ALC Game #24 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Babylon/Hammurabi

Bowmen are great for not being axerushed.

As this is unlikely to happen to a human player, I'd treat them as little more than ordinary Archers.

Research BW first, I say (unless you have both Pigs and Cows, of course)

BalbanesBeoulve said:

Plan on going for the oracle to get CoL, and then construction early for cats and the UB.

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I believe the Oracle gambit is a no-starter on the difficulty level Sis's playing at.

I vote for Immortal, the ORG/Agg combo is very powerful.

Your preferred style of play seams to be for fractal games with lot's of choke points, so I would go with that.

Bowmen are great if you end up isolated, since in that case your priority is barb defense, and you can afford to be a little lazier with fogbusting. The Garden allows you to set up a city with more flood plains than usual (instead of splitting them up, if there are a lot together) and not worry about the unhealthiness it causes. Alternatively, you can use the +2 "free" health to trade away 2 health resources (or one doubled one) even if it's your last copy. As mentioned, you'll also need all the you can get, since your traits will lead to near constant warfare (pending the map, of course). Finally, I think you'll cakewalk on Emperor unless you get a tough map or a bad start, so go for Immortal. Unlike America where the higher difficulty (and map) rendered the UU useless, the extra barbs will highlight the Bowman whether you want them to or not.

Stuck in Pi said:

I have just two words to say, just two words: Great Wall.

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Why lose the free XP from barbs, especially when the UU is great for holding them off?

kazapp said:

I believe the Oracle gambit is a no-starter on the difficulty level Sis's playing at.

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You can get pretty much any wonder you want on Immortal, it just takes a little more focus than it does on Emperor.

I would be interested in seeing an Immortal game with Hammurabi where you embraced an early REX strategy designed to block off the AI, a la Snatty's games. With good scouting and city placement, you could block off the map from the AI on a hemispheres, pangaea, or big & small map.

The UU would allow you to cheaply hold the territory from barbs and the AI, and Organized's cheap courthouses will lower your maintenance and give you some EPs to play with.

Why not build the Oracle and grab Code of Laws early after getting archery? Followed by Construction for the UB, you'd have good vertical expansion (Garden + Religion + Temple, supported by health bonus of UB) and horizontal expansion through the REX strategy.

In a nutshell, I'm suggesting that you focus on the late classical age "builder" techs ASAP(CoL, Construction, Currency) and put your hammers into settlers and cheap buildings/UUs.

The only reason not to go mining- Bronze first is if capital has very little/no food and forest. Otherwise any other path is suboptimal

As others have stated, the UB is quite good. I don't remember if it was originally +1 health or just leaked wrong before BTS was released, but I recall being very happy when I saw it was +2 health.

Yes, construction is a tech later than math, but for 20 hammers more than an aqueduct you get +1 happy and the culture slider boost. No need to build aqueducts until the late game with Gardens.

I think going for AH will depend completely on the map. My first thought was Hunting -> Archery -> AH or Hunting -> AH -> Archery. You're going to go for Hunting early because of the UU, make AH cheaper. I realize this delays BW, but Hammurabi is one leader who can afford that with the Bowman. Maybe hold off AH if there aren't visible animals in the initial BFC.

marstinson said:

In most of my games I'm doing well to get even a single food resource within the BFC for the capital unless I want to move a couple or three tiles before settling, while the AI seems to be exceptionally blessed in this area.

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It's all about selective memory.

How does the map generator determine where to put the player and the AI civs?

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There's no difference in how the map generator makes the starting locations for the human and the AI. Howewer, the civs unique charaterics such as starting techs make a difference. Civs with fishing starting tech are more likely to start coastal, for instance.

Sisiutil's comment about grain being common in the capital's BFC doesn't make sense considering my experience to this point.

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In every start generated, there's a food resource. In most starts, there are 2+ (strategic or food) resources. I would say grain is fairly common in capital's BFC.

If you don't belive it, try it. Create 100 starts and keep track of what resources you get in the BFC.

Using bowmen against the AI isn't usually very worthwhile. The AI starts with archers already and bowmen vs axemen is a non-starter unless you plan on fielding enormous numbers of them. They are pretty cheap so I wouldn't absolutely rule it out. On the other hand, bowmen are awesome vs barbs. Maybe this would be a good game to put raging barbarians on to showcase the power of bowmen?

