What would have happened if France had held the Meuse in 1940?

I don't know of any offensive operations undertaken by Vichy France.

Vichy's Army was not strong enough to undertake any large scale offensive operations.

Still they carried out some offensive operations, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...uring_World_War_II#Vichy_French_attacks:_1940

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Koh_Chang

Because it takes time to bring it to bear. And the British had plenty of time.

Yes, they were very phlegmatic with many of their actions during WW2. That's why these actions failed.

Let me remind that it also takes time for the Germans. They were not "above time".
 
regarding de Gaulle , ı think it was last summer when ı was involved in a discussion on whether Petain chose to be close to Germans while he sent de Gaulle to England to cover all the bases .
Well, he did not.

Reynaud did send de Gaulle to the UK earlier. Reynaud having stepped down and Pétain stepped up, de Gaulle went to London on his own initiative when it was clear that France under Pétain wouldn't stay in the fight. If one listens to the 1940 BBC speeches of de Gaulle, he certainly wasn't saying anything other than that Pétain and his cronies were a bunch of cowards who had sold France out.

There was however a not uncommon belief in France in the summer of 1940 that there was some kind of agreement between Pétain and de Gaulle over this - that the old guy stepped up to ask the Germans for terms, to make them stop killing the French asap, while the young guy went off to London to rally the French to fight on. I.e. that it was all a clever double-act by Pétain and de Gaulle. It was a belief widespread enough in France in 1940 to have rather a lot of people declare themselves in favour of both Pétain and de Gaulle at the same time.

The trouble with that view is that it wasn't true. There was no agreement between Pétain and de Gaulle. It became quite clear to the French public at least by the time the Vichy condemned de Gaulle to death in his absence, as a traitor to France.

I don't know why the idea that the Vichyists and the Free French were at each others' throats, both sides thinking the other the basest of traitors to the nation, is apparently hard to grasp at times?
Why WWII from a French perspective was a fundamental struggle over what kind of country it should be, with de Gaulle and the Free French upholding the principles of the Third Republic (liberté, égalité, fraternité) never accepting the defeat in 1940 and the subsequent abolition of the French republic, against the Vichy state (travail, famille, patrie), which was something altogether different.
 
As I wrote, you badly failed to read your own link. Let's quote some facts from the link you provided:

Prototype 88s were first produced in 1928

Widespread production started with the Nazi rise to power in 1933

That is from the section which lacks any citations.

And here something from outside Wikipedia:

Number of AA guns Germans had on 1 July 1939:

"Number of German Anti-Aircraft guns on 1 July of 1939 was as follows: 20mm - 5230, 37mm - 920, 88mm - 2335, 105mm - 34 (total 8519). Anti-Aircraft reflectors 60 and 150mm numbered 2475. (...) In July of 1939 units of Anti-Aircraft artillery numbered 107,000 soldiers."

And here number of AA guns Germans had on 1 September 1939:

"Am 1. September 1939 waren vorhanden: 6.072 Stück 2-cm-Flak, 1.030 Stück 3,7-cm-Flak, 2.459 Stück 8,8-cm-Flak, 64 Stück 10,5-cm-Flak" (total 9625)

They "hadn't been developed yet", but Germans already had 2500 of them by the time when the war started. Interesting...

So from 1933-´39 2,459 Flaks 88 were produced. Why does that not impress me? Maybe becasue divived by 6 it´s 600 Flak 88 annually? (However, if we count 1939 only it´s abit more imporessive.) The smaller calibers can be ignored, as that would be the same caliber as your average Panzer carried, which were hopelessly underarmed. And this in turn explains the use off 88mm Flak against enemy armour in the first place.

You mean superior tonnage, not manpower. That's what I wrote above about the Royal Navy.

When I´m talking about manpower I don´t mean tonnage, no. As with the Wikipedia quote, you should check the context.

That's why I was arguing that Britain alone - without Soviets and Americans - could not, by any means, defeat Germany. So you agree?

I cannot answer that really; Lord Baal wrote an essay about how it might theoretically be possible. In practice however, Churchills being adamant about the US coming in seems to point in another direction.

Vichy's Army was not strong enough to undertake any large scale offensive operations.

