a little annoying. See screenshot:

Civ4ScreenShot0165.JPG

That's all for now, I have several other points and concerns worth mentioning but I'll stop now so as not to overload you. I'll post some more once these points have been up for a bit. Note that these are all suggestions, use them or not as you like but I will say I'll be using all of the changes that I've mentioned I can make via XML here myself.

Comments on anything above are welcome.
 
Some comments on the last few SVNs, say around 605 to 611 with multiple games played and various issues that have come up. This will be somewhat stream of conciousness and out of order as I've made notes or taken screenshots of useful items when they've shown up as things I wanted to mention. So then...
Okies, here are my thoughts on your post...

1. Buildings -- ice house, hotel and igloo - can't build due to lattitude restrictions, same with the Snow Castle of Kemi (sp?) WW as you can see below.
Seems like this needs to be fixed.

siam ho trai - library replacement - research bonus too strong - currently 40%, reduce to 30% at least - Siam is almost always tech leader when present in the game I've found, the new and far worse mansa musa it would seem. I wouldn't even play with them in my games without this edit present.
Never played with them but this does indeed seem OP, considering how trivial certain UB's are in this game.

3. Early game non-animal barbs are AWOL for the most part. Even with raging barbs on, virtually no attacks. You'll get the occasional unit or two, and in my last game I got 3 at once wow. Yeah, no where near what 'raging barbs' can do in the default game. Instead they seem to settle into barb cities way earlier than usual which is rather annoying I must say. This is a change in the SVN as I played the old AND beta2 and they were fine as I recall. So something has changed in the SVN, not sure what was done to cause this.
Yeah if this is still current it should be fixed.

4. Early game scouts too weak - animals too strong take your pick. When you have polar bears with strength 4 spawning 15 turns into the game your early scouts are just so much raw meat. A useful tweak I've made for my copy is to up scouts to 2 str with 50% vs animals. They survive much more often unless you're careless with where you end your turns all the time. You'll lose some but it makes early game exploration less frustrating.
I have noticed this problem every since I began playing ROM 3 years back. Basically the difference between RAND and vanilla BTS is that there are WAY more strong animals in RAND compared to BTS. In BTS the absolute strongest barb animal was the bear (strength 3) and it was VERY rare to come across one. The rest were wolves and occasionally lions that never exceeded strength 2. In the mods you have many animals with strength 3 and to top it the polar bear at 4. The fix to this problem is to make animals with strength 3 or more spawn much more rarely and make sure they dont spawn at all in at least the first 25 turns.

fresh water health bonus too small - this used to be +3 in base i think, now it's +1 which is meh. With all the extra pollution causing "things" in the game you'll be seeing green smoke all the time past the classical era which is again annoying for me. A quick fix I've made that semi-solves it is to up the fresh water bonus to +5, makes settling there much more attractive and pushes back the pain a bit. The root cause is lots of sick faces which should be brought back down I'd say.
Agreed that it should be boosted to +3 but not more. Here is a suggestion to something that could help things further that I have been thinking about over the last few weeks. My feel is that all fruit and vegetable based resources should add an extra :health: These include, apples, olives, lemons, bananas and fish (not crabs, clams or shrimps, just fish). Think about it, olives and fish are a lot healthier than pork and beef, so I dont think it would be far fetched to make this change.

6. 1st ring city culture too strong - can't overcome or flip cities - I assume this is Fixed Borders doing this given what I've read in the Civopedia on it. What a terrible idea, it basically makes culture wars and fighting over tiles and trying to flip cities peacefully via strong culture pointless and impossible. Way to ruin a well done mechanic from the base game whoever came up with this. I've NEVER seen a city flip or even be in remote danger from culture with that setting on in all the games I've played with this mod. Just awful. What is in these screenshots below should never ever happen in my view, this city should have flipped looong ago.
Could not agree more in this point. It is nigh impossible to culture flip cities. I among others, have campaigned quite vocally when fixed borders was made mandatory, and was glad when 45 decided to make fixed borders optional again. This change alone made me decide to move past 1.75C. Now I feel the next step would be to enable culture flipping under normal circumstances when a civ settles a city very close to the edges of your main territory. However I am not for culture flipping if one captures a city during war; then at that point I feel that the current 1 territory tile ownership ring around the city should be indefinite (as is now) or at least until your population in that city exceeds the captured cities population.

