I sure hope you like paying for your mods

trader/warrior · Apr 28, 2015

One of the funnier things in all of this was seeing the whole pc master race crowd go through such a collective identity-crisis over Lord GabeN abandoning them. :lol:

sherbz · Apr 28, 2015

trader/warrior said:
One of the funnier things in all of this was seeing the whole pc master race crowd go through such a collective identity-crisis over Lord GabeN abandoning them.

It was a bit like a pack of wolves turning in on themselves with some of the pack tearing each other into shreds.

cybrxkhan · Apr 28, 2015

Here's an article that interviewed several prominent modders and their reactions to the whole mess. Though these are only a small sample of the modding "leaders" in the Skyrim community, I think it's a nice insight into what they were thinking, given how some people have been saying paid mods is good for modders, or that going against paid mods was like going against modders in general, without asking modders what they thought.

Overall, their opinions seemed to be generally negative towards the idea of paid mods, or at least a lot of caution and reservation, and that they were for the most part not particularly interested in charging for mods even if they had a good opportunity to. One even gave me the impression that they felt it was an affront to their honor. A lot of their points were the one that Chesko - one of the star modders roped by Valve into being the guinea pigs for the paid mod system - brought up when he decided to ditch the system. Some did say that the community overreacted in certain aspects, and I'm inclined to agree - I suppose it's just the nature of the internet, but it seems like it was difficult to communicate the legitimate concerns to people who were supporting the paid mods (including the media).

And some random but relevant quotes, in my opinion:

“Releasing a mod today up behing a paywall is just too much of a hassle.

You have to have permission if you are using work from other mods

You probably have to work alone

You need commercial licenses for any paid 3rd party software used to make your mod

You must conform to the strict file structure of Steam Workshop(this limits mods like ENB’s for example)

You need to take into consideration that, as of right now, you cannot take down your mod if you put it up for sale.

”

“The key thing to understand is that this is a highly specific and unique scenario. Modding Skyrim was forced to be unpaid for three tears. This is a see change while we are just getting good at it. Had this started on a new game, it would have been ‘fine’. I probably never would have started modding, but it would have been ‘fine’.”

"...the treatment of some of the modders by the community as horrifying and disgusting. Several well respected figures have been driven away entirely, and many more will be sure to follow. It seems they have been exploited more than anyone else, and it is not the place of the community to judge them for wanting money for their work."

Sonereal · Apr 28, 2015

I agree with the last one. Chesko, the guy behind Frostfall, was treated terribly, and I'm sure other modders had abuse heaped upon them from both directions. The negativity was extremely unfortunate.

cybrxkhan · Apr 29, 2015

Scarlet_King said:
I agree with the last one. Chesko, the guy behind Frostfall, was treated terribly, and I'm sure other modders had abuse heaped upon them from both directions. The negativity was extremely unfortunate.

Chesko even later more or less denounced the system and tried pulling his mod(s) off the paid system even though he didn't need to. And in his statements he even said that he already had a lot of reservations about the whole affair anyways so it wasn't like he was a money-hungry traitor.

Though I of course don't think he should've joined up in the first place, as a modder I can also understand why he did what he did. If PI came to me offering to do the same for my CKII mods I probably would've signed up without any thought about the consequences. It would've pretty much been the best thing other than actually having my mods integrated into the game and being hired as a dev.

I have to admire Chesko for his professionalism throughout the whole ordeal which some of the other modders who had tomatoes thrown at them couldn't manage (and understandably so), though I've been told that a few of those modders who were already kind of unpleasant to begin with even before this all (such as the guys behind SkyUI or Midas Magic) so this whole thing just invited a lot more mudslinging between them and their users.

thecrazyscot · Apr 30, 2015

Cross post from the other thread since we seem to have 2.

A case for paid mods by Derek Paxton (FFH)

Even without the breakout success that would allow a modder to quit his or her job, a modest income still rewards people for their work and contribution. Modding communities are littered with promising but abandoned mods, great ideas never finished because real life got in the way. Being able to sell your mod is a powerful incentive to finish the mod and to make sure it remains working and bug-free as the base game is updated.

...

With paid mods this problem goes away. Game developers have a clear business case for not only supporting mods, but making sure that their game is the most open and mod-friendly game available. They want to attract top tier modders.

As a side effect, the addition of better modding capabilities in the base game will improve the quality of the free mods and our own ability to tweak our games.

...

Imagine the mods we will get in a world where game developers have a strong business incentive to support mods, and the best modders are able to pursue mods full-time and contract with artists, voice actors and musicians to make their mods better.

We will still have free mods. Modders will still be making things just to share them. The prices will need a little time to settle and there will be a big difference between the free mods (with the occasional big mod for free) and premium mods (with the occasion undeserving small mod someone is trying to charge for).

