Great People improvements

@ OP:

suggest picking up EUI (enhanced user interface mod) - scrolling over a tile gives very specific information about what the improvement, including Great Person tile improvement, will give from the tile yield.

@ beetle: If you only have 1 horse/cow/sheep in range of the city, I feel that a stable isn't worth the investment but acknowledge that it's more player preference than indisputable strategy, with the X-factor being how much you plan on utilizing the unit-production bonus in that city.

Furthermore, you have to read the fine print when considering planting Great Person improvements on any tile with a resource. The thing to look for is whether the prerequisite is "improved source of..." or "quarry/pasture/etc." A great person tile improvement counts as a resource tile with an improvement, but obviously not as a quarry/mine/pasture/etc. Examples:

-the stone circles pantheon applies to "quarries," so an academy won't add the 2 faith.
-Attila's production bonus applies to "pastures" so an academy won't add the bonus hammer.
-circuses require an "improved horse or ivory" so an academy WILL unlock the building on a horse or ivory, and WILL provide the strategic resources of horses, but WILL NOT grant the ivory luxury.

Keep in mind also that some buildings are unlocked (buildable) when you have an improved resource of a certain kind (like pasture on horses, sheep or cows will unlock stable in that city), but the improvement is not required to keep that building's bonus after the building is built.

In the case of a Stable, the requirement to build a stable is "City must have at least one of these resources [horse, sheep or cow] improved with a Pasture" but once the stable is built, "each source of horses, sheep and cow worked by this City produce +1 production" (even if the source is not improved with a pasture, and even if the pasture that allowed you to build the stable is no longer there (i.e., it's been replaced with a GP tile improvement, pillaged or stolen by an enemy citadel)).

Stone Works, Forge and Mint all work the same way.

The Disciple said:

This is somewhat different to my gameplay. I often tend to oscillate my main cities between production and food focus. With 70% time spend producing, and 30% getting more food. Usually, I'm rushing wonders, or building an army on a war footing, or building infrastructure. During these times I'm on production focus - and this means I get a lot of GE. Sometimes, I micro this into an extreme hammer focus, by producing less food than reqd. and drawing down my food supply, for a few turns.

This means that there are lull's in construction, when I really need to increase my pop. before the next major project. Often, hitting civil service is my time for my pop. to bloom. So I ramp it up ASAP, then get straight back into production. I've always prioritised engineering specialisations though - often building my Capital on the flat so I can get Windmill to get them out faster.

Mid to late game, most of my cities will have switched their focus. Often with all the specialist positions maxed out, and churning out GP's. Especially if I go for Freedom Policy. Commerce, Freedom, and Rationalism, with Statue of Liberty is usually nice. This means that each specialist is producing +2 +1 and +2 on top of their base yield. Often, I will have 4 cities, and each with their own specialisations. A science city next to hill, and lots of jungle. A commerce city (often the Capital). A Military/production city (usually my 2nd city on flat, coast, river). A culture city, either my 3rd or 4th city, or the capital. I usually plant all my GP's.

I've always been planting my GE's, and it's not uncommon for me to have a city with 3 or 4 Manufactories. With this level of production it is possible to turn out wonders in 10 or 15 turns. I often end up on a war footing throughout the late game, so maxing out hammers is usually what wins me games.


Granted though, I'm still playing King (5) on vanilla. Will step up to Emperor (6) and then BNW after mastering this. Will try your recommendations in my next game and see how it goes.

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This is different than the conventional high end wisdom of the game, which is to always set your city to production focus, and then lock food tiles.

This accomplishes the same goal you have, but never stopping growing, so the end result is that in later eras, you can have a city that churns out wonders in 10-15 turns WITHOUT manufactories, because of additional population gained from additional turns growing. That doesn't mean I work no hammers, it means that I work intelligent hammers. I will work almost all pastures (stables giving them an extra hammer makes them 2 food 3 hammer or 1 food 4 hammer for most of the game) and I work lux mines (the 3 hammer 2 gold + possible pantheon ones), but other than that, I am really pushing 4 food or 3 food 1 hammer tiles as much as possible. This is to make it so my population is high enough come Education for me to work both university slots right away. After that, you want enough growth to be working both of those slots, and still be growing so you can work the Public School and the Research lab slot. All of this is in addition to the guilds which you really ought to be working as well. Most of my engineer slots (prior to secularism) will only get worked when my best option is a 3 hammer tile. In that case, a 2 hammer 3 GPP slot seems better to me, because I WILL take one or 2 engineers at the end game, but I don't want a ton of them floating around killing my great scientist spawns.