Still they carried out some offensive operations, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...uring_World_War_II#Vichy_French_attacks:_1940

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Koh_Chang



Yes, they were very phlegmatic with many of their actions during WW2. That's why these actions failed.

Let me remind that it also takes time for the Germans. They were not "above time".

Indeed - hence the Blitzkrieg concept.

As to your ´offensive operations´: the first was more of a retaliatory operation following Churchill´s decision to neutralize the French fleet. The second operation was against Thailand, so there´s no connection to the Allies there.


No offense, but you are linking to another post of yours, not a source.

regarding de Gaulle , ı think it was last summer when ı was involved in a discussion on whether Petain chose to be close to Germans while he sent de Gaulle to England to cover all the bases .

The reason De Gaulle went to England was that he didn´t agree with an armistice; although he wasn´t popular in London he went on to lead the Free French forces, i.e. that part of the French that didn´t recognize the armistice signed by Pétain. AFAIK he wasn´t linked in any way to Pétain and his regime. So Pétain ´sending´ De Gaulle to England seems a bit of a misrepresentation.
 
Yes, they were very phlegmatic with many of their actions during WW2. That's why these actions failed.

Let me remind that it also takes time for the Germans. They were not "above time".
Different situations. German could bring its manpower to bear more rapidly partially because it was in Europe and partially because the British intended to rely fairly heavily on the French forces on the ground. Once again, they had the short-term advantage, but no way to use it against the British.
 
That is from the section which lacks any citations.

It has citations. For example references [5] and [6]. You didn't check your own link carefully enough, again.

On the other hand, your posts lack citations. But I can add you some lacking citations if you want.

Both me and r16 know that 88s were designed long before the outbreak of war.

The smaller calibers can be ignored, as that would be the same caliber as your average Panzer carried, which were hopelessly underarmed.

"My" average Panzer? Show me a tank from 1939 which carried 88mm caliber. Globally.

which were hopelessly underarmed.

What? 37mm - at most - was a standard calibre for main battle tanks of any army in the world in 1939.

Quick-firing guns calibre 20mm of Panzer II tanks were also pretty decent weapons as for 1939 global standards.

Tanks with guns of calibres bigger than 20mm - 47mm were just small percentages of tank inventories of any army in the world at that time.

And many armies didn't have any tanks armed with anything bigger than 37mm (like Czechoslovakian army, for example).

The smaller calibers can be ignored

Those were Anti-Aircraft guns, not heavy artillery... They were designed to fight enemy aircrafts, not Fort Eben-Emael...

20mm and 37mm are more than enough for an Anti-Aircraft gun. 88mm guns were in fact too large for Anti-Aircraft purposes. Due to their size they were simply easy targets for enemy bombers, and not as mobile as smaller calibres of AA guns. Maybe that's why they were more useful against ground targets.

Not mentioning the fact that it takes less time and money to produce 20mm gun than 88mm gun.

And smaller calibres like 20mm and 37mm had faster rate of fire than 88mm. Rate of fire is important in Anti-Aircraft combats.

Why does that not impress me? Maybe becasue divived by 6 it´s 600 Flak 88 annually?

Care to show any other industry in the world which produced 600 calibre 88mm AA guns annually during the 1930s?

And this in turn explains the use off 88mm Flak against enemy armour in the first place.

I was describing mainly the use of 88mm Flaks against fortifications.

The necessity of using 88mm Flaks against enemy armour emerged not before Germans encountered Soviet KV and T-34 tanks.

Well, yet during the battle of France they encountered some heavily armoured tanks (like French Char B1 heavy tanks) - but in insignificant numbers. And the main disadvantage of French heavy tanks was that - despite very thick armour - they had just mediocre for AT purposes, short-barreled guns. Only in Russia they encountered large numbers of heavily armoured tanks, with also decent guns, which were very hard to destroy with "conventional" weapons.

During early years most of enemy tanks - also in 1941 in Russia - could be destroyed even by KwK 20mm (like Soviet BT and T-26 or French R-35 tanks).
 
Weren't the 20mm and 37mm unable to effectively hit bombers at altitude (lack of range)?
Hence the high velocity heavy AA guns used by everybody. They would be primarily used against heavy bombers that wouldn't be able to easily see and destroy them.
 
I'm not sure, I didn't check their range.

