Korea vs Babylon

T

The A.K.T

Warlord
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
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After i toot a look on the new Korea dlc i got a deju vu. It sounds exacly like the Babylonian. now i think i will try to compare these only science civs of Civ5:

Nebbuchadnesar II of Babylon:

UA Ingenuity:
Receives free Great Scientist when you discover writing, earn Great Scientists 50% more often.

My opinion 7/10
Its quite good having a Great Scientists in the early game so you can create a Acedemy early and enjoy the :c5science: boost, but the other advance has been buffed quiet becouse you dont get 1,5 great scienstists if you gains still just one.

UU Walls of Babylon gains 2+:c5strength: 10 cheaper:c5production: and exstra :c5rangedstrength: .

My opinion 9/10
The exstra ranged attack is quit good in the start game when you defense your empire against the barbs. its also cheaper and gives 6 instead of 4

UU Bowmen
+2:c5strength: and +2:c5rangedstrength:

My opinion 9/10
exstra ranged and defense against mele is powerfull. Gives an great step on the battlefield of the ancient and classical era.

Final Value
8/10 Good for defending citys, atacking other civs, and exstra great scienstits.


Sejong the Great of Korea

UA Scholars of the Jade Hall
Extra Science from all specialists and GP Tile Improvements
Science boost each time a science building or wonder is built in capital

My opinion 9/10
Exstra science from GP tiles and specialists sounds nice, and the boost from Science buildings and wonders build in capital could be very useful.

UU H'wacha
+2 exstra :c5strength: and +5 :c5rangedstrength:

My opinion 9/10
sounds very much like Ballista just with exstra :c5strength: too. But lose its ability after opgraded

UU Turtle ship
double :c5strength: and :c5rangedstrength: but -2 speed and cant enter ocian tiles.

My opinion 8/10
exstra :c5strength: and :c5rangedstrength: sounds powerfull but lose its caravel abilitys and becomes an Renaissance ironclad.

Value 9/10 sounds buch like Babylon but can defend its coastline more effektive and gets better science boost.

conclusien Nebbu 8/10 vs Sejong 9/10
Korea has a much stronger UA but its turtle ship may be the worst of the two civs UU

What is your opinion?
 
It's going to be hard to tell without some practical experience playing the Korean civ. Right now Babylon is very VERY strong. The early acadamy, strong walls and archers make for a very powerful start to any game no matter which direction you plan on taking.

For now, I'd say Babylon still holds the edge here. But I reserve the right to change my mind on that after playing the Korean civ in a game or two this coming weekend. :)
 
so they're not the same is what you're saying, even though that's how you started your thread.
but anyway, i'm not going to do a rating, but my opinion is that the turtleship seems to have two or three main advantages over the ironclad:
(probably) no resources required
comes a bit earlier
can be upgraded
 
IMO, subject to playing it of course, I think the Turtle Ship might go down as the worst UU in the game. It might be the only one worse than the normal unit. Why on Earth would I want a slow power ship instead of a Caravel? What would one use it for? Hardly anyone uses the similar Ironclad. When was the last time you ever said around 0 AD, "Man, I could really use a slow heavy naval defense against this amphibious onslaught?"

The whole point of the Caravel (and why it is a very important unit) is that it can get out and scour the world quickly. Very important in a Continents or Archipelago game. Sucks that the Koreans can't build it, and Turtle Ship becomes obsolete as soon as you can build Frigates with the very next tech. (Navigation)

Korean UA should be really awesome though.
 
spider1 said:
It's going to be hard to tell without some practical experience playing the Korean civ. Right now Babylon is very VERY strong. The early acadamy, strong walls and archers make for a very powerful start to any game no matter which direction you plan on taking.

For now, I'd say Babylon still holds the edge here. But I reserve the right to change my mind on that after playing the Korean civ in a game or two this coming weekend. :)
Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with this post. Babylon seems a bit more flexible, on paper at least.
 
Yea...Turtle ship is a such a cool ship with it's own unique graphics, but it wont have good use for it...Maybe just build one unit until Frigate...such a shame...If AI builds lots of navy early on then it could be a different story...
 
The A.K.T said:
After i toot a look on the new Korea dlc i got a deju vu. It sounds exacly like the Babylonian. now i think i will try to compare these only science civs of Civ5:

Nebbuchadnesar II of Babylon:

UA Ingenuity:
Receives free Great Scientist when you discover writing, earn Great Scientists 50% more often.

My opinion 7/10
Its quite good having a Great Scientists in the early game so you can create a Acedemy early and enjoy the :c5science: boost, but the other advance has been buffed quiet becouse you dont get 1,5 great scienstists if you gains still just one.

UU Walls of Babylon gains 2+:c5strength: 10 cheaper:c5production: and exstra :c5rangedstrength: .

My opinion 9/10
The exstra ranged attack is quit good in the start game when you defense your empire against the barbs. its also cheaper and gives 6 instead of 4

UU Bowmen
+2:c5strength: and +2:c5rangedstrength:

My opinion 9/10
exstra ranged and defense against mele is powerfull. Gives an great step on the battlefield of the ancient and classical era.