In my games, there's really no room for not growing. You end up paying for it down the line with having lower population, less science, less culture and less hammers. No one wants a 15 pop capital in the industrial era, you might have been able to get some early wonders that way, but there's no way you're going to be able to keep up on the additional hammer requirements down the line.

ShakaKhan said:

It's the same trade-off as a wet (fresh water) plains or grass tile, the granary bonus still applies with an academy. So planting an academy on…

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The primary point is not how many yields one is giving up or for how long (e.g., 1 until Fertilizer, 2 after) but having the tile be self-supporting. Which is to say you really, really want your GP tile to have 2+ base food. GP on a hill or plains means you have to make up the food somewhere, and early food is a sparse commodity.

The secondary point comes from early food being a sparse commodity. So the opportunity cost of planting on a wet tile is something you pay for until Fertilizer, by which time you are probably better off bulbing than planting.

This is why I would argue that planting on Bananas is better than planting on plains or a hill.

beetle said:

The primary point is not how many yields one is giving up or for how long (e.g., 1 until Fertilizer, 2 after) but having the tile be self-supporting. Which is to say you really, really want your GP tile to have 2+ base food. GP on a hill or plains means you have to make up the food somewhere, and early food is a sparse commodity.

The secondary point comes from early food being a sparse commodity. So the opportunity cost of planting on a wet tile is something you pay for until Fertilizer, by which time you are probably better off bulbing than planting.

This is why I would argue that planting on Bananas is better than planting on plains or a hill.

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You lose 2 science from the bananas. 2 science that is multiplied by NC, Observatory, Universities, etc.

No bueno. It's never a good idea to plant on bananas.

beetle said:

The primary point is not how many yields one is giving up or for how long (e.g., 1 until Fertilizer, 2 after) but having the tile be self-supporting. Which is to say you really, really want your GP tile to have 2+ base food. GP on a hill or plains means you have to make up the food somewhere, and early food is a sparse commodity.

The secondary point comes from early food being a sparse commodity. So the opportunity cost of planting on a wet tile is something you pay for until Fertilizer, by which time you are probably better off bulbing than planting.

This is why I would argue that planting on Bananas is better than planting on plains or a hill.

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Not really. If you have a size three city with granary and the best tiles to be working are 1.) a farmed wet plains with wheat, 2.) a farmed wet plains tile, and 3.) a farmed wet grassland tile, it doesn't matter which one you put the academy on -

--if you put the academy on the wheat, you will then be working:
wheat/academy (3F/1P/BEAKERS) + farmed plains (3F/1P) + farmed grass (4F) which totals: 10 food+2 hammers+BEAKERS

--if you put the academy on the plains, you will then be working:
farmed wheat (5F/1P) + academy plains (1F/1P/BEAKERS) + farmed grass (4F) which totals: 10food+2hammers+BEAKERS

if you put the academy on the grassland, you will then be working:
farmed wheat (5F/1P) + farmed plains (3F/1P) + academy grass (2F/BEAKERS) which totals: 10food+2hammers+BEAKERS

Maybe it's more comfortable for you if you know that the tile is self-feeding, but you can't argue that (10F/2P/BEAKERS) > (10F/2P/BEAKERS)

And the whole argument of bananas losing their research bonus from jungle is derived from the argument of banana plantation yield vs. banana jungle yield, and we're never going to reach consensus on that.

ShakaKhan said:

@ OP:

suggest picking up EUI (enhanced user interface mod) - scrolling over a tile gives very specific information about what the improvement, including Great Person tile improvement, will give from the tile yield.

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Can't do that. I play to enter my games in the Hall of Fame. As far as I understand it, mods are currently not allowed.

And WOW... I ask one little question and a whole tangent conversation stretches off from it.

Tzar Sasha said:

Can't do that. I play to enter my games in the Hall of Fame. As far as I understand it, mods are currently not allowed.

And WOW... I ask one little question and a whole tangent conversation stretches off from it.

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EUI is allowed because its not packaged like a mod, but a DLC. Pretty much everyone uses it.

Chum said:

No bueno. It's never a good idea to plant on bananas.

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I still disagree. If you don't have cows/sheep/deer/horse, then planting on bananas is better than planting on a hill or wet grasslands. I would even pick banana over wet plain.