But in general the main purpose of Anti-Aircraft defence is to keep enemy bombers at bay, at high altitude.

Bombers were terribly inefficient and inaccurate when attacking targets from high altitude (I am talking about bombers from that period - I'm not talking about modern bombers which can bomb targets with great precision even from high altitude thanks to modern guidance systems, etc.).

But probably you are right that 88s were very useful in defence against strategic bombings of German cities by Allied heavy bombers, etc.

However, smaller calibres were more handy for units fighting in the field, on the frontline, against enemy close air support.
 
Definitely. If you want to kill that fighter strafing you, you want a high rate of fire that can traverse quickly and correspondingly a small calibre. At the other extreme you want something big and powerful (the L71 8.8cm was developed to better attack high altitude bombers). And in between you want stuff in between. On the front, the 37-40mm were probably the best and most common guns (along with the famous Quad-50, which is just awesome).
 
Correct.

It has citations. For example references [5] and [6]. You didn't check your own link carefully enough, again.

On the other hand, your posts lack citations. But I can add you some lacking citations if you want.

Both me and r16 know that 88s were designed long before the outbreak of war.

For the record, I do not quote citations that lack sources. ´ Both me and r16 know that 88s were designed long before the outbreak of war´ would be such a quote.

"My" average Panzer? Show me a tank from 1939 which carried 88mm caliber. Globally.

Which is my point. (And I was unaware you owned any Panzers...)

What? 37mm - at most - was a standard calibre for main battle tanks of any army in the world in 1939.

Quick-firing guns calibre 20mm of Panzer II tanks were also pretty decent weapons as for 1939 global standards.

Tanks with guns of calibres bigger than 20mm - 47mm were just small percentages of tank inventories of any army in the world at that time.

And many armies didn't have any tanks armed with anything bigger than 37mm (like Czechoslovakian army, for example).

Irrelevant. German tanks were actually inferior to the standard British and French tanks they encountered in the West. Where the Germans were superior, was their tactics and deployment of tanks.

Those were Anti-Aircraft guns, not heavy artillery... They were designed to fight enemy aircrafts, not Fort Eben-Emael...

20mm and 37mm are more than enough for an Anti-Aircraft gun. 88mm guns were in fact too large for Anti-Aircraft purposes. Due to their size they were simply easy targets for enemy bombers, and not as mobile as smaller calibres of AA guns. Maybe that's why they were more useful against ground targets.

Not mentioning the fact that it takes less time and money to produce 20mm gun than 88mm gun.

And smaller calibres like 20mm and 37mm had faster rate of fire than 88mm. Rate of fire is important in Anti-Aircraft combats.

Care to show any other industry in the world which produced 600 calibre 88mm AA guns annually during the 1930s?

Where to begin...

Yes, they were AA, because that is what we are talking about. The 88 stems from a line of AA guns.

No, the smaller caliber guns weren´t enough for AA purposes, hence the development of the 88 mm gun.

Rate of fire is irrelevant if you miss. But perhaps the persons responsible for AA in Germany got it wrong. Could be.

A production 600 AA guns annually seems rather low, don´t you think? Which was my point.

I was describing mainly the use of 88mm Flaks against fortifications.

The necessity of using 88mm Flaks against enemy armour emerged not before Germans encountered Soviet KV and T-34 tanks.

Well, yet during the battle of France they encountered some heavily armoured tanks (like French Char B1 heavy tanks) - but in insignificant numbers. And the main disadvantage of French heavy tanks was that - despite very thick armour - they had just mediocre for AT purposes, short-barreled guns. Only in Russia they encountered large numbers of heavily armoured tanks, with also decent guns, which were very hard to destroy with "conventional" weapons.

During early years most of enemy tanks - also in 1941 in Russia - could be destroyed even by KwK 20mm (like Soviet BT and T-26 or French R-35 tanks).

Yes, those Soviet ´tanks´ were inferior even to the Panzers I and II. As for the rest, I already divulged on German armour tactics and deployment (their main reason for success up until 1941-´42), plus I already mentioned Rommel´s use of the 88 during his thrust to the Channel, but since you don´t seem to actually read my comments, why continue?
 
I don't think T-26 and BT tanks were inferior to Panzers I.

