Reworking nukes

Currently we have 2 options with nukes, Advanced Nukes and No Nukes. My idea is to integrate Advanced Nukes and make them mandatory, possibly leaving only No Nukes option.

At the moment we have the following nukes:

• A-Bomb (which isn't really a nuke, it's a bomber unit)
• ICBM (default nukes)
• Tactical Nukes (default nukes)
• MRBM
• IRBM
• Hydrogen Bomb
• Peacemaker
• Tactical Fusi
• Fusion Nova
• YAM

ICBM and Tactical Nukes are going to stay, although I would move Tactical Nukes to Jet Propulsion (from Advanced Rocketry). This is because MRBM are currently available at Jet Propulsion but since they require Warhead Factory, they can't really be built until Advanced Rocketry. So my idea is to remove MRBM and leave only Tactial Nukes, moving them in place of MRBM. I would also remove Peacemaker and YAM (seriously, nobody ever used them), and Fusion Nova (terraforming a 3x3 square into water isn't really something that fits the game). I'm still unsure about Tactical Fusi, but maybe I should remove it for the same reason as Fusion Nova. I'm going to remove YAM because AI doesn't probably know how to use it, and there's really no point in having such a unit. I'll just comment out these units so if someone wants to reactivate them on their personal version, they'll be able to do so.

So we'll end up with

• A-Bomb
• ICBM
• Tactical Nukes
• IRBM
• Hydrogen Bomb
• (Tactical Fusi) --> maybe

These will be included in the game as default, and there will be a "no nukes" option (although I don't think it's necessary: with my latest changes and with some more changes I have in mind, you should really have no problem in playing with nukes).
I'm unsure about nukes on subs. Right now you can only carry nukes with limited range on subs. But current real SLBMs have almost unlimited range as ICBMs; I don't want to introduce a new kind of nuke, so regarding subs I'll probably leave things as they are now (i.e. you can load TN & IRBM).
Opinions?

Edit: Note for Vokarya: removing YAM might be a problem for Mind Uploading tech, which has only 2 tricks (Mind Storage and YAM). I suppose we should think about something else or move something from some other tech to Mind Uploading.

I'd like to keep the Peace Maker as the Transhuman Era doomsday weapon. I can totally get behind removing the MRBM, the YAM and the fusion nukes. I feel like we should have some Transhuman Era nuclear weapons as upgrades of the Modern Era ones, but not the ones that we currently have as they've been made just too complicated.

Is the only thing that's special about the Hydrogen Bomb is that it has a blast radius of 2? That one feels like it's not as necessary as the rest. And can we find a name for the IRBM that's not so acronymic? ICBM at least has popular currency; I have to think about what IRBM means most of the time, and I don't think that's a very good sign.

Do you want to do anything with the biological missiles as well, or just the nuclear ones?

If necessary, I'm OK to keep peacekeeper. Hydrogen bomb also is not immobile like icbm. I like that unit because thermonuclear bombs were a significant improvement, so I'd like to keep it. Irbm isn't a perfect name but I can't find another one. Biological missiles seem more or less ok to me.

45°38'N-13°47'E;13426524 said:

If necessary, I'm OK to keep peacekeeper. Hydrogen bomb also is not immobile like icbm. I like that unit because thermonuclear bombs were a significant improvement, so I'd like to keep it. Irbm isn't a perfect name but I can't find another one. Biological missiles seem more or less ok to me.

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What about just Nuclear Missile for the IRBM?

For Mind Uploading: something that exists but we're not currently using is X free Specialists in all cities but it has to be a particular type, not just any specialist. We could put +1 free Scientist in all cities on the Mind Uploading tech. (It's how Derivatives granted +1 free Merchant before that tech was taken out.)

Both sound good to me, I'll change the nuke name on next update

This definitely sounds like something I could get behind.

Would it be possible to have the Fusion missiles be a 'clean' superweapon instead? That is, it does the massive damage to infrastructure and ground units like typical nukes, but doesn't cause Fallout or etc?

I like the idea of a fusion nuke, but the permanent water terraforming - and with no way of reverting from water-to-land - is a bit... Well, kind of does make it worth removing.

Rezca said:

Would it be possible to have the Fusion missiles be a 'clean' superweapon instead? That is, it does the massive damage to infrastructure and ground units like typical nukes, but doesn't cause Fallout or etc?

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Mmmm, possible I suppose it's possible but I'm not sure I'm in favour of it, especially if we leave Peacekeeper in, since we would have some transhuman nukes and one causes pollution while the other not. And anyway I think there should be some downside in using such huge weapons and right now fallout is the only one.

