What is the best scientific civ for pure science?

My current epic game (Monarch / Russia / Large map / Continents) is leading me to believe that Russia may be the best civ for pure Science. There are a couple of particularly good synergies with the Russian trait combo / UU that suggest this:

First of all, Expansionist typically gives several free techs in the Ancient Age, which is an huge Science boost during the age that Scientific normally doesn't help you much in. I only ended up getting two (plus a couple of free cities), but combined with getting Monarchy for free after I researched Philosophy first, and a bit of trading, I was the tech leader. I researched Literature and got to work on building all those cheap Libraries. I was fortunate also to get an SGL, which I used to rush the Pyramids for faster growth.

Second of all, the Russian Cossack (which I love now, contrary to a previous post in one of the "best UU threads" where I foolishly dismissed it without having tried it) has a great late GA. Once in the Middle Ages I beelined for Military Tradition, trading for Monotheism, Theology and Education and getting favorable gpt deals all the time. Normally I tend to use my GA for a huge military blitz, but this one timed perfectly with building all my Universities early. I was able to build unis in all my core cities in part of the GA, giving again a huge boost to research. I was still leading in tech and raking in the gold.

I'm now into the early Industrial age, working on Sci Method for the usual ToE / Hoover Dam move, which I should get no problem, having the tech lead and a prebuild. This should be an easy win via Space Race, or pretty much any other method, other than cultural.

The standard suggestion, AFAIK, is that the Scientific / Commercial combination may be the best, however this doesn't really address early Science output. Scientific / Expansionist lets you get the lead early and combined with quickly-built Universities in the GA makes a very powerful trait combo.

What's your opinion?

It strongly depends on playing style, difficulty and map settings.I agree on traits; scientific is a must (and it would be even more if the scientific GA would work as intended)...the second trait...now, expansionist is fine as you described.Commercial (extra commerce) and Seafaring (also extra commerce plus better contacs on water rich maps) are good, too.The effects of the other traits on science are more indirect, but can be as huge as direct effects.For example, agricultural make you grow much faster (which will lead to more research of course), if you have access to fresh water and militaristic is helpful on higher difficulty levels - here war is usually a better option to keep up with the AI.Extorting techs for peace is only a special way of "research"

Best civs: Russia (voted), Sumeria, Greek, Korea, Byzantine, England, Portugal (best to worse IMHO)

EDIT: If someone wonders why I skipped some scientific civs and add England and Portugal instead...I rate them over civs with sci+mil/ind/rel, because I think the stacking commerce bonus of Englands traits and the flexibility of Portugal in terms of making contacts are very beneficial for science.

In the long run i think Greece and Korea is the best. Russia do get a good start but later in the game greece will catch up with its commercial bonus.

I do agree about England they are good for it even though they are not scientific. My top three would be: Greece, Korea, Russia

Personally I don't understand why anyone voted Greece over Korea. Korea's UU gives you greater flexibility triggering a GA. Greece is just as likely to trigger an accidental despotism GA.

Kaboth said:

Personally I don't understand why anyone voted Greece over Korea. Korea's UU gives you greater flexibility triggering a GA. Greece is just as likely to trigger an accidental despotism GA.

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The reason I voted Greece over Korea, is the title of the thread. To me, a pure research game is one where you aren't warring, and are completely devoted to research. Greece gets to build a 20 shield pikeman for close to half the game. If I'm focusing solely on science, I don't want to have to build spearmen to defend my cities, which are easily overrun by swordsmen. Greek Hoplites have a nice advantage over swordmen, and can hold their own against Immortals. This lets me keep my cities safe with less troops, which means that I pay less for support costs in Republic, and lets me devote more shields to infrastructure.

Korea has a great UU, and as you noted, it can be triggered any time from Metalurgy on. However, if you aren't planning on going to war (ie, pure research), you won't get a GA from your UU, you'll get it from wonders. In that case, Korea's UU is wasted, while Greece's UU is still a very useful early defender.

It all depends on the map. On a Pangaea, Greece or Korea (I prefer the Hoplite to the Hwach'a, but that's personal preference), but on an Archipelago map, easily the Byzantines. I'm not exactly sure which is better on a Continents map, but I voted the Greeks.

In general:

Greece/Byzantium/Korea - Russia - Sumeria - England - Ottomans/Persia - Babylon - Germany - Portugal

I voted greece, but I realized Babylon's reduced anarchy could potentially be the best.

Greece:
they have a good early defensive unit, which means that the AI will think 5 times before declares a war.

Scientific along with the commercial trait is always a good match. Industrious is also useful together with scientific.

Hi.

For me it also depends on which dificult level you play. For exemple, believe or not, on low dificult level (until Monarch) the Egiptians (religious / industrious) could be the more powerfull combination for research: low civil disorder (cheaper temples/cathedrals) and faster worker tasks.
I agree playing with Russia means a boost in the early ages, not only on research but also in cultural expansion.
My oppinion (in conclusion): For pure research, the tribe you choose could not be so important than the way you play (number/size of cities, governement type, number of workers, warmonguering/developer, etc...).
Only my oppinion.

IMO popping out techs from goody-huts doesn't really fit for the description "pure science". I would call it "luck"

Kaboth said:

Personally I don't understand why anyone voted Greece over Korea. Korea's UU gives you greater flexibility triggering a GA. Greece is just as likely to trigger an accidental despotism GA.

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When I think pure science I don't count Golden Ages. So since greece has the best defender I chose them.

I voted greece, but I think babylon has one strong advantage that you can change governments to democracy, having less corruption, while if I was the Greeks, I would stay in republic.

Greece is that civ!

I voted for Russia: get ahead with the expansionistic trait, stay ahead with scientific trait. It's cool that they have a UU that is especially effective if you get it while you're ahead in tech, blitz is devastating if you're using them against pikemen or musketmen.

On the other hand, the commercial and seafaring traits are nice for the extra trade.

Commercial is overrated. Sure you get more income, but that's not going to help when you hit the 4-turn research limit.

I'd rather have agricultural, industrious, or expansionist to get an early boost when techs still take a long time to research.

if you hit the 4 turn research limit i think is time to move up to another dificulty level.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts! I ended up winning my game by diplo, 6-1, 1 abstention after getting my third Modern Age tech. It didn't feel that satisfying but the Space Race was going to be a tedious formality. I think I'm done with Monarch so my next game will be my first at Emperor I did hit the four-turn research limit in the last part of the Industrial Age.

Re. the actual topic, I think my phrasing of "pure science" might have skewed things a bit. I wasn't necessarily trying to imply a peaceful strategy. I try for a balanced approach, I just wanted to focus the question on getting ahead in techs, rather than just which scientific civ is best all-around.

I'm a little surprised that Greece is over 10 times as popular as Korea, with the same traits. The Hoplite is nice for early turtling and infra building but the late Korean GA can be a huge opportunity to leap ahead later. I think Commercial is a bit overrated too but it might matter more at higher levels, I don't know.

aaglo said:

IMO popping out techs from goody-huts doesn't really fit for the description "pure science". I would call it "luck"

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True, it is luck, but you almost always get several techs. I think I was unlucky to only get 2 in my game, yet it still helped a lot. And if you don't get techs you might get Settlers, which help a lot too.

France is the best gentleman
although not scientific is France when played right the best scientific one you can imagine.
late GA industrial for building the improvements and commercial

Russia for early sprint and great chance of early scientific great leaders.