Stonehenge

Ramesses-Rules · Apr 24, 2012

s.bernbaum said:
Yes, Industrious sure makes a difference. I always play random leaders (with their usual empires). In my current game, I got an Industrious leader for the first time (despite having played for years - RNG, go figure), Augustus. Although my poor starting territory let the early wonders be taken by other empires, I have really cleaned up the rest, while still building the largest military in the game and teching ahead of them all. This is only Noble but I would not have even considered all that wonder building without the industrious trait.

That's very true. Once I get to Organized Religion+Forges (Ramesses builds forges and temples faster than other buildings), I rarely lose a wonder-building race unless I get a very late start. Industrious+Spiritual is a great combination for Cultural Victory. So I need to keep that in mind when giving advice based on how I play to guys who play other leaders. As you know, it is important to match your style of play to take advantage of your leader's traits, but we sometimes forget that when talking here on the forum about what is "easy" or "impossible" to do based unwittingly on our limited experience with our favorite leaders. I'm just sayin'.

plasmacannon · Apr 24, 2012

Don't forget that when Stonehenge and monuments become obsolete, not only can you not build them anymore, but Stonehenge's monuments go away. Where normally built monuments stay and retain their culture bonus, which has usually doubled in your earliest cities by then.

I used to build it, but with random leaders, I rarely do.
There are other priorities, that one must establish first.
I'd prefer to find out where my horse and copper are, before researching mysticism.
I'd also prefer to get The Great Lighthouse or Oracle other than Stonehenge.
GLH requires a Lighthouse first, so production must be invested there, which takes time.
One of the AIs tends to build it, which means they don't have a stack coming after me.

If I happened to have the IND trait and happened to have Stone in my capitol radius and happened to start off with mysticism, and happened to have CHA or UB to also benefit from it, well then it would seem like a quick building to construct.
Then again, if I have multiple crazy AIs near me (Monty, Shaka etc.) I could still skip it, in favor of some other tactic, like charot rushing Monty before he become a pest.

Ramesses-Rules · Apr 24, 2012

In my current game, I built Stonehenge and Oracle in Thebes without access to stone. No problem. If I didn't have Horses in Thebes, I probably would not have tried it, though. And, if Alexander is my neighbor, I always build military before all else. As far as the Great Lighthouse, it is always possible to build it in the second city if it has good production capacity.

Seraiel · Apr 24, 2012

On Deity that will be difficult Ramesses.

I agree 100% with Plasmacannon, there are simply other priorities, I also used to build it, I don't anymore, maybe if starting on Stone and finding Masonry in a GH but only to let the city grow, Settlers / Workers are definately more important, and Oracle is definately more important.

On Deity, SH goes between 3000 BC and 2500 BC, at that time, one barely has a 2nd city, absolutely no ressources to build a SH unless settling on Stone, after 2nd city at 2500 BC comes 3rd city, then comes Oracle which has to be completed till 2000 BC to get it in 8.5 / 10 games, again, no free production for anything.

One maybe can go for GLH (plz not TGL, TGL is the great Library) if the 2nd city is rich on Forrests and can overtake Worker / Settler production and if 1st city is coastal, maybe also the other way round, but those are rare cases, GLH goes between 2200 BC and 1800 BC on the highest difficulty.

And the argument stated above, that from hammer-side, 4 Monuments are SH, that's simply the wrong point of view, 4 Monuments in 4 cities are like 1, everybody can spare 1 Forrest in 1 city, but who can actually spare 6 Forrests in the Capital without even having a 2nd city and doesn't get boxed in later?

Sera

digitalcraft · Apr 24, 2012

Generally I'll start if the game has gone unusually late without it being built, 99/100 times that translates in to some fail gold to put towards keeping a high tech rate as long as I can.

jordiflor · Apr 25, 2012

plasmacannon said:
Don't forget that when Stonehenge and monuments become obsolete, not only can you not build them anymore, but Stonehenge's monuments go away. Where normally built monuments stay and retain their culture bonus, which has usually doubled in your earliest cities by then.