At least T-26 could destroy Panzer I, while Panzer I couldn't destroy T-26.

I already divulged on German armour tactics and deployment (their main reason for success up until 1041-´42)

German armour deployment 1041- '42: :D

Spoiler :

, plus I already mentioned Rommel´s use of the 88 during his thrust to the Channel

Yes. I saw it. And I agree. But I wrote that there was no necessity to use 88s against enemy armour until Russia 1941.

88s were already used against tanks in Spain (against Soviet T-26 tanks), which doesn't mean that there was necessity to use them against T-26s.

Republican Soviet designed T-26 tanks in Spain could be destroyed also with other weapons - not just with 88s. So there was no necessity.

No, the smaller caliber guns weren´t enough for AA purposes, hence the development of the 88 mm gun.

Strangely all armies of the world thought differently than you claim.

And Swedish designed Bofors calibre 40mm AA gun, for example, was considered an excellent AA gun.

A production 600 AA guns annually seems rather low, don´t you think?

No I don't think so.

But if you show me a country which produced more than 600 AA guns calibre 88mm in the 1930s annually, maybe I will change my mind.

Rate of fire is irrelevant if you miss.

Why would you miss? Because enemy bombers escaped from your dense AA fire into very high altitude?

Well - that would be OK, since the main purpose of AA defence is to defend from enemy air attacks.

And - as I already pointed out - air attacks from high altitude could not be efficient enough to harm anything (unless they were conducted against very huge targets, which are so huge that simply can't be missed - like strategic bombings of cities aimed at killing civilians in these cities).

If you want to attack enemy bombers, you will use your fighter aircrafts, not your AA defence...

Irrelevant. German tanks were actually inferior to the standard British and French tanks they encountered in the West.

In some ways inferior, in some other ways superior. My point was that a standard German tank in the West in 1940 - so Pz-II, Pz-35(t), Pz-38(t) and Pz-III - could destroy every standard French & British tank of 1940. Differences between combat parameters of these tanks were not significant.
 
Yes, those Soviet ´tanks´ were inferior even to the Panzers I and II.

Can you explian more mith more detail on what basis you make this conclussions ?
And also have you heard of Kliment Voroshilov ?
 
He was talking about T-26 and BT tanks. But still those were not inferior to Panzers I and II. Moreover - they were definitely superior to Panzers I when it comes to tank vs tank combats (since Panzer I could fight only against "soft targets" like infantry - it didn't have a gun, it only had two MGs).

Which is my point.

No, your point was that German tanks were "hopelessly underarmed".

And I showed you that they were not - because at that time all armies in the world had tanks with such armament.

´ Both me and r16 know that 88s were designed long before the outbreak of war´ would be such a quote.

Check r16s post in which he writes this.

to the standard British tanks they encountered in the West.

The standard (= most numerous) British Expeditionary Corps' tank in France / Belgium in 1940 was this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Tank_Mk_VI

Spoiler :



In what way was this tank allegedly superior to standard German tanks? :rolleyes: This tank was actually inferior even to German Panzer II tank (and of course to all other German tanks and Czechoslovakian tanks in German service, except Panzer I), and was not really superior to Panzer I, but roughly equal.

It was also inferior to Soviet T-26 and BT tanks.

============================

Edit:

And when it comes to appearance / profile, this British standard tank - MK VI - looks ridiculously & awkwardly: :lol:

Spoiler :


On the other hand, German Panzer II tanks looks dangerously - like a fast & agile / nimble & tricky predator:

 
@OP: The war would have ended a lot sooner.
 
Indeed. Unfortunately the French counterattack was ineffective.

Yes. I saw it. And I agree. But I wrote that there was no necessity to use 88s against enemy armour until Russia 1941.

88s were already used against tanks in Spain (against Soviet T-26 tanks), which doesn't mean that there was necessity to use them against T-26s.

Republican Soviet designed T-26 tanks in Spain could be destroyed also with other weapons - not just with 88s. So there was no necessity.

Rommel´s use of 88s was of necessity - which disproves your point.

Strangely all armies of the world thought differently than you claim.

With the exception then of the Wehrmacht, who ordered the production of a 88mm caliber A gun.

No I don't think so.

But if you show me a country which produced more than 600 AA guns calibre 88mm in the 1930s annually, maybe I will change my mind.

