Fixed Borders, Minimum City Border, Revolution, City Flipping
- Thread starter 45°38'N-13°47'E
- Start date
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
As I've said my idea would be to change from that single unit holding the city to something like doubling the revolt index requested to flip the city or to cause rebellion (compared to when you don't have Fixed Borders). But I still have to think about it and test it.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Maybe I'm not getting it, but why? (If you do not use FB (not On)) would doubling the revolt index make City flipping work if a unit is stationed in the city?
You will never have a situation where the city is "empty of units". A city should flip even if there Are multiple units in it.
JosEPh
You will never have a situation where the city is "empty of units". A city should flip even if there Are multiple units in it.
JosEPh
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
No, I want to get rid of that "1 unit preventing revolution" part of the code, and changing it with something else that makes Fixed Borders valuable anyway, without being so extreme, hence my suggestion to require double the pressure necessary to flip a city if fixed borders civics are being used.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
45°38'N-13°47'E;13451186 said:
The other thing I noticed is that in base Civilization IV, it doesn't take much to suppress a culture flip. IIRC eight units can often keep it from flipping until it's well past 90% your culture, then it will have a (Still fairly low) chance of flipping. Fixed Borders will be doubling up on that required pressure..
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
It can be set in some revolution config file but there are many types of revolt, not just cultural. Religious ones, for example. IIRC, no cultural revolt can happen if owner of the city has more than 45% of culture in that city, which looks fair enough to me.
Edit: right now revolt chances can't go over 10% but with my proposed change they can go again up to 100%. I had revolts in a city full of units, although I don't remember how many of them.
Edit: right now revolt chances can't go over 10% but with my proposed change they can go again up to 100%. I had revolts in a city full of units, although I don't remember how many of them.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1hw9n1irj9mgvdr/Civ4ScreenShot0160.JPG?dl=0
Here you go, 15 granadiers in a city I've conquered this turn; about 33% of chances of revolt. Does it sound fair?
Here you go, 15 granadiers in a city I've conquered this turn; about 33% of chances of revolt. Does it sound fair?
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
45°38'N-13°47'E;13451236 said:
Interesting...
15 grenadiers and a 33% chance of revolt seems fair enough, given how many units the AI tend to cram into their cities (And they're pretty good at moving more units in once danger of revolting comes in!)
Testing will be needed of course, but it looks good
For now, as I explained in this thread, one successful mission of this is enough to put a city with not a single drop of revolution to go to Danger state. Putting culture with spies or IDW can't compete with Aid Rebel Faction.
So it's the best way to ensure revolution. The problem is: If the culture % in the city isn't favorable to you, hardly the revolution will be supporting you. Instead it'll probably revolt to the owner of the highest culture % (if it's not the owner of course) in the city, or spawn a new civ or barbs if the majority of culture is of the owner himself.
@45º
It seems fair to me, but my opinion is rather irrelevant to this because I can't play with Revolutions Off.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
It depends on many factors, units in the city, culture, religions, etc, but it shouldn't flip until there's at least 45% of the other civ culture
Actually with Revolutions, most of the time you'll have to do what you said. But sometimes a city without much of your culture may rebel to you in a big rebellion just because the other cities rebelling have a lot of your culture.
E.g. Civ A (you) has a lot of culture in 3 cities of Civ B (AI). Civ B is suffering with revolts in 4 cities near Civ A (3 of them are the 3 described above). Then a revolution happens which Civ B can't avoid. The revolution happens in these 4 cities. As the majority of the cities would like to rebel to you, the 4th city (which can have, for example, 20% of your culture, or even 0% I guess) will rebel to you as well. So you can make a city rebel to you even if it doesn't have much of your culture. But that's the only case I know that this can happen.
Also in revolutions there are only 3 ways of a city flipping:
- The host civ let it go (a popup shows for you to agree or not); This is the one that has a problem of OOS we are discussing about.
- The host civ wants to become a part of you (common situation with friendly small nearby vassals), then another popup will show (I don't remember if this one has issues).
- A revolution occurs in an undefended city.
So actually the answer is no. In order to make a city flip to you (with revolutions ON) you must be sure the revolution in the city will spawn your troops (in other words they are revolting to join you) and kill the last defender of the city in the turn before it happens (which isn't hard to discover, a message is displayed to you and the cities go on riot). As a city may revolt to you with or without much of your culture, as explained above, then the answer is no. But normally it's true. It's the way to go, because if you don't have any culture in revolting cities of another player, then the revolution won't be to join you, but rather another player or a new civ.
Ah, thank you very much! And if I cause more revolts in a city (due to aid rebel factions), it is more likely to flip? The mechanic is really in depth, I didn't know about that
Ah, thank you very much! And if I cause more revolts in a city (due to aid rebel factions), it is more likely to flip? The mechanic is really in depth, I didn't know about that
Oh, I would like to add a glitch of the game, the most recent me and my civ friends discovered about:
If you make an enemy city undefended but don't conquer it, and let it revolt to you, if it has a National Wonder you already have and can't build another duplicate, you gain it for free. On my last game on LoR I had 3 Fireworks Festival (NW, only 1 available, +1
in all cities), 2 Heroic Epics, and I discovered it doesn't work with the Forbidden Palace.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Actually it's not irrelevant as it continues to color the process of City Flipping without Rev On.
