Mazatl(and caulli) Changes, Good Balance, A few BIG problems.

Nope, he has harder prereqs than Mardero

They both require Malevolent Designs. Miquiztli also requires poisons.
Poisons is like a turn or two by the time you pick up Malevolent Designs, assuming youd on't already have it (Bad assumption for the Lizards). Mizquitli requires a level 6 assassin. Mardero requires the AV Holy City.

The healing after battle is what makes him special. It allows him to assasinate repeatedly, and makes up for the inability of recon units to learn March. I really wouldn't like to see him lose it.
He's a living unit with CHanneling 3 and Body Magic. I am pretty sure he does not need 30 freaking% as an assassin, when he can self-Regenerate, or someone elsel can.. Cannibalize is /plenty/ for an assassin (As in, the people who target the weakest unit in a stack on the offense) and won't make you impossible to mob down.


Against a str 14 unit, dealing >30% damage in a battle isn't too difficult. At the stage of the game he comes, you also get Eidolons. Or paladins, take your pick. Having Arquebuses is also certainly possible, and I don't think Berserkers are too much of a stretch. Miquiztli is a late game hero.

Late game or not, every hero can be mobbed down in their tech level. And you just mentioned Tier 4 units;

And bear in mind this is a hero; The only T4s who are absolutely guaranteed experience are Immortals. And it's not a Super Robot Wars Barrier; Breaking 30% doesn't mean all the damage goes through, it just means lasting damage was dealt.
 
Poisons is like a turn or two by the time you pick up Malevolent Designs, assuming youd on't already have it (Bad assumption for the Lizards). Mizquitli requires a level 6 assassin. Mardero requires the AV Holy City.

I'm looking at Civ4UnitInfos.xml right now. Mardero requires Ashen Veil State religion, Ashen Veil in the city, and Malevolent Designs tech. He does not require the holy city. You're thinking of Meshabber


He's a living unit with CHanneling 3 and Body Magic. I am pretty sure he does not need 30 freaking% as an assassin, when he can self-Regenerate, or someone elsel can.. Cannibalize is /plenty/ for an assassin (As in, the people who target the weakest unit in a stack on the offense) and won't make you impossible to mob down.

I do agree, 30% makes him almost impossible to mob. I think that's a good thing.

I'd rather see his defence reduced, so that you can go wipe him out with a single T4 unit like any other assasin. Mobbing is just not the done thing when dealing with assasins.



And bear in mind this is a hero; The only T4s who are absolutely guaranteed experience are Immortals. And it's not a Super Robot Wars Barrier; Breaking 30% doesn't mean all the damage goes through, it just means lasting damage was dealt.

Something also to bear in mnd. He only recovers that 30% after winning a battle. There are quite a few sources of damage outside of direct combat. Ranged attacks, and magic being most notable. Weaken him with other methods, then go in for the kill. Like you'd generally do with most powerful enemies.

Give me 4 archers and a paladin. Miquiztli is toast. And the tech requirements are the same.

I agree that such rapid healing makes him a difficult opponent, but unlike say... Iras, his strength isn't so great that you can't just wipe him out with a single experienced unit.
 
I'm looking at Civ4UnitInfos.xml right now. Mardero requires Ashen Veil State religion, Ashen Veil in the city, and Malevolent Designs tech. He does not require the holy city. You're thinking of Meshabber
Ah, so I am.


I do agree, 30% makes him almost impossible to mob. I think that's a good thing.

I'd rather see his defence reduced, so that you can go wipe him out with a single T4 unit like any other assasin. Mobbing is just not the done thing when dealing with assasins.
Right. Because they die in one attack anyway. Here's what I don't get; You seem to want him to be an offensive monster and a defensive weakling. He has Marksmen, thus with the exceptiojn of fighting Bannor he will pretty much never need that 30% to recover from his fights. Why do you find that 30% integral to him?

Here's a small testimonial; Korrinna the Black Lady has 2 first strikes, and no immunity to them. With capped Combat and Drill, she was destroying higher tech levelled people. After teching into military strategy specifically to get her blitz, it was a rare moment when I had to stop attacking before she was out of movement. Despite a city attack penalty. I'm honestly not sure what would have happened if she'd been attacked solo in the field, but replacing the -20% with terrain defense modifiers can really only help. I do not doubt that Mizquitli should be superior in stats, as he's a hero who comes in with T4, rather then T2. But should he have the same effect of being able to eat through potentially endless numbers of higher tier units *when there is no higher unit tier*?

Also, final point, your desire for Mizquitli is extremely counterintuitive. Assassins specialize in one on one combat. However powerful, it makes more sense for them to be deliberately set up to be mobbed down then for them to be set up that they must die to a single stroke.