In 1928 the general characteristics for a new HAA gun were agreed on; a 3.7 inch firing 25 lb shells with a ceiling of 28,000 feet. However, finance was very tight and no action was taken until 1930s, when the specification was enhanced to a 28 lb shell, 3000 feet/second muzzle velocity, a 35,000 feet ceiling, a towed road speed of 25 mph, maximum weight of 8 tons and an into action time of 15 minutes.
In 1934 Vickers Armstrong produced a mock-up and went on to develop prototypes which was selected and passed acceptance tests in 1936.[5][6] However, the weight specification was exceeded and the muzzle velocity not achieved. Furthermore, the initial mechanical time fuze, No 206, was still some years from production so the igniferous No 199 had to be used, and its lesser running time limited the effective ceiling. Gun production started the following year.
On 1 January 1938 the British air defences had only 180 anti-aircraft guns larger than 50 mm, and most of these were the older 3-inch (76 mm) guns. This number increased to 341 by September 1938 (Munich Crisis), to 540 in September 1939 (declaration of war), and to 1,140 during the Battle of Britain. Production continued until 1945, averaging 228 guns per month throughout the period. Guns were also manufactured in Australia.


So excuse me if I don´t find a yearly production of 600 AA guns impressive.


Why would you miss? Because enemy bombers escaped from your dense AA fire into very high altitude?

Well - that would be OK, since the main purpose of AA defence is to defend from enemy air attacks.

And - as I already pointed out - air attacks from high altitude could not be efficient enough to harm anything (unless they were conducted against very huge targets, which are so huge that simply can't be missed - like strategic bombings of cities aimed at killing civilians in these cities).

If you want to attack enemy bombers, you will use your fighter aircrafts, not your AA defence...

The argument was about AA, not attacking enemy bombers. And 88 mm AA guns were deemed necessary. You figure it out.

In some ways inferior, in some other ways superior. My point was that a standard German tank in the West in 1940 - so Pz-II, Pz-35(t), Pz-38(t) and Pz-III - could destroy every standard French & British tank of 1940. Differences between combat parameters of these tanks were not significant.

The light tanks of the BEF might have been totally inferior, the French tanks were not. On the contrary. And the BEF was always the junior partner in the Western campaign.

He was talking about T-26 and BT tanks. But still those were not inferior to Panzers I and II. Moreover - they were definitely superior to Panzers I when it comes to tank vs tank combats (since Panzer I could fight only against "soft targets" like infantry - it didn't have a gun, it only had two MGs).

Indeed. Yet all these inferior/superior Soviet tanks were destroyed in the 6 months of 1941´s Barbarossa campaign.

No, your point was that German tanks were "hopelessly underarmed".

And I showed you that they were not - because at that time all armies in the world had tanks with such armament.

No, you did not: Germany wasn´t fighting ´all armies in the world´, it was fighting French and British tanks - against which the majority of Panzers were underarmed - as shown by Rommels´troubles when confronted with a concerted counterattack, which might have thwarted his drive to the Channel, had he not resorted to deploying 88s to stop them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_II_(tank)

Check r16s post

I stand corrected then. Interesting though that no mention is made of French tanks, which would be the majority of Allied tanks encountered in the West:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_B1
 
With the exception then of the Wehrmacht, who ordered the production of a 88mm caliber A gun.

And still continued the production of smaller calibres. Which contradicts your point that they considered smaller calibres as useless.

It's like claiming that Panzer IV became useless when Tiger was invented. Actually focusing on size instead of numbers is what doomed Germany.

The light tanks of the BEF might have been totally inferior, the French tanks were not.

Vast majority - around 78% - of all French tanks were also light tanks (R-35, H-35 & 39, AMR, FCM 36, AMC and F-18 tank models).

Only some 22% of French tanks were medium tanks (Somua, Char D2 & D1) and heavy tanks (Char B).

And for example Renault R-35 tank - which was the most numerous of French light tanks - was armed in short-barreled Puteaux SA 18 gun 37mm.

Puteaux SA 18 gun was designed during World War I (in 1918). And was still used by huge part of French armoured vehicles in 1940.

Did you check armour penetration capabilities of this gun? If not, check them.