I once told Afforess years ago (when he declared that REV was more of a basis for AND than was RoM, back when AND was still a modmod) that this mod should've been a modmod for REV back then. And back when kalimachus added a REV modmod for RoM v1.0 I pleaded with Zappara to keep REV as an Option (introduced in RoM1.03) for those of us who don't use Rev, not to be saddled with it. And very fortunately for me and those like me (few as we are) Zappara did agree and kept it that way all thru RoM's versions.
This is of course Afforess brain child and labor of love. If he would decide to make REV default I of course would protest, but in the end it would be his decision because it's his efforts not mine. I would either have to learn to play with REV or abandon AND. Realistically I have saved many AND versions so that later option would be mitigated. I just would be giving up any future versions and improvements. And I'm not saying Afforess will do this either, but it is always a possibility because it's his mod and not mine.
JosEPh
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Revolution will NOT become mandatory, nothing to worry about. Keeping it off there should be no interference at all right now.
Also I don't support making Revolution Mandatory. I wouldn't mind it became so, but for me there is no difference in any choice.
And Revolutions still need a lot of balancing. I must admit that my jump through the levels of the game could only take place when I discovered to use revolutions in my favor. If it wasn't for that I would still be suffering to win a game on Immortal. The first game I discovered the uses of revolution, we were playing on Deity (one of our first attempts, 4 players on Huge and 1500 turns, old marathon) and I was doomed by my starting spot. 2 of us started near each other with few enemies nearby and a good localization. Me and the other player were placed on another continent of the old world not too far away from each other. But he was on a 2-tile peninsula (easy to use the shield glitch), and I was on the open. We still played with Raging Barbarians at the time.
I rushed for the Great Wall to stop the barbs and try to use them as my shield. Then the Malinese spawned right beside me, and came with a huge army of skirmishers, axemen, swordsmen and spearmen. I only had Archers. So I decided to abandon my second and third cities and gather all my military on my capital. He took the first city and marched to the other one right beside it. Then he garrisoned them without going further to conquer me. Suddenly Revolution started and gave me:
Several Units that I couldn't even dream about (all he had, except for skirmishers, that came as archers);
A Free unnatached Great General;
A Free Settler;
A Spy already 50% stationed in one of the cities;
A discount in unit maintenance cost (like from 5 Free Units it went to 25 Free Units);
A lot of
points on Mali;
And
from some techs he knew that I didn't.
So when all of that came to me for free in 1 turn, I decided to keep those cities rebelling to me as long as possible. Of course when I got bigger and the rebelling cities lost some of their defenders, the revolutions were giving me less and less bonuses. But I'm sure I could get at least 3 settlers and some 5 GGens.
This game died because the players on the other continent got attacked by the Supreme AI.
After that I started using this tactic in most of my games, whenever possible. It's supreme! In the least, it lets you focus on wonders and infrastructure, while an enemy city spawns military troops to you, lowering the unit maintenance cost from time to time.
And Revolutions still need a lot of balancing. I must admit that my jump through the levels of the game could only take place when I discovered to use revolutions in my favor. If it wasn't for that I would still be suffering to win a game on Immortal. The first game I discovered the uses of revolution, we were playing on Deity (one of our first attempts, 4 players on Huge and 1500 turns, old marathon) and I was doomed by my starting spot. 2 of us started near each other with few enemies nearby and a good localization. Me and the other player were placed on another continent of the old world not too far away from each other. But he was on a 2-tile peninsula (easy to use the shield glitch), and I was on the open. We still played with Raging Barbarians at the time.
I rushed for the Great Wall to stop the barbs and try to use them as my shield. Then the Malinese spawned right beside me, and came with a huge army of skirmishers, axemen, swordsmen and spearmen. I only had Archers. So I decided to abandon my second and third cities and gather all my military on my capital. He took the first city and marched to the other one right beside it. Then he garrisoned them without going further to conquer me. Suddenly Revolution started and gave me:
Several Units that I couldn't even dream about (all he had, except for skirmishers, that came as archers);
A Free unnatached Great General;
A Free Settler;
A Spy already 50% stationed in one of the cities;
A discount in unit maintenance cost (like from 5 Free Units it went to 25 Free Units);
A lot of
points on Mali;And
from some techs he knew that I didn't.So when all of that came to me for free in 1 turn, I decided to keep those cities rebelling to me as long as possible. Of course when I got bigger and the rebelling cities lost some of their defenders, the revolutions were giving me less and less bonuses. But I'm sure I could get at least 3 settlers and some 5 GGens.
This game died because the players on the other continent got attacked by the Supreme AI.
After that I started using this tactic in most of my games, whenever possible. It's supreme! In the least, it lets you focus on wonders and infrastructure, while an enemy city spawns military troops to you, lowering the unit maintenance cost from time to time.
Afforess
The White Wizard
Please drop the discussion regarding making Revolutions a default forced option. It will never happen. The people who have brought the topic up are spreading FUD and have an agenda. There never has been any discussion on the team to make Revolutions a default option, so the discussion here is at best, pointless waste of words, and at worst, a tactic to drive a wedge between members of the community here.
Revolutions will always be optional.
Revolutions will always be optional.
What's FUD? Those english abbreviations are hard to decipher for me.
