Civilization IV Leader Traits: Self-Actualization, Axemen, and You

I just played a game with Darius (Fin/Org), and I'm really skeptical about "Organized". With the -50% to civic maintenance, only a small fraction of my money was saved (nowhere near the benifits of financial). The double production speed can be useful, but again, it's certainly not as good as the boast in production speed given by Expansive. I'm really not sure why so many people think this is such a great trait. On the other hand I think Expansive might be overlooked (and btw, Expansive doesn't double the production speed of worker, it's "only" a 25% bonus).

Also, is there another "classification" of the traits ? I'm curious to see how many people agree with you on the strongest traits, I think many would get Spiritual out of this category and get Charismatic, perhaps even Organized, in it (the best would be to have some sort of wiki to build a strategy guides with the input of many different players). Also, it's quite possible that aggressive, in mulitplayer games, is much better than against the AI.
 
If you're not constantly on the edge of running your Civ into the ground because of how big your Empire is, you're not really seeing the best of what Organized has to give.
 
I'm curious to see how many people agree with you on the strongest traits, I think many would get Spiritual out of this category

I agree that many would, but I don't think that they would come off well if forced to defend that position. Disclaimer, it's not clear to me yet how much of the Spiritual advantage has been eaten up by the changes in BtS.
 
I agree that many would, but I don't think that they would come off well if forced to defend that position. Disclaimer, it's not clear to me yet how much of the Spiritual advantage has been eaten up by the changes in BtS.

That's a good point. Between the new Golden Age capabilities and the Cristo Redentor world wonder, the benefits of Spiritual are somewhat easier to access for a non-Spiritual civ. In the latest ALC game (Peter), as was able to switch civics a handful of times in the mid-game, anarchy-free, thanks to two Golden Ages.

I'll re-evaluate it--Spiritual may have dropped to a medium-grade trait, through no fault of its own.
 
I think the classification made by Sisiutil is really good, but I also think a quite different perspective must be taken for multiplayer games. I've read a couple of times that both aggressive and creative were considered among the strongest traits for multiplayer games, while they are both considered mediocre traits for SP.

If you're not constantly on the edge of running your Civ into the ground because of how big your Empire is, you're not really seeing the best of what Organized has to give.

I'll try again, I'm an aggressive player, in theory, I should like it :)
 
I think the classification made by Sisiutil is really good, but I also think a quite different perspective must be taken for multiplayer games. I've read a couple of times that both aggressive and creative were considered among the strongest traits for multiplayer games, while they are both considered mediocre traits for SP.

I have yet to try multi-player (which still surprises me), so the article was written specifically for single-player games. From what little I know about MP, your statement rings true. Kublai Khan must be a very popular MP leader.
 
I'm no where near as experienced as Sisiutil, but I've been playing MP pretty consistently for a few weeks now.

I rated the traits (and civs and leaders, in the same post) here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5826451#post5826451

Specifically, here are my trait ratings, from an MP FFA Pangaea perspective, with an emphasis on warmongering quickly and powerfully:
Agg +3
Chm +2
Cre +1
Exp +1.5
Fin +2
Imp +2
Ind 0
Org +0.5
Phi 0
Pro 0
Spi +0.5

Please feel free to disagree/comment/critique/provide your own ratings for MP either here or in that thread :) I have a penchant for enjoying analysis :)

Here's a bit more on why I chose to rate the traits this way.

Agg +3
Aggressive is a free promotion, one that doesn't take XP. It also reduces the cost of a Barracks, which you'll want in practically every city (there are times when you must go 100% military production -- e.g. you are being attacked and need to push the enemy back).

Chm +2
As you're going to be doing a lot of fighting, cheaper promotions means you'll have stronger units -- as well as being able to better counter enemy units by having more promotions available faster. As most MP fighting takes place outside of cities, City Raider is of less use than in SP, making the Cover/Pinch/Shock promotions and their like all the more important -- Charismatic lets you get them that much faster.

Cre +1
Creative isn't bad, but it's not as strong as the other traits -- while pushing an opponent's borders out is very doable early on, and forgoing a monument to get a BFC is helpful, Creative's strength starts to plummet right around Construction. Those wide cultural borders are no help at all vs. an enemy stack complete with catapults to tear down your carefully built up cultural defense. Cre is great for making an early land grab, but unlike the AI, enemy human players will not tolerate your borders slowly pushing into them -- they'll go take the city instead and Creative itself does little to help counter anything they can do.

Exp +1.5
Expansive is strong because of the 25% worker creation speed, and that worker advantage matters a lot early game -- the bonus health also lets you skip building aqueducts until a bit later, meaning you'll be better able to focus on your military. And since Hereditary Rule already takes care of Happiness issues, you'll be able to grow happier and healthier cities than everyone else, working more tiles. Do not underestimate the 25% worker production, since early game workers matter so much.

Fin +2
Most MP games are CE based, since SE is just too micro intensive for the Blazing turn timer that majority of MP games are played with. Cottage spamming (with proper military forces to catch and kill any potential pillagers) along with coastal tiles makes Financial get a solid tech advantage thanks to its increased commerce. And since there's typically no tech trading in MP, that solid tech advantage means you can build better units faster than your opponents.

