SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Mitchum · Jan 2, 2011

babybluepants said:
Not my plan - bcool suggested it as a way to open up St Nick for gift to Roosevelt. Not sure how to capture it. Don't really wanna spend on two more units, but I guess we could?

I'm not sure this is necessary. We'll be able to steal one, maybe two, more techs from Roosevelt. Even with the occasional civics change via espionage, I think we'll have more than enough passive epp to do what's needed using Troy and Vlad.

If we capture St Nick, we'll have to deal with Mao's fleet of caravels in the Indian Ocean. Is it worth it?

Mitchum · Jan 2, 2011

babybluepants said:
Send current galleon to crab/coal? Settle that on top of coal?

I don't have the game available at the moment, but getting Mining Inc resources is a higher priority than seafood, I think. I agree with bcool that we should settle the "Warrior Pump" city not to make warriors but to capture the iron.

babybluepants said:
Plan to take Bing-Mao and St Nick? Timeline?

I vote that we don't do this. I'm not sure the effort is worth the small discount in epp.

babybluepants said:
Give Roosevelt SM for 110g?

YES!

babybluepants said:
Give Roosevelt Physics and Steel?

If we want him to research something useful for us and shave a turn or three off research, we're going to be gifting him some techs. Not sure which ones though...

babybluepants said:
Palace in Canterbury?

Sounds good to me. How many turns do you think this will take?

Mitchum · Jan 2, 2011

We should plan on gifting Roosevelt up through Ecology as soon as possible so that he can clean up most of the fallout for us. Based on bcool's test game, he should clean up the tiles inside his city's BFC for us, leaving us a lot fewer tiles to scrub in the end.

With our increasing research pace and the fact the Roosevelt has been researching a tech that we already have, I think we'll be lucky to get him to research anything useful in time. Other than Artillery, is there another tech that the AI prefers and might research for us in a useful time frame? Do we think he'll even research Artillery in time if we gift him all of the prerequisite techs?

babybluepants · Jan 2, 2011

Not sure he would do it in time, but we are delaying Rocketry for Plastics / Superconductors. If we want Artillery, I think I should give Physics and Steel right now.

Ecology requires Plastics + Bio or Fission + Bio. Plastics gift opens up a whole lot of potential hurt from him - we'd have to give Steam/AL/Ind/Comb if I'm not mistaken. Fission will be researched quite late, after Plastics/SC + Rocketry. Not sure about this. Might be easier to just build some more workers.

edit: I'm totally ok leaving Mao in St Nick, btw. Saves us a PITA.

babybluepants · Jan 2, 2011

I'm gonna trail in the PPP gradually...

CITIES

Spoiler :

shyuhe · Jan 2, 2011

There's about 30 tiles in Roos's territory that will require removal. Can we OB with him to send our workers into his land to clean up fallout? If we can avoid warring with him, it would help our endgame a lot since we won't have to divert hammers to military (and hammers = wealth/research at this point).

Mitchum · Jan 2, 2011

babybluepants said:
Ecology requires Plastics + Bio or Fission + Bio. Plastics gift opens up a whole lot of potential hurt from him - we'd have to give Steam/AL/Ind/Comb if I'm not mistaken. Fission will be researched quite late, after Plastics/SC + Rocketry. Not sure about this. Might be easier to just build some more workers.

Well, if Roosevelt cleans up just one tile for us it's one less that we have to deal with, right? I still think we should gift him Ecology (maybe the Fission + Bio route is better) so that he can pitch it a little bit. And yes, we'll still need more workers even if we do this.

babybluepants · Jan 2, 2011

We can't scrub in his territory, unless we're at war.

That's actually the main reason behind all the aggressive play here.
Edit: xpost - I agree with Fission route.

Mitchum · Jan 2, 2011

shyuhe said:
There's about 30 tiles in Roos's territory that will require removal. Can we OB with him to send our workers into his land to clean up fallout? If we can avoid warring with him, it would help our endgame a lot since we won't have to divert hammers to military (and hammers = wealth/research at this point).

Based on bcool's early testing, we can't clean up fallout in an AI's territory unless we are at war with them.

EDIT: x-post with bbp.

babybluepants · Jan 2, 2011

Should we maybe re-test this, just in case... :mischief:

Mitchum · Jan 2, 2011

@bbp

Thanks for all of the city details. This is a large portion of your PPP.