ShakaKhan said:

Not really. If you have a size three city with granary and the best tiles to be working are 1.) a farmed wet plains with wheat, 2.) a farmed wet plains tile, and 3.) a farmed wet grassland tile, it doesn't matter which one you put the academy on

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I would not put the academy on any of those three tiles. This particular dilemma disappears as soon as the city grows 1 pop.

Yes, planting on plains instead of grassland still costs the same food. The point is that planting on plains (or worse, a hill) means you always have to make up the food somewhere. So either slower growth or not working a mine that a self-feeding academy would permit.

And the whole argument of bananas losing their research bonus from jungle is derived from the argument of banana plantation yield vs. banana jungle yield, and we're never going to reach consensus on that.

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That is good point, but I think that even if you believe banana plantation is worse than unimproved banana, that an academy on banana can still be a good choice.

beetle said:

I would not put the academy on any of those three tiles. This particular dilemma disappears as soon as the city grows 1 pop.

Yes, planting on plains instead of grassland still costs the same food. The point is that planting on plains (or worse, a hill) means you always have to make up the food somewhere. So either slower growth or not working a mine that a self-feeding academy would permit.

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OK, so substitute wet hill for wet plains in the above example, and the results will be that all three scenarios drop 1 food and add 1 hammer, and the yields will once again be identical no matter where you plant it. Planting on any tile which you would otherwise farm, with or without resource, removes two food from the city's potential in order to add 8+beakers to the city. Planting on any tile that you would otherwise mine, including strategic resource tiles, removes two hammers from the city's potential in order to add 8+ beakers. Planting on tiles which you would otherwise TP removes 2-4gold and 1 beaker from the city's potential in order to add 8+ beakers. Pastures vary a little more but it's either trading 1F/1P or 2P (still get the stable bonus) in order to add 8+beakers.

Food is by far the highest priority early and less consequential late game, so Babylon should never plant on a hill with their turn 16 GS, but late game (but still pre-bulbing) academies replaces wet grass farms and not mines.

beetle said:

That is good point, but I think that even if you believe banana plantation is worse than unimproved banana, that an academy on banana can still be a good choice.

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Again, don't see a consensus being reached regarding this. The one area that he does have you is that by not planting on bananas allows for the maximum amount of beakers not directly derived from population.

Chum said:

This is different than the conventional high end wisdom of the game, which is to always set your city to production focus, and then lock food tiles.

This accomplishes the same goal you have, but never stopping growing, so the end result is that in later eras, you can have a city that churns out wonders in 10-15 turns WITHOUT manufactories, because of additional population gained from additional turns growing. That doesn't mean I work no hammers, it means that I work intelligent hammers. I will work almost all pastures (stables giving them an extra hammer makes them 2 food 3 hammer or 1 food 4 hammer for most of the game) and I work lux mines (the 3 hammer 2 gold + possible pantheon ones), but other than that, I am really pushing 4 food or 3 food 1 hammer tiles as much as possible. This is to make it so my population is high enough come Education for me to work both university slots right away. After that, you want enough growth to be working both of those slots, and still be growing so you can work the Public School and the Research lab slot. All of this is in addition to the guilds which you really ought to be working as well. Most of my engineer slots (prior to secularism) will only get worked when my best option is a 3 hammer tile. In that case, a 2 hammer 3 GPP slot seems better to me, because I WILL take one or 2 engineers at the end game, but I don't want a ton of them floating around killing my great scientist spawns.

In my games, there's really no room for not growing. You end up paying for it down the line with having lower population, less science, less culture and less hammers. No one wants a 15 pop capital in the industrial era, you might have been able to get some early wonders that way, but there's no way you're going to be able to keep up on the additional hammer requirements down the line.

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Thanks for the info, this really helps. BTW, it would be nice to be able to benchmark growth through game replays. Is there a tool for doing this?

Usually by the Industrial Era I have a 20 to 25 pop. Capital with 16 pop. in my three other primary cities. For reference, in my current game, it is 1982. I have 29 in Washington and am producing 150 science, 360 culture. Washington has 1 Manufactory, 5 Landmarks, 4 Academies, and 1 Customs House. New York is on the Coast, with 17 pop., 3 Manufactories, and can build a Battleship or B17 every 2 turns.

In my other Major cities I have Boston, with 19 pop., with 1 Manufactory, producing B17's in 5 turns. Sydney has 21 pop., 1 Manufactory, and 2 Landmarks. I have most of the world wonders, including the Sydney Opera House - in Sydney, and The Statue of Liberty - in New York .