I see there is an option in the latest SVNs to turn off any use of Fixed Borders, that will solve this issue and make culture wars possible again, yes?
It will allow you to extend your borders and push back the borders of a rival civ up until 1 tile around their city. They will always keep 1 tile of useable space around their cities no matter what. I dont think this is particularly a bad mechanic but I would like to see culture flipping achievable.

7. weirdness with natural culture spread - hills, rivers, enemy culture --> see pic below:
Thats why I never play with that game option

8. great general experience gain way too slow with fractional xp rewards from combat - with the current settings I only got 3 or 4 GGs in the course of a game when I had major wars going on all over the place. I know GGs are powerful but presently they are too rare for my taste. Here are the settings I use, use / not use / tweak to your liking but it's what I'll be using going forward.
Agreed

9. Corporations 1: national units - corporation spreaders - build limit too small at 5 - up to at least 10 or more - long travel times make spreading annoying. Recommend you make them all unlimited like the religious missionaries.
Agreed, the limit should be extended.

10. Corporations 2: why only founding city for corporations can spread it? too tedious to manage, recommend removal of corporate HQ building in requirement for building spreader units. I can think of no good reason for this requirement aside from a hard nerf of all corps as someone didn't like them, I'll be removing it on all my SVN copies if it isn't done "officially" as it makes using corps a huge timesink and micro task just to annoy the player as far as I can see.
There is a civic which enables you to bypass this limitation.

11. Corporations 3: message spam with realistic corporation spread on - this has to do with the log window and end of turn notifications - if you use that setting you'll get spammed to death with messages every single turn about this corporation spreading here, no longer doing business here, needs this resource here, etc. I like the idea of realistic spread as it eliminates or at least reduces microing a somewhat annoying aspect of the game but the message spawn is a deal breaker, I won't be using it as much as I'd like to if this can't be toned down somehow.
I don't play with realistic corporation spread on; I love having control over how and where I spread my corps.

13. peace/trade treaty length too short (10 turns) - change to 15 or even 20 turns - for the longer gamespeeds such as Marathon and on up 10 turns is fairly weak for a treaty length. I use 15 myself, feels like a better length when you get into long games. YMMV as always.
I suppose this could be extended on longer game speeds but I would not like to see an increase beyond 15.

14. Someone a while back in another thread mentioned Sea Tunnels and if they work. I've used them and they do "work", but only for the player from what I've seen. You can use them yourself to manually send units across them to other continents and they will work as advertised. The enemy players AI, on the other hand, will ignore them and any auto AI units you have yourself (mainly workers but also corp/religion spreaders) will ignore them as well. They obviously don't count as a "normal" land connections when it comes to the AI and any routing it considers. Would love to see this altered/fixed at some point as I love the idea of the sea tunnels, they're just kinda of rough right now. See screenshot below:
No comment; i've never used them myself :)
 
@ urko,
Thanks for the list of observations/potential bugs, but list actually in wrong thread. ;)

1. All except "hotel" are WAD (works as designed). Will check hotel. Yes even the WW Snow Castle.

2. Under consideration

3. Sounds like you have BarbCiv On.

4. To you and Ark, WAD

5. What can I say Afforess, os79, and 45* like :yuck: in the mod. Imo +1 is low but your +5 is way too high.

6. Turn Fixed Borders Off and Turn Realistic Culture Off as well. Otherwise if you use them WAD.

7. Ditto

8. WAD, GG's are Not to be as common as ax or archers.

9. You'll need to take that up with 45* as I see No Problem, WAD.

10. WAD. Like Ark said there is a Civic for it.

11. Iirc there is a BUG Option over messages, otherwise WAD.

12. Because RoM-AND uses features and Improvements vanilla BtS does not.

13. Might need adjusted for game speed.

14. Known problem but no current solution even from the guy that made them.

15. Unknown.

Seems some of your problems are self inflicted (not understanding what an Option does or how it works with other Options) and some are play style and/or personal preferences. Just sayin'. :)

Thanks for the input.