Can you also detail your war plans with Gandhi? I assume it's CF, heal, re-declare, land healthy units next to cities, attack but what is the time frame and which cities?

Also, can we clearly indicate which cities we're still planning to settle, when and why?

When do you plan to play?

I'll review your city details later today when I have more time.

Mitchum · Jan 2, 2011

babybluepants said:
Should we maybe re-test this, just in case...

I just tested it and the only thing we can do is build roads/railroads in Roosevelt's territory.

bcool · Jan 2, 2011

1.Send current galleon to crab/coal? Settle that on top of coal?
2.Plan to take Bing-Mao and St Nick? Timeline?
3.Give Roosevelt SM for 110g?
4.Give Roosevelt Physics and Steel?
5.Palace in Canterbury?

1. yes
2. drop it, it was a silly idea
3. yes
4. wait to sell roosy physics and steel for some gold (gives us a little time to see if he goes into war prep mode)
5. yes

And feel free to check that you can't scrub an AI's fallout. You will find the same thing I did.

babybluepants · Jan 2, 2011

Ideally, I should play tmr.

Gandhi: CF / heal / land next to Varanasi - advance towards Lahore / take those two / DoP?

Settling: not sure. Suggestions?

Edit: xpost - I was joking about re-testing, but I knew Mitchum would do it.

bcool · Jan 2, 2011

I see that you suggest tanks in Moscow. I really think we want to not link up oil (or if we do sell it to the AI) because the 2 :yuck:

is not worth it.

If you have to have tanks link up oil for 1 turn and build all the oil based units you can (with OF planned if necessary) then disconnect it.

Fish, is better off working ocean tiles than a 6 hammer no food workshop during 100% wealth. Of course this changes if we go any % science.

Siberia, should max OF with a health building a turn or 2 before starting 3 gorges dam.

Rhiems could build workers after the planned buildings.

small cities with crappy tiles around them and no infrastructure do not need sushi in my opinion (haven't done the numbers but I think it wouldn't pay off)

The Crabbes and bcool island, haiti need coal plants after their factories.

babybluepants · Jan 2, 2011

Good point. What do we use against him then? Inf/arty? I was thinking 2-move is just better, given our timeline and crazy espionage numbers. Movement to frontline can't happen instantly, so I was suggesting we pre-build a bit in anticipation of the attack in 20t.

shyuhe · Jan 2, 2011

If we have to war with him, why don't we avoid giving Roos techs? I know it'll save beakers from researching but it will cost more hammers for military units to fight artillery. I'd prefer to be able to run over him with 10-15 tanks + airships as it'll be cheaper.

Alternatively, do we want to consider warring with paratroopers? It doesn't require oil and if he doesn't have infantry, they will run him over (again with airship support).

bcool · Jan 2, 2011

Also in 8 turns every city with have up to -6

(with a market) or -3

without since fur, ivory, and whales are going obsolete.

I think theaters at least are called for in any cities close to or will be at lowered happiness limits in 8 turns.

edit: this will be mitigated a bit by broadway but that is only +1

without a broadcast tower.

this also means that Radio (for eiffel tower and rock and roll) will be very tempting after Plastics.

This also means the 2nd war with Gandhi needs to be surgical. I think moving spies in to inspire city revolts in our targeted cities is a good idea too during the cease fire. There is at least one spy in Beijing we don't need there anymore.

babybluepants · Jan 2, 2011

^^ That requires Flight, doesn't it? Also extra beakers... We've been back and forth about giving him Phys+Steel, because we don't really wanna boost him. I'm on the fence - artillery is 1t of extra research. There's also the possibility that he goes into war prep early. He built a significant army for his war with Mao, which we ended some time ago, and he's presumably sitting on big unit cost.

Edit: xpost w bcool. Yes, Radio would be next - Superconductors beeline. The war with Gandhi: we should capture Varanasi and Lahore in 2t. I'd stop conquering after that. Kinda hoping he moves some of the Varanasi troops to Madras - they've been back and forth.

bcool · Jan 2, 2011

Let's not give him the techs, he could go into war prep anytime now. especially if we get him to annoyed with another DoW on his friend Gandhi.

Maybe we trade him the techs for gold if there is a good opportunity (300+ gold) and he is already teching them but otherwise no.

SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

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