I don't understand what you mean by "has usually doubled". Monuments provide +1 :culture:

which can be then multiplied by cathedrals, mandirs..., Free Spech. But that +1 :culture:

remains +1, isn't it?

On the other hand, I don't bother too much about Monuments disappearing with Astronomy. They sole goal was to pop city borders to BFC. In Astronomy times I have thousand other ways to produce culture.
That said, I try to build Stonehenge if leader is Ind and/or Stone is available in BFC, otherwise I chop monuments until I switch to Caste System.

King Pluto · Apr 25, 2012

jordiflor said:
I don't understand what you mean by "has usually doubled". Monuments provide +1 which can be then multiplied by cathedrals, mandirs..., Free Spech. But that +1 remains +1, isn't it?

Building Culture output is doubled after 1,000 years.

Ramesses-Rules · Apr 25, 2012

Seraiel said:
On Deity that will be difficult Ramesses.

I agree 100% with Plasmacannon, there are simply other priorities, I also used to build it, I don't anymore, maybe if starting on Stone and finding Masonry in a GH but only to let the city grow, Settlers / Workers are definately more important, and Oracle is definately more important.

On Deity, SH goes between 3000 BC and 2500 BC, at that time, one barely has a 2nd city, absolutely no ressources to build a SH unless settling on Stone, after 2nd city at 2500 BC comes 3rd city, then comes Oracle which has to be completed till 2000 BC to get it in 8.5 / 10 games, again, no free production for anything.

One maybe can go for GLH (plz not TGL, TGL is the great Library) if the 2nd city is rich on Forrests and can overtake Worker / Settler production and if 1st city is coastal, maybe also the other way round, but those are rare cases, GLH goes between 2200 BC and 1800 BC on the highest difficulty.

And the argument stated above, that from hammer-side, 4 Monuments are SH, that's simply the wrong point of view, 4 Monuments in 4 cities are like 1, everybody can spare 1 Forrest in 1 city, but who can actually spare 6 Forrests in the Capital without even having a 2nd city and doesn't get boxed in later?

Sera

Every time I move up a level I have to adapt. I have never tried Deity yet, but from what you say, I will stop building SH. I don't move up a level until I can win consistently at current level. From what everyone says, about all you have time for early at Deity is making defensive units, settlers, workers. So be it. But at Immortal, I can have 6+ good cities, build multiple early wonders, and win Cultural Victory.

jordiflor · Apr 25, 2012

King Pluto said:
Building Culture output is doubled after 1,000 years.

I have never heard or realized this point!!! :eek:

It's amazing... after all these years!!!!

Well.... this gonna change my earlier opinion. A monument built in 2000BC will produce +4 :culture:

in 1000AD, won't it? This is quite different

EDIT: I misunderstood this article... it's not every 1000 years, just once. So it will produce +4 :culture:

with Free Speech.

karadoc · Apr 25, 2012

jordiflor said:
I have never heard or realized this point!!! It's amazing... after all these years!!!!

Well.... this gonna change my earlier opinion. A monument built in 2000BC will produce +4 in 1000AD, won't it? This is quite different

Nar. It only gets doubled once.

MilesBeyond · Apr 25, 2012

If I'm going for a wonder that early, I'll usually save the hammers for the Mids, which I find to be substantially more valuable (the biggest obstacle to growth early on is happiness, which is nicely dealt with by either HR or Rep). Someone earlier mentioned something about rushing Libraries for early cultural growth, which I've experimented with as well. I find that if the city has good enough tiles to support it in the immediate 9 tiles and will probably have a decent beaker output, replacing a Monument with a Library can be a good idea.

If you're Charismatic, that changes things a bit, of course.

Stonehenge

Ramesses-Rules

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plasmacannon

Emperor

Ramesses-Rules

King

Seraiel

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digitalcraft

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karadoc

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