Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

Sogroon said:
I like the idea of putting buildings into lines, and have a few ideas I would like to share:


Elders council --> School of scribes --> Printer
I think these buildings have a similar purpose: Preserving knowledge. Also their bonuses are fitting.

An other line I think would be reasonable:
Fire pit --> Storytellers circle --> Any temple
I feel these buildings similar in that they are places of social gatherings and fulfil emotional-spiritual needs.
I would make Fire pit cheaper, and make it free after some tech, and give it +1:culture:

I think the early buildings shouldn't go obsolate this way, just being replace.


Also Shrine shouldn't go obsolate, isn't it enough that it is civic dependant?
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I like some of this, but not Storyteller Circle. I like the idea of linking Fire Pit/Ceremonial Altar/Temple because they are all ritual buildings. Storyteller Circle is more about entertainment; thus the happy bonus. I think I will push Elder Council going obsolete back to Alphabet so as to give you a window to upgrade EC to School of Scribes, and then push Scribes going obsolete to Journalism to give you the window to upgrade to Printer. There are a couple other buildings that are going to get their obsoleting pushed back to make proper lines (Town Watch and Gambling Hall are on my list).

I think Shrine going obsolete is to keep it from being too good in the late game when you have lots of resources. I think there is also too much of a cluster of religion civics in the Ancient Era and that they could be broken up somewhat.
 
Vokarya said:
I like some of this, but not Storyteller Circle. I like the idea of linking Fire Pit/Ceremonial Altar/Temple because they are all ritual buildings. Storyteller Circle is more about entertainment; thus the happy bonus. I think I will push Elder Council going obsolete back to Alphabet so as to give you a window to upgrade EC to School of Scribes, and then push Scribes going obsolete to Journalism to give you the window to upgrade to Printer. There are a couple other buildings that are going to get their obsoleting pushed back to make proper lines (Town Watch and Gambling Hall are on my list).
Click to expand...

Than how about replacing Storytellers Circle with Theatre? First you just tell the story, later you play it.

I think Shrine going obsolete is to keep it from being too good in the late game when you have lots of resources. I think there is also too much of a cluster of religion civics in the Ancient Era and that they could be broken up somewhat.
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I see your point, but Shrine is good or too good only until changing to State Church or Free Church, witch doesn't take too long.
How about replacing this one too with the temples? That would give a little early bonus to those civs, that could not fund a religion.
 
I'm going to have to clean my screenshots out of this thread. I'm getting full on attachments and need to make some room. I think just about everything in here that isn't very recent is now in the mod.
 
I'm redoing my comprehensive list of what each tech allows and finding a few things as I go that should be cleaned up.

I want to push Boatyard to go obsolete at Screw Propeller. It currently goes obsolete at Navigation, which is also where its replacement Marina appears. If the Boatyard is obsolete, then the Marina never gets to upgrade it.

Gambling Hall doesn't necessarily need to go obsolete at Legalized Gambling. I think it would be better if it never went obsolete but was replaced by Casino. Then the gamblers flock to the new, clean, legal gambling place and the Hall disappears. The 10% gold from the Casino should be better than the +3 gold from the Hall.

Likewise, I think Town Watch should be allowed to evolve into Police Station. If we push Town Watch's obsoleting back to Labor Union, then there is a window where Town Watch can upgrade to Police Station. I also think Police Station should require either/both of Courthouse and/or Jail (and maybe even Jail requiring Courthouse first). What do you think?
 
Vokarya said:
I'm redoing my comprehensive list of what each tech allows and finding a few things as I go that should be cleaned up.

I want to push Boatyard to go obsolete at Screw Propeller. It currently goes obsolete at Navigation, which is also where its replacement Marina appears. If the Boatyard is obsolete, then the Marina never gets to upgrade it.

Gambling Hall doesn't necessarily need to go obsolete at Legalized Gambling. I think it would be better if it never went obsolete but was replaced by Casino. Then the gamblers flock to the new, clean, legal gambling place and the Hall disappears. The 10% gold from the Casino should be better than the +3 gold from the Hall.

Likewise, I think Town Watch should be allowed to evolve into Police Station. If we push Town Watch's obsoleting back to Labor Union, then there is a window where Town Watch can upgrade to Police Station. I also think Police Station should require either/both of Courthouse and/or Jail (and maybe even Jail requiring Courthouse first). What do you think?
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I agree on everything but would prefer Police Station to require Jail OR Courthouse: sounds better to me and easier to get.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13037538 said:
I agree on everything but would prefer Police Station to require Jail OR Courthouse: sounds better to me and easier to get.
Click to expand...

Sure, we can do that. I was trying to make a law enforcement "cluster" of buildings (not necessarily replacements, but still linked together). It's still easy enough to do.
 
Some minor touch-ups coming in the next revision:

I will have Elder Council stay around until Alphabet but be replaced by School of Scribes. I will have to look more carefully at establishing the School of Scribes - Printer connection. I don't want science to go down because one building replaces another.

Fire Pit will lead into Ceremonial Altar and then all Temples.

For those who use Guilds, Apothecaries Master Guild will require Apothecary instead of Healer's Hut. It seems to make more sense this way.
 
I just realized that Movie Theatre is replacing Theatre :confused:
While I see your point with it Vokarya, i don't think it is an accurate choice, sinse they serve two different purposes: Theatre is a source of culture, while Cinema is rather a source of entertainment. They coexist in our days.
However Theatre could lose some of its bonuses with the appearance of Movie Theatre's tech, since it's no longer so attractive.


I totally agree with Wirtual Reality replacing them both.
(...maybe Opera house too? :rolleyes:)


And what do you think of Theatre replacing Storyteller's Circle ?
At least SC would not hang in the air.
 
