Merging Expanded Castles into the base game

Afforess

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
12,239
Location
Austin, Texas
There has been a lot of discussion hinting at merging the "Expanded Castles" option into the base game. This would remove the option and make the buildings always available for all games.

There are several castle expansions which will be removed in this merge. I think most obvious, the dungeon and catacombs buildings should be removed. The dungeon is rarely, if ever, useful. The catacombs are handled very poorly by the AI, as they frequently build them to solve gold shortages but don't understand the risks. Normally, it would be worthwhile to fix the AI, but regularly human players also seem to misunderstand and avoid this building as well. It seems simplest to remove the catacombs then try to fix both AI and human perceptions of the building.

In addition, I would also lobby for the removal of the Balistraria (Arrow Slits). It seems to me that such defenses come as part of any wall fortification.

The remaining buildings would become part of the base game:

  • Castle Garden
    • +2 Health
  • Moat
    • Zone of Control
  • Ballista Turret
    • Deals 10% damage to adjacent enemy units per turn
  • Castle Keep
    • +50% Defense
    • +6 culture
    • Citizens rebel against captors 200% longer
  • Castle Gatehouse
    • Enemies can not invade until the defenses fall to 25%
  • Herbalist
    • One injuried troop will be fully healed per turn
 
The only one I'm not sure about keeping is the Herbalist. The healing mechanic seems to be really out-of-place compared to the rest of the castle buildings, and I think it would be better off on actual medical buildings rather than a stand-alone, but we're not currently using it on very many other buildings. I did drag it out for the Regenerator building.

Otherwise, I am definitely in favor of merging the Expanded Castles into the main mod.
 
Vokarya said:
The only one I'm not sure about keeping is the Herbalist. The healing mechanic seems to be really out-of-place compared to the rest of the castle buildings, and I think it would be better off on actual medical buildings rather than a stand-alone, but we're not currently using it on very many other buildings. I did drag it out for the Regenerator building.

Otherwise, I am definitely in favor of merging the Expanded Castles into the main mod.
Click to expand...

+1 :goodjob:
 
The castle prerequisite for the herbalist is mostly to make it harder to get.
 
Those seem like a good idea, Afforess. Go ahead. :)
 
Go for it :).
 
My subjective opinion.

0. Yes, I dont protest for removing dungeon and catacombs. I'm agree with this arguments.

1. About "herbalist"

I think that herbalist is unrealistic. The modern medicina heals 10-20% of hp and medieval shaman can heal 100%? I don't think so. I know, that realism is less then gameplay, but I don't understand what gameplay is added by the herbalist to compensate totally unrealism.

2. About "gatehouse".

There is problem that AI seems dont understand the concept. There were many times when huge enemy army without siege weapons travelling on my land without any result. It is too easy now to defense from all AI aggression. I even not build units, gatehouse is enough. If AI will understand concept than it is good building, but may be too cheep for it's real power.

3. Gatehouse + Ballista turret.

And this in addition to AI problem is too overpowered. There is need too much power to invade city with this 2 buildings. AI can never do that ( i've newer saw), and even for human it is hard task. Cost of this 2 buildings incomparable with cost of army to invade this city. I think that there is sense to nerf them and also to increase cost.
 
The herbalist could be given a +10% or +15% healing per turn instead of the insta-heal to make it more sensible.
 
Noyyau said:
The herbalist could be given a +10% or +15% healing per turn instead of the insta-heal to make it more sensible.
Click to expand...

That would make the herbalist more powerful, not less. If you are besieged and have 10-15 units in a city, healing 1 per turn is helpful, but not overpowered. Healing all 10-15 units by 10% is extremely powerful and will make sieges much harder.
 
val3 said:
My subjective opinion.

0. Yes, I dont protest for removing dungeon and catacombs. I'm agree with this arguments.

1. About "herbalist"

I think that herbalist is unrealistic. The modern medicina heals 10-20% of hp and medieval shaman can heal 100%? I don't think so. I know, that realism is less then gameplay, but I don't understand what gameplay is added by the herbalist to compensate totally unrealism.

2. About "gatehouse".

There is problem that AI seems dont understand the concept. There were many times when huge enemy army without siege weapons travelling on my land without any result. It is too easy now to defense from all AI aggression. I even not build units, gatehouse is enough. If AI will understand concept than it is good building, but may be too cheep for it's real power.

3. Gatehouse + Ballista turret.

And this in addition to AI problem is too overpowered. There is need too much power to invade city with this 2 buildings. AI can never do that ( i've newer saw), and even for human it is hard task. Cost of this 2 buildings incomparable with cost of army to invade this city. I think that there is sense to nerf them and also to increase cost.
Click to expand...

1.) As a mentioned earlier, healing 1 unit 100% is less powerful than all units 10%. I hear a lot of complaints about this building but I have never played a game where it has been a major factor in any war, so I am curious if anyone has actual experience with the building or are just armchair generals.

2.) I agree. I have also seen the AI confused about the gatehouse. What about changing the gatehouse mechanic then? Instead of the gatehouse preventing attackers from entering before defenses are lower than 25%, how about giving all defender units adjacent to the city a 50% chance to withdraw to the city when attacked. This isn't a normal withdraw chance, it does not apply when attacking, but when an enemy attacks a unit next to the city, it gets a free 50% chance to withdraw to the city.