JosEPh
 
@urko (sorry for quoting Joseph but it was easier)


1. All except "hotel" are WAD (works as designed). Will check hotel. Yes even the WW Snow Castle.

Hotel is fine, it's ICE hotel which can't be built at any latitude. BTW, this seems perfectly normal to me, unless you want an igloo or a snow castle built on the equator. Those limitations are there for a reason and IMHO they're perfectly fine. Why should I build an igloo on the equator line??? :confused:

2. Under consideration

I agree, I'll probably have to modify that.

3. Sounds like you have BarbCiv On.

No changes have been made after AND2beta2 on barbarians; probably, as Joseph said, you're using Barbarian Civs

4. To you and Ark, WAD

I actually find explorers/animals balancing very good. Sometimes it happens that a units get killed by animals and that's never been a problem to me. Build more of them. And FYI I play with Terrain Damage, which should make it harder than default game...

5. What can I say Afforess, os79, and 45* like :yuck: in the mod. Imo +1 is low but your +5 is way too high.

I really wonder how come I don't have so much :yuck: problems. The only time when this problem can get relevant is when I reach industrial era; but the problem is solved when you get some more techs. If so many people have this problem I could push fresh water :health: to +2 but I suppose most of your problems are in cities which DON'T have fresh water, so that wouldn't solve anything.

6. Turn Fixed Borders Off and Turn Realistic Culture Off as well. Otherwise if you use them WAD.

Correct. OR use Revolution. ;) If you manage to have your culture in the opponent city, that city WILL revolt. :)

8. WAD, GG's are Not to be as common as ax or archers.

Under consideration; the problem might be that if you're using Battlefield Promotions (under BUG options), GG points are not being accumulated. We're currently looking into this matter (I'll send you a PM Joseph).
9. You'll need to take that up with 45* as I see No Problem, WAD.


Normally I would agree, but IIRC the problem was that AI was spawning to many of them, killing every other production. But limit could be increased.

15. No, nothing has been changed AFAIK; I always can create new colonies without problems.

Everything else has already been answered if I'm not mistaken; thanks for the input.

Later I'll comment on civics, I have some idea myself.
 
Rev 613

- Trade agreements length is now Gamespeed-dependant (updated source files and dll compiled) (code imported from C2C)
- Max number of Corp&Guild Executives increased from 5 to 10
- Increased a bit Great Generals frequency
- Ho-Trai (Siamese Library) science tuned down from +40% to +30%
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12220711 said:
Rev 613

- Trade agreements length is now Gamespeed-dependant (updated source files and dll compiled) (code imported from C2C)
- Max number of Corp&Guild Executives increased from 5 to 10
- Increased a bit Great Generals frequency
- Ho-Trai (Siamese Library) science tuned down from +40% to +30%

Is this going to affect peace treaty and the starting forced peace? Those should really change based on game speed too.
 
Is this going to affect peace treaty and the starting forced peace? Those should really change based on game speed too.

Yes, it is. I'm not sure I'm aware of what "starting forced peace" is, but it definetly affects peace treaties as well as trade treaties.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12220711 said:
Rev 613

- Trade agreements length is now Gamespeed-dependant (updated source files and dll compiled) (code imported from C2C)
- Max number of Corp&Guild Executives increased from 5 to 10
- Increased a bit Great Generals frequency
- Ho-Trai (Siamese Library) science tuned down from +40% to +30%
Well done, thanks. Let me know what you think of the fruits (apples / olives / lemon's / bannana's / fish) giving an extra +1 :health:

I have to say though that I agree that :health: is rarely a problem until I reach the industrial era, and as you said this is usually addressed with hospitals and public transportation. I do find the maintenance costs for health buildings such as water treatment plants / aqueducts rather irritating though. I would propose removing the maintenance costs altogether of all such buildings and generally increasing their build cost to compensate.