Something also to bear in mnd. He only recovers that 30% after winning a battle. There are quite a few sources of damage outside of direct combat. Ranged attacks, and magic being most notable. Weaken him with other methods, then go in for the kill. Like you'd generally do with most powerful enemies.
AoE magic is broken anyway (Possible exception of Maelstrom, and I have pretty serious doubts about that); All other magic damage is in fact a direct battle (Summons).

And, well. Archers aren't going to be able to bring him down that far (Unless you're talking abouta Paladin that has exceptionally high exp) unless Mizquitli is alone, rather then stacked, where he will indeed be easier. But those had still better be trained archers (Or perhaps not; Longbowmen/Arquebuses may a much better damage cap then Archers)

I agree that such rapid healing makes him a difficult opponent, but unlike say... Iras, his strength isn't so great that you can't just wipe him out with a single experienced unit.

Uh, it's not /impossible/ but it's extremely unlikely unless you're the Luchuirp or the Infernals. (And maybe Scions. Is Undead immunity to Unholy, or resistance?). "HIs strength isn't that great"? It is one of the highest strength ratings on a hero! Most heroes are actually fairly low in base strength, even counting their weapons. They just have an Exp amount of ridiculous to make up for it.

Note: Keyword, one of. The Dragons and the Avatars outright top him, but most heroes simply don't stack up.
 
Assasins specialise in stealth, and having the advantrage. They're designed to fight on their own terms, which is why they generally have high attack, and low defence.

If his defence were lowered to 10, most T4 units would have reasonable odds against him. If you don't have some really expeirenced units by the time you get to that stage of the game, unless you're Sidar, you're doing something wrong.

In a recent bannor game I played, I had two lv8 pladins as soon as I hit Righteousness, and I always have a squad of well trained archers. The xp from ranged attacks makes upgrading them easy.

Unlike the balancing complaints about many other units, remember that Miquztli is a hero. there's only one of him. Life III aside, he's never coming back once you kill him. Surround him with archers, use your chosen religion to your advantage. If you're Order, you can get +1 strength on any unit you want to throw at him. Overlords and AV have powerful AOE spells for basic priests, which can devastate almost anything. And even just spamming arquebus ranged attacks at him, is going to bring him down eventually. Or you could use flanking horsemen to weaken him, he won't get health back from battles where the enemy attacks then retreats.


It's also worth bearing in ind, that Miquiztli is the Cualli's ONLY hero. They can't adopt a religion and get a pair of free religions heroes like most other races can. By the time the cualli get Miquiztli, I can have Valin Phanuel and Sphener, both highly trained.

I think a little defensive nerf is all he needs, if even that. Try having a look at the Mazatl hero, he's a str18 dragon with the ability to scare defenders out of a city, and be invincible y hiding on mountaintops.
 
Assasins specialise in stealth, and having the advantrage. They're designed to fight on their own terms, which is why they generally have high attack, and low defence.
And this justifies him mulching armies because....? I agree in full that he should be able to Keep On Trucking; 10% And Regenerate is PLENTY. I don't see why you think he needs 30%

If his defence were lowered to 10, most T4 units would have reasonable odds against him. If you don't have some really expeirenced units by the time you get to that stage of the game, unless you're Sidar, you're doing something wrong.
10 defense is still pretty hefty. An /experienced/ one, I suppose.

In a recent bannor game I played, I had two lv8 pladins as soon as I hit Righteousness, and I always have a squad of well trained archers. The xp from ranged attacks makes upgrading them easy.
Perhaps. What happens when he mulches your archer complement down in a turn with no damage to show for it? Actually, he won't mulch your archers first, I suspect; He'll mulch the folks who can track him down, since See Invisibility is such an investment of combat power. Assuming he's travelling alone, which I consider a dangerous assumption. Perhaps mercifully, it takes a team game for him to get Shadows, if he even can.
On the other hand, Shadow Priests of Agruonn are just as invisible as he is.

Unlike the balancing complaints about many other units, remember that Miquztli is a hero. there's only one of him. Life III aside, he's never coming back once you kill him. Surround him with archers, use your chosen religion to your advantage. If you're Order, you can get +1 strength on any unit you want to throw at him. Overlords and AV have powerful AOE spells for basic priests, which can devastate almost anything. And even just spamming arquebus ranged attacks at him, is going to bring him down eventually. Or you could use flanking horsemen to weaken him, he won't get health back from battles where the enemy attacks then retreats.
Ring of Fire and Tsunami are broken! I don't take to "Rely on broken things" as a very good suggested counter; It's not that it doesn't work, it's that it's not a good way to balance things. And you're still acting like he's alone and you get a full health stack of whatever-the-hell-you-want. What happens when he's supported? Who has their heroes operate out in the field alone?