My neighbours are Japan, China, and Briton. I've pacified them and left them with 2 cities each. But killed Napoleon (he was too much trouble). I keep them around for the research agreements.


During the Medieval Era I was in 5th and then 4th place. Though after a prolonged war with Catherine, I knocked her down to 4th place, Moved up to 3rd and then 2nd place in the Modern Era - and have now recently surpassed Arabia and sitting in 1st position. I'm neck and neck with Alexander for both policy acquisition and CS alliances - and I've liberated a few CS to even the diplomatic balance.

Recently started a war with Alexander. Totally owning the sea, and sitting off his coast with a carrier group loaded with B17's. Was thinking of an economic war to slow down Alex - and then finish with Cultural victory. I'm America, and my Policy order was Tradition, Piety, Commerce, Freedom, and now Honour. My average policy rate has been 10 turns per policy throughout the entire game.

The Greek military is strongest, both in numbers and technology. Alex has Liberty, Piety, Patronage, and Autocracy. He is in the future era - without Uranium.

Unfortunately, my science has been slower than usual which did hurt me a bit. I've changed to Hammer focus with manual food selection, as you suggested, and can see a real difference. Will try this throughout the next game and see how I go.

The Disciple said:

Thanks for the info, this really helps. BTW, it would be nice to be able to benchmark growth through game replays. Is there a tool for doing this?

Usually by the Industrial Era I have a 20 to 25 pop. Capital with 16 pop. in my three other primary cities. For reference, in my current game, it is 1982. I have 29 in Washington and am producing 150 science, 360 culture. Washington has 1 Manufactory, 5 Landmarks, 4 Academies, and 1 Customs House. New York is on the Coast, with 17 pop., 3 Manufactories, and can build a Battleship or B17 every 2 turns.

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I'm just going to go thru old screenshots for you of games I've had where my empire is near your timeframe.

Stockholm, 1864 - 30 pop. 1 academy, one holy site, no other GP improvements. 338 science just from this city.

Thebes 1936. Honestly, this city is disgusting and is not a benchmark for anything. But it is a monster.

Komodo - I THINK this was my 2nd or 3rd city on an Attila playthru, judging from the colors. But again, no great person improvements, and the city is just ungodly good.

I don't know if there's a good benchmark for "have this pop at this point," so much of that is dirt depending on how much food you have and how many caravans you can divert to it, but the general rule of thumb is the bigger, the better. Even liberty is going to want to grow all their cities as much as possible once happiness is no longer an issue with ideologies.

Grow grow grow. You'll have more pop to work everything you want and still be growing.

ShakaKhan said:

OK, so substitute wet hill for wet plains in the above example, and the results will be that all three scenarios drop 1 food and add 1 hammer, and the yields will once again be identical no matter where you plant it. Planting on any tile which you would otherwise farm, with or without resource, removes two food from the city's potential in order to add 8+beakers to the city. Planting on any tile that you would otherwise mine, including strategic resource tiles, removes two hammers from the city's potential in order to add 8+ beakers.

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Yes, planting loses 2 yields. That is not the point!

Food is by far the highest priority early...

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This is the point, and the reason why pre-fertilizer you don’t want to plant on a wet tile, and the reason why planting on dry flat grassland is good and planting on dry flat plains is bad.

My favorite place to put an academy is actually on dry marshland**, for the reasons that beetle has already eloquently stated, but with the added reason that it saves my worker the effort of having to unmarshify it (or whatever is the term for turning it into grassland).

**obviously does not apply to the Dutch

fyar said:

My favorite place to put an academy is actually on dry marshland**, for the reasons that beetle has already eloquently stated, but with the added reason that it saves my worker the effort of having to unmarshify it (or whatever is the term for turning it into grassland).

**obviously does not apply to the Dutch

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Grassifying?

beetle said:

Also folks, remember to build your Stable before planting on Cows, Sheep, or Horses -- if you only have one resource that qualifies for the Stable. Same thing for Forge and Iron.



I am curious as to why you put so much distance between Cows and Sheep? I don’t like planting on forested deer, but it’s a free chops, so maybe not bad either way?


Look at it in terms of raw yield. Banana+GP is great! Generally, one is only planting early, 100 turns before you would be getting beakers from jungle. I think it is okay.

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Should be fine for Iron Forge+Horse Stables, just not Cow or Sheep stables.