But if you want to play in Arkham City as Commissioner Gordon or as a bank robber trying to avoid the Dark Knight (and a city full of supervillians), give modders the tools, time, and incentive to make it happen. If you want a totally moddable version of Diablo IV from skills, weapons, monsters and maps on up, then you should support paid mods.
Where do we go from here?

I believe Valve made two mistakes with their recent paid mods announcement. Firstly, they shouldn’t have heavily promoted the ability to charge for mods. The goal isn’t the ability to charge for mods. The goal is to create a community of modders and a golden age for modding. Paid mods is just a step in that direction. Wait until the best mods come out, where millions are playing mods (free or paid), and then promote.

Secondly, tying the announcement to a game that already has a huge base of mod content is dangerous. The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim is an incredibly mod-friendly game with a huge community of mod players and creators; don’t risk upsetting that ecosystem with such a big change this late in the product's lifecycle. Paid mods are a new world. Let new titles, not established communities, test out the waters.

There are also two safe guards I think the system needs to work:

1. Require certification before being able to produce paid content

Stardock has allowed modders to create and sell content for WinCustomize for years. The best control we had to keeping IP-infringing and non-owned content from showing up was to require approval before an individual could begin selling content. This creates a nice incentive to produce free content to become known, and a powerful incentive to make sure the content of your mods is appropriate or risk losing your ability to create paid mods for that game.

Approval would come from the game developer. They are making a portion of the sales, so they should be invested in making sure they approve at least the content creator, if not the content itself. That way different developers can adopt whatever strategy they would like like for their game and player community. Some may only open up paid content to a few top tier modders. Others may allow the community to upvote free content and award the ability to sell content to those that pass certain thresholds.

2. Paid mods should have a trial period

We can trust established game companies (though sometimes we get burned) but it’s probably too much to ask us to trust a random internet modder. So let’s set a higher bar for modders. All mods can be played for three days without charge; at the end of that period the player has to decide if he wants to buy it or not. This encourages modders to make sure their mods are the best, and allows players to go experiment with mods.

With these changes we can look forward to great mod teams that produce mods for various games. We will have shared characters and stories that cross worlds. We will find new IP, we will find that professional modder is as real of a job as a professional game player, and games will become toy boxes of abilities we can tweak and play with. I can’t wait to see it happen.

Sonereal · Apr 30, 2015

I agree with him. It really was a bad idea trying to implement the new policy using a game with an established modding scene. It would be better to test the system with a new game that doesn't have an established modding scene.

1. Require certification before being able to produce paid content

This is probably why the system can't work on Steam. Steam barely curates as is.

cybrxkhan · Apr 30, 2015

Scarlet_King said:
I agree with him. It really was a bad idea trying to implement the new policy using a game with an established modding scene. It would be better to test the system with a new game that doesn't have an established modding scene.

This is probably why the system can't work on Steam. Steam barely curates as is.

And, like I said, there's also the issue that TES mods by their very nature can be complex and interdependent of each other. That's something that's not necessarily easy to put into a paid modding system. You can do that for texture reskins in Dota, and even maybe new Civs in Civ, but in games like TES, CKII, Total War, and Mount and Blade, where the potential number of modders you have to ideally credit can reach astronomical numbers even for small mods... well, you'd definitely need strong curating first of all, and even then the system might still not be able to capably support these kind of modding communities the way they've been run for years now.

That said, like Derek, I don't think a lot of people are against paid modding in general. A lot of us have said something like "I WOULD TOTALLY PAY YOU A GAZILLION DOLLARS FOR THIS MOD." It's just the implementation, and whether the system accounts for the potential problems such as the ones I mentioned above.

sherbz · May 1, 2015

Some may only open up paid content to a few top tier modders. Others may allow the community to upvote free content and award the ability to sell content to those that pass certain thresholds.

This is basically the line I have been arguing for over this whole episode. Paid mods cannot and should not be a free for all. If you look at the mods associated with a game, then I would say the top 10% or something like that are deserving of being monetised. That requires either an approval system from the developer or an accredited system from consumers. But I agree that the decision here should be up to the developer. Ultimately it will affect the popularity of their game. I can see in the future games being released with a pre defined mod strategy and this can and should affect how positively a game is received by the community.

I also agree that a grace period is needed. Not the 24 hour policy Valve initially went for.

I sure hope you like paying for your mods

trader/warrior

Deity

sherbz

Deity

cybrxkhan

Asian Xwedodah

Sonereal

♫We got the guillotine♫

cybrxkhan

Asian Xwedodah

thecrazyscot

Spiffy

Sonereal

♫We got the guillotine♫

cybrxkhan

Asian Xwedodah

sherbz

Deity

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