You will see that German Pz-II had just as many problems with destroying French R-35 as R-35 had with destroying Pz-II.

it was fighting French and British tanks - against which the majority of Panzers were underarmed - as shown by Rommels´troubles when confronted with a concerted counterattack, which might have thwarted his drive to the Channel, had he not resorted to deploying 88s to stop them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_II_(tank)

Sorry but 23 Matildas II could not change the result of the battle of France.

Why would he resort to deploy 88s to stop them if he had some 88s nearby at hand? One of the basic rules of German way of fighting at that time was concentration of fire of everything which can fire against crucial points. And counterattacking enemy is such a crucial point.

====================================

When Polish infantry units counterattacked near the town of Ilza in September 1939:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iłża

They were supported by 51st Armoured Unit:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/51_Dywizjon_Pancerny

Which at that time had 4 TK-3 tankettes:

http://derela.republika.pl/tk.htm

And 4 armoured cars type 34:

http://derela.republika.pl/wz34.htm

Among German units which faced them was I./Flak-Regiment 22 - it had 3 batteries of 88mm & 2 batteries of 20mm AA guns. And I./Flak-Rgt. 22 opened fire to Polish TK-3 tankettes and type 34 armoured cars from all weapons - including also Achts Komma Achts.

But it was definitely not necessary - since thin armour of TK-3 tankette or type 34 armoured car could be pierced by literally anything.

Yet all these inferior/superior Soviet tanks were destroyed in the 6 months of 1941´s Barbarossa campaign.

You have no problems with claiming that France had superior tanks even though it was defeated in less than 2 months.

On the other hand, you have hard time with accepting that Soviet T-26 and BT were not inferior to Pz-II. Double standards?

And the BEF was always the junior partner in the Western campaign.

Yes it was. Not only due to difference in numerical strength, also due to difference in actual combat performance.

And French forces inside the Lille pocket pretty much saved the British ass at Dunkirk, buying time for evacuation with their resistance.
 
No offense, but you are linking to another post of yours, not a source.

well , it is not as a source but rather an attempt to ease archiving for myself . ı somehow have to stick to my lines ; if situation demands a change ı must keep within the limits of what ı had already posted and the own posts facility apparently limits you to the last 300 posts . Yet a thread ı started myself is easier to find . With due apologies to other posters , of course . It is not just vanity that ı have a wall to wall thread where ı keep to myself .
 
on the Maginot :

paraphrasing the note forwarded in Turkish and writing from jpeg files of magazine pages , the first fort of the line to fall is said to be La Ferte near Sedan and it took 4 days for a German division to kill all of its 104 occupants . Starting from May 15th . By May 19th , French troops began a general withdrawal form the area , and the "interval forces" , the sword in the Russian parlance to throw back any infiltration to assist the shield [as provided by the forts of Maginot Line ] left the area . Leading a succession of withdrawals form the forts around the breaktrough region .

by June all the interval foces were removed to resist Fall Rot . Meaning the Fermont Fortress , 25 miles North of Verdun and its 572 occupants were attacked by German forces unhindered by any other resistance . On June 11 , an 88 was brought up to act as a jackhammer and it nearly blew up a full magazine . Germans are then said to have stopped , enabling the French to patch up their "submarine" with iron plates and fresh cement during the night . German attacks continued until by 21st of June , 6 batteries of 105 mm , 2 batteries of 88s , 3 single mortars of 210mm and 4 examples of 305 mm mortars were arrayed against the fortress . Those 305 mm mortars might have been those that reduced Liege in 1914 . After a two hour bombardment , the infantry attack began , only to be beaten back by French fire . Later in the day Germans asked for a cease-fire to collect their wounded . They had about 80 wounded and killed . The French casualties were one killed and one wounded . June 22 France surrendered , written orders were sent fortress commander and marched out with his troops , Tricolor flying .

the Simserhof complex contained 820 French soldiers . They fought two German divisions for 13 days , surrendering after they finished their supply of 30 000 shells . The largest one in the entire Line , the Hackenberg complex fought off German attacks from June 15 to July 4th .

maybe ı can also remark on the 88 and its production dates . Apart from Wikipedia article linked , ı see it was the last project of Krupp engineers working for Bofors between 1920 and 30 , was in production by 1933 and my misconception about the service entry in 1936 derives from the Flak 36 nomenclature . It is actually a modified version after experience in Spain and not the first as ı imagined . The view of 1939-40 might be relevant to its longer barrel version termed the Flak 41 , of which the service introduction was delayed into 1943 . Of recent developments in weaponry the 140mm tank guns were reported to be so powerful that they had no need to actually penetrate enemy tanks , they were simply capable of removing the turrets by making them fly in the air . The long barrel 88 could do the same with lighter turrets of WW2 and can probably be defined as the 88 .

de Gaulle is probably a point that ı should write at home , checking for spelling mistakes and all .
 