Final Value
8/10 Good for defending citys, atacking other civs, and exstra great scienstits.


Sejong the Great of Korea

UA Scholars of the Jade Hall
Extra Science from all specialists and GP Tile Improvements
Science boost each time a science building or wonder is built in capital

My opinion 9/10
Exstra science from GP tiles and specialists sounds nice, and the boost from Science buildings and wonders build in capital could be very useful.

UU H'wacha
+2 exstra :c5strength: and +5 :c5rangedstrength:

My opinion 9/10
sounds very much like Ballista just with exstra :c5strength: too. But lose its ability after opgraded

UU Turtle ship
double :c5strength: and :c5rangedstrength: but -2 speed and cant enter ocian tiles.

My opinion 8/10
exstra :c5strength: and :c5rangedstrength: sounds powerfull but lose its caravel abilitys and becomes an Renaissance ironclad.

Value 9/10 sounds buch like Babylon but can defend its coastline more effektive and gets better science boost.

conclusien Nebbu 8/10 vs Sejong 9/10
Korea has a much stronger UA but its turtle ship may be the worst of the two civs UU

What is your opinion?
Click to expand...

My conclusion is that you should spend less time playing Civilization and more time reading your spelling books.
Isn't, not Isent.
Extra, not exstra
effective, not effektive
Cities, not citys
powerful, not powerfull
conclusion, not conclusien

Hopefully you're a foreigner who doesn't speak English as a first language...
Moderator Action: We do not allow any grammar nazism here.
While we sure approve good english on the forums, we also have a lot of foreigners (like the guy you've been attacking) here, and english is not everyones first language. And every non native speaker here should feel comfortable when he/she posts on the forums, no matter how good his/her english is.

Korea sounds like a good civ, and I'm pumped about adding 3 new wonders. I just wish they'd release more than 1 new civ, this game should have 100+ civs, not just a few dozen.
 
WeneedmoreCivs said:
My conclusion is that you should spend less time playing Civilization and more time reading your spelling books.
Isn't, not Isent.
Extra, not exstra
effective, not effektive
Cities, not citys
powerful, not powerfull
conclusion, not conclusien

Hopefully you're a foreigner who doesn't speak English as a first language...

Korea sounds like a good civ, and I'm pumped about adding 3 new wonders. I just wish they'd release more than 1 new civ, this game should have 100+ civs, not just a few dozen.
Click to expand...

Im from denmark. I havent use my 13 years long life reading spelling books of english
 
The A.K.T said:
Im from denmark. I havent use my 13 years long life reading spelling books of english
Click to expand...

if you're 13 and from Denmark, you're already a better writer than most American 13 year olds. :lol:

To Dokebi's point about the turtle ship coming to early, perhaps playing this civ on a land based map AND a water map would be a good idea. If you're playing a water map, that turtle ship could come in quite handy. There are now three or four good water map civs, perhaps an archipelago game with just those civs would be interesting.
 
WeneedmoreCivs said:
this game should have 100+ civs, not just a few dozen.
Click to expand...

whoa, time out. i mean, more civilizations would be great, but that's an insane request. we want these civilizations to be at least a little unique. i mean, you could potentially just have a game with every country that exists today, but that would have tons of overlap after awhile.
 
To me Korea does not seem too impressive yet. The two UUs are not that great. Both have tiny lifespans, have no legacy bonuses and the turtle ship seems like a downgrade from the caravel. It all depends on how big science boost the UA will give. I assume specialists and gp tile improvements will get extra +1 :c5science: which can be great for some playstyles. Also we don't know how big the science boost for building wonders and science buildings in capital will be. Maybe it could be dependant on the hammer cost of the building? Anyway Korea seems to be suited for a tall builder civ and maybe it can be a very good niche for the civ. Time will tell I suppose.

Babylon on the other hand is tested to be the top tier civ time and again. Cheap bowmen are super good for early rushes and defending your empire. Also UA is one of the best. Walls of babylon are kind of lame as you shouldn't be building walls anyway. Still they have come handy in some situations when AIs decide to backstab you early on. Best part of the babylon is that it is a flexible civ that can go early conquering spree or just focus on science and empire development.
 
fmlizard2 said:
IMO, subject to playing it of course, I think the Turtle Ship might go down as the worst UU in the game. It might be the only one worse than the normal unit. Why on Earth would I want a slow power ship instead of a Caravel? What would one use it for? Hardly anyone uses the similar Ironclad. When was the last time you ever said around 0 AD, "Man, I could really use a slow heavy naval defense against this amphibious onslaught?"

The whole point of the Caravel (and why it is a very important unit) is that it can get out and scour the world quickly. Very important in a Continents or Archipelago game. Sucks that the Koreans can't build it, and Turtle Ship becomes obsolete as soon as you can build Frigates with the very next tech. (Navigation)

Korean UA should be really awesome though.
Click to expand...
I think you are forgetting Slingers & Zero. :p Turtle Ship can make a great defence coupled with Hwatcha against a human player. Otherwise it is not that special. Still it would be helpful taking down units near coastal cities. Also Korea is not about exploring like Spain or England so Turtle Ship penalty is not that much of a problem.