Some more minor changes:

Town Watch: Add 1 Spy slot. I don't currently think the number of available Spy slots is balanced against the number of other specialist slots, and this will help.

Candlemaker's Shop: Can build with Apiary OR Butchery. It should not need both - either Butchery for tallow or Apiary for wax.

Drydock: Move from Steel to Machine Tools. Right now, Machine Tools is a totally agricultural tech, as it provides the Cannery and +1 food from Farms. I'd like to give Machine Tools something non-food-related as well.
 
Vokarya said:
Some more minor changes:

Town Watch: Add 1 Spy slot. I don't currently think the number of available Spy slots is balanced against the number of other specialist slots, and this will help.

Candlemaker's Shop: Can build with Apiary OR Butchery. It should not need both - either Butchery for tallow or Apiary for wax.

Drydock: Move from Steel to Machine Tools. Right now, Machine Tools is a totally agricultural tech, as it provides the Cannery and +1 food from Farms. I'd like to give Machine Tools something non-food-related as well.
Click to expand...


I really like the Town Watch idea :)
Spy Specialists are so rare before the Industrial/Modern, and it does make sense too :)

I like the other ideas too, but the Town Watch spy addition was the highlight for me ^^
 
Vokarya said:
I looked at the Tech Tree some more, and I found out that it is possible to get to Shielding (where the Arcology Shielding tech becomes available) without getting Skyroads (where the Barbwire Fence goes obsolete). I think the Arcology Shielding would make anything as simple as a barbed wire fence superfluous, so I'm going to make the Arcology Shielding a replacement for the Fence.

View attachment 368577

The one thing that I did notice was that going from Anti-Missile Batteries and/or Barbwire Fence to Arcology Shielding is a drop in city defense. I think we should increase Arcology Shielding to +75% city defense and Advanced Shielding to +100%. It may seem like a lot, but advanced military units can shred defenses pretty quickly and most units are Ignore Building Defense by this point as well.

EDIT: To balance things out, we should give Arcology Shielding +75% city defense, +25% espionage defense, and -25% damage from bombardment, and Advanced Shielding +100% city defense, +50% espionage defense, and -50% damage from bombardment.
Click to expand...

Tanks made static defenses like barb-wire obsolete. Letting them continue to be useful past that point doesn't make much sense. There is no useful static defense in the modern era against ground attack. Letting it pick back up in the post-modern eras with energy shielding makes sense though.
 
I was thinking about the usefulnes of Palaside. Doesn't it get replaced too quikly with walls? :mischief:
IMHO you get walls too quikly, before you would need any fortification.
I don't think walls should be pushed back in the tec tree, but maybe walls could require a city size of 6 or so.
 
Combat Wombat said:
Tanks made static defenses like barb-wire obsolete. Letting them continue to be useful past that point doesn't make much sense. There is no useful static defense in the modern era against ground attack. Letting it pick back up in the post-modern eras with energy shielding makes sense though.
Click to expand...

Most units by this point are Ignores Building Defense. This will help you against any unit that is not, which would include most of the basic gunpowder units.
 
Sogroon said:
I was thinking about the usefulnes of Palaside. Doesn't it get replaced too quikly with walls? :mischief:
IMHO you get walls too quikly, before you would need any fortification.
I don't think walls should be pushed back in the tec tree, but maybe walls could require a city size of 6 or so.
Click to expand...

I don't want to do city size requirements on buildings. Palisade is supposed to be cheap early defense. I could bring the cost down even further -- it currently costs half of Walls, but it could be lowered even more. I find the Ancient Era to pretty tedious at this point because building costs are so high compared to hammer production.
 
Something that I am trying to avoid with buildings in general is for them to go obsolete without giving you the opportunity to upgrade them first. The Armourer is a building like this; it shows up at Smithing, gives +20% land unit production and 1 Engineer slot, and then disappears at Flintlock. I think it would be a good idea to fold this building into the Siege Weapons Workshop-Cannon Forge-Arsenal line, like this:
  • Cannon Forge gets +20% to Land Unit production (mirroring Armourer). This then increases to 25% for all units at Arsenal.
  • Cannon Forge and Arsenal get 1 Engineer specialist slot.
  • Armourer then upgrades to Cannon Forge and Arsenal. It still goes obsolete at Flintlock, but you have from Gunpowder to Flintlock to upgrade it.

What do you think?
 
In gameplay terms that looks really good!

Though I'm not sure how a cannon forge is supposed to speed construction of ALL land units. (It makes sense for the Arsenal though)
 
Vokarya said:
I don't want to do city size requirements on buildings. Palisade is supposed to be cheap early defense. I could bring the cost down even further -- it currently costs half of Walls, but it could be lowered even more. I find the Ancient Era to pretty tedious at this point because building costs are so high compared to hammer production.
Click to expand...

Amen Brother! +1

JosEPh
 
Vokarya said:
Palisade is supposed to be cheap early defense. I could bring the cost down even further -- it currently costs half of Walls, but it could be lowered even more.
Click to expand...
I didn't see where Palisade was on the tech tree until my recent game. Agreed, if it was cheaper I might've bothered but as it was I decided to just wait until walls, which weren't far off.
 
Vokarya said:
I don't want to do city size requirements on buildings. Palisade is supposed to be cheap early defense. I could bring the cost down even further -- it currently costs half of Walls, but it could be lowered even more. I find the Ancient Era to pretty tedious at this point because building costs are so high compared to hammer production.
Click to expand...

I see.
Than lower the price to 1/4 or 1/5, maybe and change obsolate tech to the same as for walls. In this way we will allways have the chance to get a quick-built low deffence buildings even in the new small cities.
What do you think, does it make sense?
 
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