Later in the day Germans asked for a cease-fire to collect their wounded . They had about 80 wounded and killed . The French casualties were one killed and one wounded .

Ah, so this is that "40:1" casualty ratio...

Well, on such a "micro" scale, you will always find examples of such casualty ratios. For example on the first day of the German attack on Westerplatte in 1939, Germans suffered over 110 casualties, including lightly wounded. Poles suffered only 14 casualties, including lightly wounded.

If excluding lightly wounded ratio was even more favorable for the Poles as among their 14 casualties were 4 killed, 3 heavily wounded and 7 lightly wounded. Among German over 110 casualties were 15 killed, 56 heavily wounded and 40 lightly wounded. Of the 56 heavily wounded at least 2 later died of wounds.

Temporarily there were even more casualties on the German side during that day, because initially Germans reported also 3 missing. They were, however, found alive later, at some point after 5 September (on 5 September they were still considered missing). And in the final report about casualties suffered on 1 September, there were no missing under that date (the previously reported 3 missing were crossed out).

You can find examples of ambushes in which one side suffered no losses, while the other side suffered for example 50 casualties.

paraphrasing the note forwarded in Turkish and writing from jpeg files of magazine pages , the first fort of the line to fall is said to be La Ferte near Sedan and it took 4 days for a German division to kill all of its 104 occupants .

(...)

an 88 was brought up to act as a jackhammer and it nearly blew up a full magazine . Germans are then said to have stopped , enabling the French to patch up their "submarine" with iron plates and fresh cement during the night . German attacks continued until by 21st of June , 6 batteries of 105 mm , 2 batteries of 88s , 3 single mortars of 210mm and 4 examples of 305 mm mortars were arrayed against the fortress . Those 305 mm mortars might have been those that reduced Liege in 1914 . After a two hour bombardment , the infantry attack began , only to be beaten back by French fire . Later in the day Germans asked for a cease-fire to collect their wounded . They had about 80 wounded and killed . The French casualties were one killed and one wounded .

Yes, fortifications of the Maginot were extremely powerful. The strongest in the world.

That infantry attack which you mentioned, was a stupid idea. Germans should have continued to just shell it with artillery.

Or they could have brought some engineers to do their work, instead of infantry.
 
Actually, the Maginot Line was penetrated during the campaign in the West. Not that it mattered much as it had been circumvented already...

And still continued the production of smaller calibres. Which contradicts your point that they considered smaller calibres as useless.

That was not my point. Also, why would they order a larger calibre in the first place if the smaller calibres were sufficient?

Vast majority - around 78% - of all French tanks were also light tanks (R-35, H-35 & 39, AMR, FCM 36, AMC and F-18 tank models).

The vast majority of all armour in 1940 were light tanks.

Sorry but 23 Matildas II could not change the result of the battle of France.

Again, no one was arguing this.

Why would he resort to deploy 88s to stop them if he had some 88s nearby at hand? One of the basic rules of German way of fighting at that time was concentration of fire of everything which can fire against crucial points. And counterattacking enemy is such a crucial point.

I´m sorry, I´ve no idea what you´re arguing here...

You have no problems with claiming that France had superior tanks even though it was defeated in less than 2 months.

On the other hand, you have hard time with accepting that Soviet T-26 and BT were not inferior to Pz-II. Double standards?

1) Allied armour was deployed in a infantry-supporting role; German armour was deployed in close cooperation with air support.

2) Soviet armour was defeated in much the same manner. Whether Soviet light armour was inferior/superior to German armour was totally irrelevant to the outcome of battle.
 
Also, why would they order a larger calibre in the first place if the smaller calibres were sufficient?