My ratings about 2 civs.

Babylon :-
UA : 8/10
UU : 9/10
UB : 8/10

Korea :-
UA : 9/10
Hwatcha : 9/10
Turtle Ship : 7/10
 
Poomermon said:
Walls of babylon are kind of lame as you shouldn't be building walls anyway. Still they have come handy in some situations when AIs decide to backstab you early on. Best part of the babylon is that it is a flexible civ that can go early conquering spree or just focus on science and empire development.
Click to expand...

well, to be fair, you don't want them to have too much of an advantage over everybody else.
 
The A.K.T said:
Nebbuchadnesar II of Babylon:

UA Ingenuity:
Receives free Great Scientist when you discover writing, earn Great Scientists 50% more often.
Click to expand...
Babylon is the only civ I haven't got, I left them because everybody says they're such a powerhouse. A free scientist with Writing and Great Scientists 50% more often sounds over the top for me, especially that free scientist. Just getting scientists quicker would be better, I think.
That bowman sounds really good as well.
UU Turtle ship
double :c5strength: and :c5rangedstrength: but -2 speed and cant enter ocian tiles.
Click to expand...
Here I had to start up Civ 5 and look at the Civilopedia to understand what this meant. The Civilopedia says about the Caravel: strength 15, bombard 7, so that would mean a Turtleship has strength 30, bombard 14. Almost like a Frigate, which is strength 30 and bombard 15.

The Turtleship is the reason I'm quite looking forward to Korea, I love nice naval units, we haven't been spoilt with them sofar.
I think it's going to be a situational unit, sometimes phenomenal, sometimes nearly useless. This is a fighting ship, nothing else. Zero explorational value. It just depends on how many cities you and your opponents have in reach of coastal tiles. Better on smaller maps than on bigger maps. Only 3 move is a disadvantage, of course, but I'm looking very much forward to how this unit plays.

I hope Korea are less strong than Babylon, Babylon just sounds too strong.
 
Babylon has the best UA in the game. The importance of a free early Academy cannot be overstated now that getting the NC happens much later, and getting an extra GS or two over the course of the game is also very strong.

It's hard to put a value on the Korean UA without knowing how large the Wonder boost is, but assuming that the bonus is sane their UA is significantly weaker. Double Secularism via UA and policy isn't going to be gamebreaking. Paradoxically, their UA is probably going to be best in a Cultural game where you want to be running a ton of Artist and Engineer specialists.

Bowmen are now the best early UU in the game due to low tech requirement, cost and power. Walls of Babylon aren't terrible, but aren't great either. By contrast, the Korean Caravel UU is pretty bad due to low movement rate and the Trebuchet is uninspiring.

I don't see Korea displacing Babylon from the top of the heap, but they should be a very playable civ.
 
I've said it before, you could take either one of Babylons abilities, the free GS at writing or the generates GS points 50% faster, away and they'd still be in the top half of the list of best UA's.

Edit - It's the caravel replacement that can't explore over oceans that has left me scratching my head wondering where they are going with this one?
 
The UU caravel for Korea could be a good advantage. It's probably cheaper than a frigate and won't cost an iron resource so you can have a powerful large navy for coastal domination. Since it's stats are pretty much equal to a frigate you won't have to build any frigates and can compete with frigates. Considering that Korea is on a peninsula they probably have an ocean start bias so you can expand with coastal cities and attack other coastal cities with ease and early on with basically no competition in the water.
 
Babylons' bonus is 10/10, maybe 9/10 worst case post patch. (dropped to 50% from 100%) but boosted back up easily with HS and one point in freedom (vs. 3 pre-patch)

Koreas' +2/specialist and GP tile will provide more raw science, but that's less useful late game than full free techs. I agree with martin that this will be a cultural civ done slightly differently.

As per how powerful it is... we'll definitely need to check the numbers for the free science from the wonders/etc.

Would make the run to Education/double GE pop two wonders->drive to Astronomy take less time, which drives faster GS production (and therefore boosted science from specialists)

turtle ship ->5/10 max. Caravels are ocean going vessels that garner you massive gold and science if you need them to meet more than one civ. Navigation can be gotten easily, so that breaks the need for the Turtleship.

It's main benefit will be for pangeas and small continents/archi maps. On pangea, it'll be a nice relatively early strong coastal support ship. (assuming no iron needed) Not taking up precious iron means you can flank coastal areas with more bombardment and little/no returned fire.

For the other ones, you can field a far bigger navy with less iron. though a frigates 15 RA vs. a turtle ships 12 RA means the Turtle ship loses fast. naval combat has -60% CS, so the 30CS = 12 CS. 15 vs 12 gives far more damage than 12 vs 12 and the SoTL's 17 vs 12
 
Question: does no one else think the 'tech boost' from buildings in capital will be an instant RA?

It would fit in quite nicely with the current system, and would require 2 specific things to be very powerful (PT & Rationalism). Plus that you would only get 4-5 full medians max - you will usually get Rationalism AFTER GL, NC, PT, library, university etc.
 
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