3.) Ballista could require a citizen to be employed. That would make it only a reasonable building in large cities.
 
Afforess said:
1.) As a mentioned earlier, healing 1 unit 100% is less powerful than all units 10%. I hear a lot of complaints about this building but I have never played a game where it has been a major factor in any war, so I am curious if anyone has actual experience with the building or are just armchair generals.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm agree. I didn't say that herbalist break the balance or something. It is not. His impact in gameplay is minimal. And it is totally unrealistic. That's why I will not be upset and will be even glad if it will be removed ( or reworked). But it is not a big deal :)

About your ideas in gatehouse and ballista turret - I like them. Both changes will improve current situation. May be somebody have even better ideas.

Note. But in withdrawal chance - in old versions there was a problem when I exploited 100% withdrawal chance. I don't know current situation, in last games i can not achieve horses.
We need to check that 100% withdrawal chance will be not achievable.
I think, will be good when different withdrawal modificators not simply add but count each other.
E.g. when you have modificators p1, p2, p3 current result is (p1 + p2 + p3)% of withdrawal, and it can exceed 100%.
May be better use formula - ( 1 - ( 1 - p1 ) * ( 1 - p2 ) * ( 1 - p3 ))% - now it can not exceed 100%.

For example when you have 3 modificators - 50% from gatehouse, 30% from knight, and 20% from general it can be 1 - 0.5 * 0.7 * 0.8 = 72% chance of withdrawal.
 
Posted elsewhere on this, but I played a couple games with expanded castles on before I got frustrated with them and turned them off. Herbalist is enormously frustrating when you've already attacked and wounded/ killed most troops but don't have the numbers to take the city in that turn. (Combined with defender withdrawal there were a couple times I wanted to throw something.) My wounded troops could easily finish off their remaining wounded next turn with little or no loss, but suddenly they have a full health unit that I'm going to need to sacrifice a couple wounded troops to finish off. Also had same issues as already mentioned by others with gatehouse.
 
It's ok to me to change herbalist, but Castle Gatehouse? I don't know, I like the mechanic and actually never had a problem with it and AI. But maybe that's just me; I don't think AI not bringing siege weapons depends on gatehouse, especially since AI doesn't know if the city they're going to siege has CG or not.

Edit: moreover, Labyrinth of Knossos has the same mechanic. I think it could stay at least there since it's just 1 city using it.
 
I would vote from not including any of the expanded castle stuff. Minor building improvements don't really fit in a civ game.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13384513 said:
It's ok to me to change herbalist, but Castle Gatehouse? I don't know, I like the mechanic and actually never had a problem with it and AI. But maybe that's just me; I don't think AI not bringing siege weapons depends on gatehouse, especially since AI doesn't know if the city they're going to siege has CG or not.

Edit: moreover, Labyrinth of Knossos has the same mechanic. I think it could stay at least there since it's just 1 city using it.
Click to expand...

I think the Labyrinth of Knossos is fine because it is a one-off wonder.

With the castle gatehouse though, I know I've seen a fair share of confused user comments about being unable to attack a city and AI strangeness around them. I think anything that modifies the AI pathing (like the castle gatehouse does) is fairly confusing to the AI.

The problem with changing the Herbalist is I can not think of any mechanics that would be less unrealistic or less powerful. More broad healing per turn powers would be more powerful than what it already does. And to be honest, the herbalist mechanic has never bothered me.
 
Afforess said:
I think the Labyrinth of Knossos is fine because it is a one-off wonder.

With the castle gatehouse though, I know I've seen a fair share of confused user comments about being unable to attack a city and AI strangeness around them. I think anything that modifies the AI pathing (like the castle gatehouse does) is fairly confusing to the AI.

The problem with changing the Herbalist is I can not think of any mechanics that would be less unrealistic or less powerful. More broad healing per turn powers would be more powerful than what it already does. And to be honest, the herbalist mechanic has never bothered me.
Click to expand...

Let's just leave both. I don't mind Castle Gatehouse myself. In fact, I used that as the reason to give Labyrinth the abilities it has. Maybe we just need to strengthen the AI priority on including siege units with a stack that's going to attack cities?
 
Vokarya said:
Let's just leave both. I don't mind Castle Gatehouse myself. In fact, I used that as the reason to give Labyrinth the abilities it has. Maybe we just need to strengthen the AI priority on including siege units with a stack that's going to attack cities?
Click to expand...

Definitely yes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Predator145
Medieval Castles/Fortresses from Kyriakos' city and terrain graphics
Replies
0
Views
546
Predator145
Predator145
A
  • Locked
(4-03a) Counterproposal: Defensive building tweaks
Replies
12
Views
1K
Recursive
Recursive
Recursive
  • Locked
New BETA Version - 4.4.2 (December 31, 2023)
11 12 13
Replies
240
Views
35K
Recursive
Recursive
Recursive
  • Locked
  • Poll
[Vote] (4-03) Defensive Building Tweak Proposals
Replies
1
Views
896
saamohod
saamohod
A
Strategic Resource AI Valuation Rework
Replies
3
Views
810
axatin
A
Top Bottom