Rezca said:

I like the idea of a fusion nuke, but the permanent water terraforming - and with no way of reverting from water-to-land - is a bit... Well, kind of does make it worth removing.

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I'm thinking about removing it exactly for this reason, because it's a bit... [weird].

What if we do something like:

• A-Bomb
• ICBM/Hydrogen Bomb (immobile, unlimited range, blast radius 2) (merging them) - available at Satellites, requires Warhead Factory; I would leave ICBM name
• Tactical Nuke (can be loaded on subs) - Available at Jet Propulsion, doesn't require Warhead Factory
• IRBM --> Nuclear Missile (can be loaded on subs) - Available at Adv. Rocketry, requires Warhead Factory
• Peacemaker

Both TN and NM will be able to get loaded on subs at Guided Weapons (when Missile Sub becomes available).

Thinking about it, I would just cut down Fusion Nova and Tactical Fusi; beside the fact that AI doesn't know how to use them, there's the fact that they're kind of a way to cheat. If you've almost finished a game and you want to cut down your rival population or culture you just fire some Fusion... I don't like the idea, sounds like cheating. There's enough you can do in this sense with "normal" (see above) nukes, if you're willing to accept consequences.

I like the idea of Fusion weaponry, but if it's affecting gameplay mechanics in a negative way then there's no need for them to stay, agreed.

I can't really think of any other possible drawbacks that could be paired with a Fusion missile that wouldn't be as bad if not worse than the Land-to-Water transmutation. Cool concept for a weapon, but not working with AND.

At least the BBM and Plaguebringer are still in though ^^
Nasty things they are, but I've always looked forward to using them for some twisted reason

45°38'N-13°47'E;13426428 said:

(...)
I would also remove Peacemaker and YAM (seriously, nobody ever used them)
(...)

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And why not? Because the game rarely last that long, thus the whole trans-human era could be removed

The YAM is a very interesting nuke, which should be fixed instead of axing. A few ideas about it:

• limit its range and remove national limit, thus one could capture only cities that are near the border or reached by Subs
• don't kill the units instantly, instead convert a random % to the attacker, some to barbarians and leave some to the original
• get a better name: Psychic Dominator for example
• teach the AI

Sogroon said:

And why not? Because the game rarely last that long, thus the whole trans-human era could be removed

The YAM is a very interesting nuke, which should be fixed instead of axing. A few ideas about it:

• limit its range and remove national limit, thus one could capture only cities that are near the border or reached by Subs
• don't kill the units instantly, instead convert a random % to the attacker, some to barbarians and leave some to the original
• get a better name: Psychic Dominator for example
• teach the AI

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In a few words, I simply think it's not worth the effort. Too much work for something that's not going to be used.


Edit: personally I always play with Mastery Victory so I always reach Transhuman era. And I've used those nukes just a couple of times for testing purposes.

Nuke topics has been active for quite some time.Is there timetable to solve it?
Thx

Hrvoje193 said:

Nuke topics has been active for quite some time.Is there timetable to solve it?
Thx

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I've already introduced the above mentioned changes some revisions ago. There's still some work I'd like to do on how AI uses nukes, but that will come at a later time when I'll have more free time.

45°38'N-13°47'E;13467435 said:

I've already introduced the above mentioned changes some revisions ago. There's still some work I'd like to do on how AI uses nukes, but that will come at a later time when I'll have more free time.

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Great news, but can you please elaborate what has changed?At the beginning of the thread you mentioned 2 solutions: No nukes or modified nukes.
And just one more info please: Version in main download section is up to date, or I have to use repository?

Hrvoje193 said:

And just one more info please: Version in main download section is up to date, or I have to use repository?

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The main download version is updated automatically every 24 hours from the latest SVN repository. So the main download is always up to date.

Afforess said:

The main download version is updated automatically every 24 hours from the latest SVN repository. So the main download is always up to date.

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Thx, Afforess.

Hrvoje193 said:

Great news, but can you please elaborate what has changed?At the beginning of the thread you mentioned 2 solutions: No nukes or modified nukes.
And just one more info please: Version in main download section is up to date, or I have to use repository?

Click to expand...

Advanced nukes has been removed and some of the advanced nukes have been included in default game. There's still a No Nukes option but if you don't check it you'll get some of the old Advanced Nukes. I've removed Fusion weapons and YAM.

So the peacemaker's still in then?