Imp +2
Faster settler production is handy for getting your second, third and maybe fourth cities out that much faster. After that though, you'll likely just be taking enemy cities. A good thing to keep in mind, and one that I learned the painful way, is only settle great cities in MP -- don't make a lot of little mediocre cities. There's nothing wrong with leaving bad land unsettled -- in fact, it can invite an over-expansive opponent to settle there, and the maintenance costs based on # of Cities spikes up pretty quickly on Small, so you need to make every city count.

Finally, Imperialistic provides 100% GG emergence, which means you can get Military Instructors into your top production cities all that much faster, giving you better promoted units. And 100% GG emergence is a benefit that starts early and lasts all game, thus solidifying the power of the Imperialistic trait.

Ind 0
While faster forges are nice, you won't be building wonders in MP FFAs... Why not? Because building wonder incurs a huge opportunity cost in terms of military, and if someone else builds a wonder, then you can go take it from with all the troops you've built while they were spending time building a wonder.

Org +0.5
Games are typically decided before Organized really gets to shine -- Organized starts its full power when you have a large empire with expensive civics, but most MP FFAs are decided by Grenadiers at the latest, so empires and civics just aren't that expensive yet. Courthouses, however, are nice, especially how they help with EP now.

Phi 0
Unless you're a micro god and and run an SE on a Blazing turn timer, I'd avoid Phi.

Pro 0
Protective, while it can have some uses with gimmick archer rushes, is primarily a defensive oriented trait. The problem with archers in MP play is that while they're great for defending cities, they are horrible for defending land -- what do I mean? You can have a stack of archers in a city, but they're not going to be able to go out and stop enemy stacks from pillaging your land to nothingness. Protective enhances archers, and archers just aren't that good in MP from what I've found.

Spi +0.5
Spiritual is handy for early civic switching (Slavery, Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy) but there really aren't that much civic switches you'll be doing, since you'll likely be at war or at least on war footing all game. Also, by time time Spiritual really shines -- when you have a nice of civics to switch between -- most MP games are long over, and if they're not, you can (ab)use Golden Ages or even build Cristo if you have the hammers to spare and have a secure military situation.
 
Sisiutil, the Charismatic entry is still/again messed up, most of it is missing. Guess that post got too long.
 
Sisiutil, the Charismatic entry is still/again messed up, most of it is missing. Guess that post got too long.

Yeah, I'm going to rework this into a PDF document, like the Beginner's strategy guide. I'm tired of the forum messing up the posts every time I try to edit them. Please be patient.
 
Second, IMO, the best buildings for this trait are Libraries, Universities, Observatories, and Laboratories. The buildings you listed multiply gold, and your goal in a CE is to maximize your research slider, which lessens the effectiveness of the buildings you listed.

That comment about Financial was said a long time ago, but mistake remains in the newest version still.

Also, why isn't Universal Suffrage listed as useful civic for Financial trait? It gives 1 hammer from towns so if Free Speech with 2 commerce from towns is listed, it should be too.

A few typos:
- You talk about your top 3 on page 8 (should be top 2 after Spiritual changed from Strong to Medium).
- You don't mention that Spiritual gives dps for Cristo Redentor.
- You don't list new Mobile SAM or Anti-Tank in Aggressive trait section.

Otherwise the PDF is excellent work. Thank you, Sisiutil!
 
That comment about Financial was said a long time ago, but mistake remains in the newest version still.

Also, why isn't Universal Suffrage listed as useful civic for Financial trait? It gives 1 hammer from towns so if Free Speech with 2 commerce from towns is listed, it should be too.

A few typos:
- You talk about your top 3 on page 8 (should be top 2 after Spiritual changed from Strong to Medium).
- You don't mention that Spiritual gives dps for Cristo Redentor.
- You don't list new Mobile SAM or Anti-Tank in Aggressive trait section.

Otherwise the PDF is excellent work. Thank you, Sisiutil!
I'll make those corrections when I get a chance.
 
I'll make those corrections when I get a chance.

Also, why you mention Stable as good building for Aggressive, but not Airport. The trait doesn't give production bonus to either of them, so I think that either both or none should be mentioned. If you're going to mention it in Aggressive section in future, you could add it to Charismatic section same time too!
 
Something doesn't seem right. At the top of page 8 you say you have a Top Three traits, but you have only included two up to that point (Fin and Phil). Then you mention Spiritual as a top three. Then you start the section about Spiritual as a Medium strength trait.

Where does Spiritual rank?
 
Just scrolled through the new pdf... its definitly a coo reference to start with :)

but I had some notes:

expansive only gives a 25% production boost to workers in BtS

Protective got some boosts (Walls & castles reduce the effect of bombardment, castles get a espionage boost... so these buildings are better, oh and gunpowder units can advance through the drill path, making it usefull for the infa vs. arty type of conquests), so I'm not sure if its really "the only weak" trait anymore...
 
Something doesn't seem right. At the top of page 8 you say you have a Top Three traits, but you have only included two up to that point (Fin and Phil). Then you mention Spiritual as a top three. Then you start the section about Spiritual as a Medium strength trait.

Where does Spiritual rank?

As of BtS I rank it in the middle, and my reasons are laid out in the document. The top 3 vs. 2 references obviously slipped by me when I revised the document. I'll add it to the list of fixes I need to do, with other things like the change to Expansive's Workers in BtS.
 
Tiniest of corrections:
Augustus Caesar is missing from the list of Imperialistic Leaders.

There are now 9 Industrial leaders (you list all nine, but then say that Industrial only has 8).
 
I've also taken a bit of time to make this handy-dandy trait reference chart, which is attached.
 

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