What can I say Afforess, os79, and 45* like :yuck: in the mod. Imo +1 is low but your +5 is way too high.
The :yuck: is not excessive in these mods and are perfectly justifiable because of buildings like apiary / butchery / bakery / irrigation canals / artisans well / processing plant and such all which were absent in vanilla BTS. Growth thus had to be curbed somehow.
 
<snip>
The :yuck: is not excessive in these mods and are perfectly justifiable because of buildings like apiary / butchery / bakery / irrigation canals / artisans well / processing plant and such all which were absent in vanilla BTS. Growth thus had to be curbed somehow.

Matter of opinion and playstyle. Growth early game is Stifled, but I see the reason why Afforess did it. Does Not mean I agree with it now or back when he did it. But I understand it.

45* may rue the day that he asked me to help in the long run. Considering how much Afforess and I disagreed over this Mod's shaping and course. You were around for some of it iirc. Have you forgotten? I absolutely hated what killtech's influence upon Afforess decision making did to this mod. And I wasn't to keen on os79's influence either.

But here's the kicker, even after all our arguments Afforess and I, up till the last few months, were still in occasional contact outside this forum. Even after I left AND because I stated that all the FUN had been sucked out of the mod by the influence of the above mentioned ppl, Afforess still came to me asking me to review 1.75c and give him feedback.

I want this mod to be a challenge but Not at the expense of cutting out the Fun for drudgery.

JosEPh
 
@ urtho,
Thanks for the list of observations/potential bugs, but list actually in wrong thread. ;)

No. From the OP:

This thread should be dedicated to technical discussions about the current build by the AND team members and interested parties. Anyone can comment as long as the thread doesn't lose direction. Let's try to keep it focused on specific technical aspects of the current build. This includes coding, artwork, balancing, gameplay, mechanics, and all the rest of the nuts and bolts.

About the only thing I'm not covering here is artwork. And I could work that in here if you'd like. How about this - is Richleu the French leader supposed to move in such a stillted manner? Not sure if it's a bug or not but it's always weird to see his jerky movements when dealing with him. Anyways...

3. Sounds like you have BarbCiv On.

And? So what? I'm using an aspect of the mod that made me want to download it in the first place alongside a game setting available in the game setup options that I chose to use in a game.

Raging barbs should be raging barbs, if one aspect of a mod overrides another that should be clearly spelled out rather than left to guesswork. They settle too quickly into cities/civs anyways, it should be changed so that you get attacks more often, or have attacks and settling. The no attacks but settle quick with raging barbs on is a flaw in the mod.

4. To you and Ark, WAD

Guess I'll have to make the change on my copy every time I update along with many others. I think you and 45 are way off base here.

5. What can I say Afforess, os79, and 45* like :yuck: in the mod. Imo +1 is low but your +5 is way too high.

It is high, I've said as much. It was a quick fix to lessen the underlying issue which is lots of unhealthyness rather then editing all the civics, buildings, specialists and so on that are the root cause.

10. WAD. Like Ark said there is a Civic for it.

Forcing a specific civic change/usage just to eliminate player tedium and busywork in dealing with the UI and game screen in the normal course of playing a game is poor design. Removed on my copies as it clearly won't be changed, sigh.

12. Because RoM-AND uses features and Improvements vanilla BtS does not.

Wow... really? Are goodie huts and city ruins a RoM/AND exclusive then? How interesting, I'm not sure Firaxis would agree.

If you're running the base game you'll see them show up fine. If you're running this mod you won't... when they're still in the game as either the base game or the mod adds them in. Why would you not have options that the mod adds be visible in the mod? This comment makes no sense as you've removed a feature provided by the base game that the mod still uses.

Seems some of your problems are self inflicted (not understanding what an Option does or how it works with other Options) and some are play style and/or personal preferences. Just sayin'. :)

Was this really necessary? Honestly, I'm trying to help you correct what appear to be outright flaws and problems in the mod that I think got a lot right but needs some polish to smooth over some obvious issues, this type of attitude doesn't really make people want to help you out.