I don't know. It is like asking why they developed King Tiger (everyone knows that producing King Tigers was a total waste of resources). :p

I'm not claiming that in case of 88s it was also a total waste. Fortunately for the Germans, 88s turned out to be useful. So it wasn't a waste.

But why they ordered a larger calibre in the first place if the smaller were or at least should be sufficient - I have no idea.

They also ordered a larger tank (King Tiger in my example), when the smaller ones were clearly sufficient.

Apparently their minds were not totally rational. But this is true not only when it comes to the Germans, also to their enemies.

I sometimes have impression that Germans fell into some kind of megalomania. Late in the war they concentrated to much on quality of equipment at the expense of quantity of equipment. This doomed them. They forgot the statement of one of their generals (now I forgot which one - maybe later I will find it) yet from the early 1930s, who said that: "It is better to have 100 of 10-ton tanks than 10 of 100-ton tanks". He was right.

And in "Bagration" German divisions were quite easily overran by hordes of Soviet tanks because they had simply not enough Anti-Tank guns.

During "Bagration" an average German infantry division had just 32 Anti-Tank guns (mainly calibres 7,5cm and captured Russian 7,62cm).

By comparison in September 1939 an average German infantry division had 75 Anti-Tank guns (calibre 3,7cm) - two times more.

The difference in calibre (3,7cm vs 7,5cm) doesn't matter - vs 1939 tanks 3,7cm was as good as 7,5cm was vs 1944 tanks, if not better.

Moreover - in September 1939 all of German Anti-Tank units were motorized (each AT gun was towed by a motor vehicle, not by a horse). Both those in infantry divisions and those in non-divisional units at Corps and Army level (and there were independent battalions of AT guns at those levels).

In 1944 in "Bagration" some AT guns were already self-propelled, but on the other hand some others were even towed by horses...

And very large calibres of AT guns turned out totally useless during "Bagration" - they were simply too ponderous to face hordes of Soviet tanks. So what that they could destroy every Soviet tank with 1 hit, if they could neither halt nor withdraw from a massive Soviet tank attack.

Soon it turned out that heaviest and largest of AT guns - like 8,8cm Pak 43 - suffered heaviest % losses of all types of AT guns. That's because they were easier targets and it was much harder to withdraw them from positions if defence against a Soviet tank attack didn't go as planned. These expensive, large AT guns with excellent armour penetration capabilities, turned out to be weapons "for single use only", if having to face a massive Soviet tank attack...

Actually, the Maginot Line was penetrated during the campaign in the West.

Yes, it was penetrated even more than once. For the first time at Sedan. Later further times at other areas - both in May and in June.

There is no any fortification which can't be penetrated. Even the most powerful can be penetrated.

And please note that the Maginot Line had also some relatively weak sections. It was not identically strong everywhere.

Sedan was definitely one of those weak points (at least it was weakly defended, but also it was one of relatively less fortified sections).

1) Allied armour was deployed in a infantry-supporting role;

Yes - in this role (i.e. they had a lot of independent tank battalions & units called "tank groups" - of various strength - supporting infantry), but not only in this role. Apart from armour deployed in this role, France actually had also several armoured divisions organized in a similar way to German Panzer divisions.

Of course the difference was that Germans concentrated nearly 100% of their tanks in armoured divisions, while France a much smaller %.

2) Soviet armour was defeated in much the same manner.

But for different reasons. Soviets had majority of their armour concentrated in very large armoured units.

And above all, they had much more armour than the Germans (some 6 to 7 times more tanks than the Germans).

They had, however, some other problems. And those problems were not about quality of their tanks - they were about quality of everything else in their tank units (beginning from shortages of motor vehicles, wireless communication or lack of such, ending on tank repair services, defective supply system, etc.).

Of course what I wrote above - about these Soviet problems - is only what some historians claim (David Glantz for example).

Some other historians - like Victor Suvorov - claim that these problems were exaggerated in post war historiography to justify the scale of the Red Army's catastrophic defeat in the first months of "Barbarossa", while in fact they were not as big as that other group of historians claims.

Hard to say for sure who is right.

=====================================

As to the rest of your points - I agree / I admit that there is nothing to argue about any more.
 
Top Bottom