Granted, he's INVISIBLE (As in, without special stuff, you will never find him), so the odds are better he's alone then normal heroes.

It's also worth bearing in ind, that Miquiztli is the Cualli's ONLY hero. They can't adopt a religion and get a pair of free religions heroes like most other races can. By the time the cualli get Miquiztli, I can have Valin Phanuel and Sphener, both highly trained.
Yes, if you're the ONLY ORder player, you can reliably get Valin and Sphener. It's a RELIGIOUS Hero, not a CIV hero; That means you're not guaranteed it even when you follow the religion.

I think a little defensive nerf is all he needs, if even that. Try having a look at the Mazatl hero, he's a str18 dragon with the ability to scare defenders out of a city, and be invincible y hiding on mountaintops.
Str 18, yes.. but has no Hero promotion and lacks defensive bonuses, as well as an inability to pick up fun little things like *A 30% RECOVERY OF HEALTH AFTER EVERY SINGLE BATTLE*. And if Roar can fear you out of a town, it's mucked up, I agree; Fear should probably not scatter Fortified units, or those in a town.

Also hiding on a mountaintop makes you invincible, but also useless, unless there's a 3x3 cluster of mountains (Not impossible but probably improbable). You're the one who puts stock in longbowmen and acts like you can get whatever you want whenever and wherever you want :p

I don't know why you're acting like I'm saying he should have his stats completely destroyed and he should be nerfed into oblivion. I'm really only arguing that he needs to lose the 20% Heal after Combat from Aeron's Chosen, which you seem to have completely lost track of.
 
Well I guess I'm kinda disagreeing with you both in that I don't think he needs any changes or nerf at all. And a specific example related to healing after combat - do you think that the whole system of illusions should be gotten rid of? Should the Black Mirror be removed from the Svarts? Because they work on the same principles and could be exploited by a player just as well. I'm convinced there are more than plenty of ways to combat him, certainly not one of the first heroes I'd consider weakening.
 
Ring of Fire and Tsunami are broken! I don't take to "Rely on broken things" as a very good suggested counter; It's not that it doesn't work, it's that it's not a good way to balance things. And you're still acting like he's alone and you get a full health stack of whatever-the-hell-you-want. What happens when he's supported? Who has their heroes operate out in the field alone?

Who says they're broken?
You click the button, they damage stuff. What's broken about it?


Aeron's Chosen was a special event in FFH, whereby some really powerful assasin would aqquire the promotion. It was ported into FF exactly as-is, and given to Miquiztli, representing that he's the most devoted and appreciated follower of Aeron (Agruonn)

If you think his healing is really that bad, then perhaps removing cannibalize would be better. But 10% really isn't that much. I've seen cannibals get overwhelmed plenty of times.

Miquiztli is the thing that really stands out. He's the most unique and original thing that the cualli have, a relentless killing machine. I'd be cautious about nerfing him. By the time T4 comes around, you should have plenty more than useless cannon fodder to throw at him.
 
Who says they're broken?
You click the button, they damage stuff. What's broken about it?
One unit ruins a stack. I guess I could see Maelstrom being fine, since that unit is also Assassin bait and requires time and patience, but Tsunami and Ring of Fire turn the appropriate casters into single stack ruining units that are mass produced, and don't particularly care about your stats. Tsunami arguably obsoletes navies altogether (More practically, it's combined with quick transports to move the priests around at a pace faster then molasses). How are they /not/ broken, when single units ruin stacks?

Aeron's Chosen was a special event in FFH, whereby some really powerful assasin would aqquire the promotion. It was ported into FF exactly as-is, and given to Miquiztli, representing that he's the most devoted and appreciated follower of Aeron (Agruonn)
Yeah, I noticed all of that. I'm not sure on the relevance, but it was not lost on me.

If you think his healing is really that bad, then perhaps removing cannibalize would be better. But 10% really isn't that much. I've seen cannibals get overwhelmed plenty of times.
Right. I've seen and had cannibals lost. That is kind of the lions share of why I am okay with him having cannibalize. Units like Bone Golems may defeat a somewhat disproportionate number of units comparable to strength, but not an overwhelming number of them.

Miquiztli is the thing that really stands out. He's the most unique and original thing that the cualli have, a relentless killing machine. I'd be cautious about nerfing him. By the time T4 comes around, you should have plenty more than useless cannon fodder to throw at him.