I've been playing Civ for a long time now, I tend to know what I'm doing with it. If I'm using something in this mod incorrectly it probably wasn't explained clear enough or there was conflicting advice or the feature doesn't work at all and this was never told to the player, you're just supposed to "know" this insider baseball information. Telling someone to not use a feature you use to "sell" the mod to prospective users is just pathetic really. If something doesn't work, don't use it as a talking point on the mod, remove it so it doesn't screw up games for people because they forgot to use their pyschic powers to read the designers minds and in any case should obviously have known not to use it in the first place.

Thanks for the input.

Hmm. I wonder, I really do. Moving on...


45°38'N-13°47'E;12220262 said:
@urtho (sorry for quoting Joseph but it was easier)

Why should I build an igloo on the equator line??? :confused:

Look at the screenshot again, there is tundra in the city radius and the city is well north of the equator (mini map). I've seen this over multiple games, the building are never buildable, even for a city that is near one of the poles surrounded by ice. Not sure how it's gotten messed up, something to do with the lattitude settings perhaps.

No changes have been made after AND2beta2 on barbarians; probably, as Joseph said, you're using Barbarian Civs

I said it above to him, but allow me to repeat - so? and? how is that relevant? And so on.

No attacks with raging barbs on while using another aspect of the mod is a flaw, if you don't think so then I'm not sure what to say really. I guess clearly spell out in your promos for the mod that if you use this aspect of the mod, don't expect to use a feature that's in the base game as this mod you're going to download and try out breaks that feature.

If so many people have this problem I could push fresh water :health: to +2 but I suppose most of your problems are in cities which DON'T have fresh water, so that wouldn't solve anything.

As I've said the +5 was a temp quick fix for my game to solve something that I think was off base, the underlying problem is too much unhealthy generating "things" in the mod, from buildings to civics and so on. I actually agree that +5 is too much but it was the quickest way to solve it in a current game I had going. Having said that, +1 is indeed way too low, it should be at least +2 or +3 imo.

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II
6. Turn Fixed Borders Off and Turn Realistic Culture Off as well. Otherwise if you use them WAD.

Great, turning off more features as they don't work. Sigh, selling your mod just wonderfully here.

Correct. OR use Revolution. ;) If you manage to have your culture in the opponent city, that city WILL revolt. :)

No. Just that really, no.

I have NEVER EVER seen a city even with the standard "revolt chance" pop appear since I've been using this mod. I use Rev all the time along with a strong cultural attack on enemy civs in many/most of my games and I still have never even seen the revolt possibility chance pop up a single time.

What do I need to change to remove the 1st ring and city tile cultural invulnrability that all cities currently have? This aspect of the mod is such an awful idea that I really have no more words for it. It cuts out a core part of what Civ4 is - if you can't defend your cities culturally so that you're losing control of nearby tiles and even the cities themselves TOO F-ING BAD, that's how it's supposed to work. Guess you need to push that dangerously close border away from a threatened city by other means, hmmm?

None of this "oh but you're such a helpless little city that can't be held vs enemy culture we feel sorry for, here have some free tiles you can work that you'll never ever lose no matter what happens to make it up to you" crap. FFS, really?

15. No, nothing has been changed AFAIK; I always can create new colonies without problems.

Hmm well ok then. I've had it happen in two games but I've admittedly not played around with colonies too much in this mod. If it happens again I'll be sure to make a note of it as it's very annoying when it happens as usually the only reason I take over useless islands like in the screenshot is in order to turn them into minor vassal civs as they can be occasionally useful at times. Not having to run or pay for or manage or care about defending far flung tiny empires was kinda the point of colonies in the first place.

thanks for the input.