I like the earlier suggestion of Big & Small. No extra civs this time to let the barbs have a bit of fun. Hopefully you end up on a big island...

Starting techs are pretty awesome for Babylon. If we play this one with raging barbarians I'd recommend going straight for hunting -> archery then getting mining -> BW. No sense in getting the GW... you want the barbs to come after you. The XP will be very nice.

If we get a large enough force of well promoted archers maybe we can do something a little different this game and promote them to crossbows when the time comes? Large stacks of 10 XP drill and combat crossbows would be pretty effective in a medieval war.

Thoughts from a player who, as of yesterday, finally made the jump to Noble (and who, as of this morning, played the shortest game of Civ IV he ever has when a random event resulted in his civilization being wiped out by a roving band of barbarian archers).

Stay at Immortal level. Hammurabi is a strong leader and I don't think you even broke a sweat in the Lincoln game. You're obviously ready for this level.

I'd be interested in an Inland Sea game. The second game I started this morning (after my first, humiliating defeat) is an inland sea map (on the second time I've used it) and I'm curious to see how you handle it.

Bowmen are good for cheap defense early on. I also like the suggestion of using them to pillage and prevent a neighbor from working their land in the early years to keep them in the stone age for centuries.

Given the amount of warring you'll do, the game may not last long enough to enjoy the health benefit of the UB in the late game but, if it does, that's when this UB comes in handy.

Only go for AH if your only food source in the BFC requires it. Otherwise, Hunting -> Archery. (Though I would be curious to see if you could pull off an Oracle gambit at Immortal, which might require some adjustment to this.)

And, of course, the warrior must be moved 1NE.

Froggie818 said:

I'd be interested in an Inland Sea game. The second game I started this morning (after my first, humiliating defeat) is an inland sea map (on the second time I've used it) and I'm curious to see how you handle it.

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I think Inland Sea was used for the Shaka ALC, which led to a warmongering rampage in not much time at all.

Big and Small could be fun as others have suggested. A lot depends how much mileage you want to get out of the aggressive trait. It's not bad for intercontinental warfare as free C1 to gunpowder units makes amphibious available pretty quickly for all of them (not just marines).

MyOtherName said:

What map script are you using? All of the ones I'm familiar with come with an near 100% guarantee you get a food resource in the BFC of your capital. (Occasionally it's just a plains cow or a forested deer, but that still counts) The only possible exception is if you manage to get 20 flood plains in your BFC.

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None that I am aware of. As far as I know it's plain BtS 3.17. The only extras that I have installed are Solver's and Bhruic's patches since I need them (I think) to see Sisiutil's saves for the ALC.

You don't need Solver's to see S man saves. Solver patch does not alter the saves.....

About the game:

War a lot, war often. Keep the cities. Win by dom.

Ah, and play immortal

Zanttu said:

In every start generated, there's a food resource. In most starts, there are 2+ (strategic or food) resources. I would say grain is fairly common in capital's BFC.

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Now that you mention it... I *have* noticed that in starts where it appears that I've been robbed on the resource placement at the outset, it's pretty common to have hidden resources pop inside the BFC when I tech to the appropriate point. 'Course surviving to that point is a different question...

Babylons UB is great. Even better than the persian UB as most of the time it is available way earlier. The UU will be ultra hard to use no matter though so don't think you should focus on that. Tech path is obviously highly dependant on starting position but with agressive i would certanly favour BW over AH... Both of hammi's traits are great so i bet you can handle immortal...

Unless you have a critter in the BFC of the cap, I would go with something other than AH. I second the notion for raging barbarians to be used in the game. If you do use raging barbs, I think the Great Wall is debatable. On one hand, you keep them out of your stuff and the muck up the others. On the other hand if you keep them out then your bowmen sit there with their thumbs up their bum.

Selecting Raging Barbs and then focusing on the Great Wall is kind of a cheat, and at any rate both uneducational (anyone can do that) and unexciting (no barb on bow action)!

Better look out for Persia and their Immortals.