I don't think I would call him the most unique. I can't say I've seen any attendant stories that go along with FFH or mods for it, but he seems like just an amped up Priest of Agruonn with a poetic description, rather then an expounded upon lore character

Valkrionn Honestly, 30% is not a whole lot. He's very easy to take down if he has no backup as it is... I have NEVER had an issue with him, even on deity. I don't see how he's such an immortal stack killer like you describe. Yes, 30% is alot... But he's still only 13.
Well, the AI is sort of ******ed, regardless of difficulty. I can not entirely say that I am surprised that they can not use a hero that seems best applied with liberal doses of recon, difficult-for-the-AI-to-obtain (Requires XP) units, and a knowledge of where precisely to strike (See Invis granting units, off the top of my head.) That does somewhat assuage my worries, but.. I am still fairly concerned with the shenanigans a human can pull off, rather then what a fairly dumb computer does.

I mean, were they really running him in without support? Sort of a case in point, really.
 
Aeron's Chosen was a special event in FFH, whereby some really powerful assasin would aqquire the promotion. It was ported into FF exactly as-is, and given to Miquiztli, representing that he's the most devoted and appreciated follower of Aeron (Agruonn)

If you think his healing is really that bad, then perhaps removing cannibalize would be better. But 10% really isn't that much. I've seen cannibals get overwhelmed plenty of times.

Almost true - when Aeron's Chosen was given to Miquiztli, the only thing it did was allow you to spread the guild (which granted bonus XP to any recon units built in the city). The later changes are post-guild removal, so aren't necessarily intended for Miquiztli...

Lorewise it's not inappropriate, but gameplay-wise the implications were never really considered for the current version of Aeron's Chosen...
 
Lorewise it's not inappropriate, but gameplay-wise the implications were never really considered for the current version of Aeron's Chosen...

Well, the gameplay implications are being considered now, and I consider it awesome.

Miquiztli is one of the reasons I might like to play Cualli. The thought of having a lategame hero with such regeneration abilities greatly intrigues me. He's far from the most powerful hero in the game, compare him with Chalid for instance. or any of the dragons.

I'd rather not see him nerfed, or at least, not much.
 
Again, I think my point earlier is worth consideration, at least I think the mechanic is very similar, maybe it was changed in FF, but - doesn't the Black Mirror create Illusions that heal like completely? You can kill like 50 AI units without anything else being touched - all you do is pull it off your hero and assign to a stronger Tier 4 unit. In other words, the whole system of Illusions is WAY stronger than Miquiztli - and in both cases it's just humans abusing the AI since another human player really could avoid them - the super-spells like Chalid are really worse from a human-on-human perspective.
 
I said it before, Mizquizli is by far the most broken (read unbalanced) mass butcher in the game. But I also said, he is fine as he is. The effort required to build him up to insane power is proportionally insane. I for one would never take an assassin with pathetic 26 xp and upgrade him into Miz. I'll take all promotions recon can get but disciples cannot first, even if they are totally useless. Sure, if I manage to get Aeron's chosen for the assassin, it will be far easier to pull it off but it is time consuming. Miz is my second favourite pet unit ever, behind only Brigit.

Furthermore, Miz comes so late that by the time you get him, you'll want to wrap up the game in short order.
 
Again, I think my point earlier is worth consideration, at least I think the mechanic is very similar, maybe it was changed in FF, but - doesn't the Black Mirror create Illusions that heal like completely? You can kill like 50 AI units without anything else being touched - all you do is pull it off your hero and assign to a stronger Tier 4 unit. In other words, the whole system of Illusions is WAY stronger than Miquiztli - and in both cases it's just humans abusing the AI since another human player really could avoid them - the super-spells like Chalid are really worse from a human-on-human perspective.

I thought Illusions were capped at 75% damage though?
 
I was just using the Black Mirror, any opponent seemed to be left at 0.0 if I won the fight. It's rather powerful, but has the lame side effect that your assassin gets virtually no exp for the battle.
 
Sorry for the necro, but...

I've been playing the Cualli & I'm just wondering, how do their sacrifice mechanics work?

The Blood & Sacrifice civic works just fine & I see the button whereby units can sac themselves once you've installed the altars, but...

Does that actually do anything? I can't really see that it adds to research & I don't think its empowering my priests, either.

What's the strategy there?
 
In case FF comes out of hibernation I'll throw down my thoughts on the Mazatl after playing an in depth game on immortal.
1. Jungle/Swamp spread is very slow, I'm on turn 261 (normal speed) and my capital has acquired two jungle tiles (about the same for other old cities). I understand that you get a lot of bonuses from these improvements and having them spread too fast would be overpowered, but I think it could be sped up a lot without running into that problem.

2. It would be extremely nice to have some sort of high priest or other unit that has access to heal as the vanilla agnostic civs do.

3. Not having any hero until you get the Wyven is really painful. There's really no vanilla precedent for a hero situation that is that bad. Alric gets Wilboman, the Sheam get religious heroes, etc. Maybe adding some sort of quasi-religious hero at priesthood?
 
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