Hmm, ok then. You're welcome, glad I could help. I'll have some more comments a bit later I think. Despite my tone at times I am trying to help you out here. This mod improves on and adds to many aspects in Civ4 that I enjoy but there are still some rather rough spots I would say.
 
urtho, I'll make it quick and I'll answer later to your suggestions: not every feature is meant to be used as you want to use them. And not every player has the same style in playing. For one thing "turning off more features as they don't work" it's simply a wrong description. Just because a feature doesn't work as YOU expected, it doesnt' mean it doesn't work.
AND was somehow a collection of different mods and I think nobody (and I say nobody) has still tried everything, so there can be conflicts between options but probably very few people have spoken about them. Not to mention the fact that it's a very hard work to reverse-engineer the code to understand what is doing what, since we're not the developers of the mod and they're not on the forum anymore (or they stop by very seldom). And since I admit we have little (but growing) coding experience, some time will pass before some features can be improved.
That said, we do really appreciate suggestions as I think our common goal is to improve the mod. But not everyone wants the mod changed in the same direction. And hey, if needed, changes can always be made locally, as I've done for a long time before getting AND Mod Manager. There are a lot of changes I've made for myself for example, that I haven't shared with everyone else because they could be "too extreme" or because people could dislike them.
Well, it looks like it wasn't that quick :lol:
Again, thank you for your suggestions, there are some things in your post I'll answer next time (it's getting late here in Italy). ;)
 
1st thing, many of the complaints you have here I do agree with. BUT..., there is Not much I can do about it as they are Afforess' designs for the Mod.

Understand this, 45* and I are "caretakers" for this mod now. Otherwise it would have No Support at all like RoM. Understand this? Bugs we try to fix. Philosophical differences between how this Mod plays and how Civ BtS vanilla plays was decided LONG before we were allowed to take over. Now If you have the talent to come up with the Means to reverse what you see as Wrong then make a modmod and submit it. If other players like it and it becomes popular we most likely would be Very Glad to add it in. But in this regard I can only speak for myself. 45*38'N may have a different opinion. And he has the keys to the car. I get to ride shotgun and try to supply answers as best I can. And I do Not have all the answers.

If I had My way there would be significant changes, like REV being Totally and irreversibly ripped out of this otherwise Great Mod. REV is a Bane to Good Mods and to Good AI programming IMHO. Others of course do not agree with me. But that's were I stand.

The very aspects of Raging or Aggressive Barbs are in fact Overridden If you use Barb Civ. Barb Civ concentrates the Barb AI into settling down, build cities, and reach a set size and then Becoming New Civs that start with the Minor status. Completely at odds with Raging Barbs. If you do not understand or accept that I have no solution for you. Use one or the other but not both, they are mutually exclusive.

Quite frankly many of your proposals/observations came across as a new player who has never played any mods and not much RoM/AND but only vanilla BtS.

Helping out is always welcome, but belittling or badgering is not. We have a choice here.

JosEPh :)

Edit: I'm an old man (over 60) and sometimes my hackles get raised when the post seems to be combative. Granpa don't take kindly to backtalk, if you know what I mean. ;) So beware! I get grumpy too! :)
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12220711 said:
Rev 613

- Trade agreements length is now Gamespeed-dependant (updated source files and dll compiled) (code imported from C2C)
- Max number of Corp&Guild Executives increased from 5 to 10
- Increased a bit Great Generals frequency
- Ho-Trai (Siamese Library) science tuned down from +40% to +30%

YES! :goodjob:

and @urtho play it, don't play it we don't really care - but don't make out that these guys owe you anything, even respect, coz they don't.
 
@Sgt,

On your trait proposals, would you be willing to make a write up of them and a list of proposed changes so 45* and I could look them over?

I copied your last list but I've changed computers since then and just have not had the time to look it over. Iirc wasn't it only a partial list?

Thanks,
JosEPh

Edit: I re d/l'd it but is that the complete list of traits? Seems rather short.
 
Regarding traits: Yeah thats all of them. You mean in the file? What I listed in my earlier post was just what I changed.
I noticed spiritual already is 1 max turn anarchy instead of max 0, so that doesn't need to be changed obviously.
Giving deceiver +1 :espionage: per city and nerfing industrious to 35% wonders or 30% are the only 'necessary' changes imo. I like the rest of the changes I included, minor balance tweaks, that I couldn't say are necessary. Although expansive could really use an extra :health:

Also back in August last year I went through and spread out the leaderheads to have a bit more of an even distribution of the traits for ROM-AND. I can't remember specifically which I changed, you'd have to have a look, but generally much less aggressive civs and much more scientific & deceiver, probably few other ones too.
 

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