Experience with properties....

JacenSaracen

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
36
I've run into something potentially gamebreaking. I am playing at Deity & Nightmare mode, and after carefully ensuring that my cities have plenty of controls for crime, disease and education, I have begun to notice every 3-8 turns or so, every city in my entire empire will take a massive increase in crime and disease, while simultaneously taking a massive decrease in education. It rebounds somewhat over the next few turns, but typically gains less than 30% of the loss. It is getting to the point that each city needs to have 20+ entertainers, health workers and cops, and I need to add one or two more every other turn. I've looked all over these forums and cannot find a single mechanic that hits empire-wide in such a massive fashion.

Help!
 
The latest full.... (no SVN), with the Dangerous Animal pack, 750 turns into 1001 turn game. I am late ancient with one other civ (whom I have yet to even meet!), and I have 15 cities, with the largest being at 22 pop. The map is truly massive (larger than is officially supported by C2C).
 
I'm not sure what could cause that. But it sounds a bit like what was happening with trade influence and that was disabled - but that was happening locally, not nationally.

But if that gives any clue, you may be worsening the problem of it sloshing back by having so much in place to fight it. Try not reacting and see if it settles.
 
Can you link to where in the SVN thread the trade issue was discussed and/or changed?
 
I have given the game a few turns to rebound, and it never does fully. For example, I would have a city, size 16 with +120 education drop to something like +10 in a single round. The following round it might be +18, the one after that +25 and so on.... as you can see, it would take a long time to rebound fully, and by that time, the NEXT one-turn drop would kill it....
 
Are you looking at the +x after the actual level of Education?
You have 2 numbers, looking possibly like this: 452 (+5)
on every property.
The first is the actual Education resource number, the second is the change to that number over the past turn.
The one you need to concern yourself with is the first as the second is only an indication, and often as it's only based on one turn, very erratic and often wrong over the course of 10+ turns.

If it's actually the level you are looking at then drops like that happen when the resource spreads to the plots around and through Trade Routes to other cities, when the level in those cities and plots are sufficiently much lower to enable the trickle down effect.
THAT one takes hundreds of turns to level out.

Cheers
 
Can you link to where in the SVN thread the trade issue was discussed and/or changed?

No... it was over a year ago. Too lost in the heap to find.
 
Are you looking at the +x after the actual level of Education?
You have 2 numbers, looking possibly like this: 452 (+5)
on every property.
The first is the actual Education resource number, the second is the change to that number over the past turn.
The one you need to concern yourself with is the first as the second is only an indication, and often as it's only based on one turn, very erratic and often wrong over the course of 10+ turns.

If it's actually the level you are looking at then drops like that happen when the resource spreads to the plots around and through Trade Routes to other cities, when the level in those cities and plots are sufficiently much lower to enable the trickle down effect.
THAT one takes hundreds of turns to level out.

Cheers

Yeah, I know about the first part, the second part of your post seems possible.... for lack of a better explanation. I noticed it happened again on the last turn, a 35-100 point drop (education) or gain (crime and disease) in all 15 cities. I noticed it followed one of my cities going up in population by one. Could that have triggered it?
 
Yeah, I know about the first part, the second part of your post seems possible.... for lack of a better explanation. I noticed it happened again on the last turn, a 35-100 point drop (education) or gain (crime and disease) in all 15 cities. I noticed it followed one of my cities going up in population by one. Could that have triggered it?

A one round adjustment that severe I wouldn't think it would be based on increasing pop but maybe. The population does make it harder and harder to keep the crime, disease and education at good levels - that's the main factor actually. At higher difficulties, the difference between the drain per population is more intense than it is at lower difficulties.

That may well be all it is you're experiencing... I'm just surprised by the immediate severity of the shift after gaining a population... would have thought it would be more gradual.
 
Guys!
Jacen is playing with v36 Official release AND RWN's Dangerous Animals Modmod!

Your answers do not apply at all! RWN's Dangerous Animals had many many changes to the base V36 that are not in the current SVN and never were.

@Jacen,
You are playing with a ModMod that was not completed because RWN left. Only He can answer your questions. We have No control over Modmod content and what it does to the base game.

Sorry but you are stuck with what you have.

JosEPh
 
Well don't doubt it. It was Not a small Modmod at all. I played all his versions and it was a major rewrite in many areas.

It was also made while I was doing my 1st modmod on Pests. Crime was still hydro's full version where, like Pests, many major "Crimes" came at the same time and same level of crime. So yes there were big fluctuations going on.

You may not remember it but hydro had 1 crime when you hit a high level that added in 800 Crime. So if you hit that, then poured in TWs it would go back down. Put the Crime/pop and his diffusion % for adjacent tiles was enough to hit it soon again a virtual yoyo. Sparth was upset over it too at that time. called it a major Bug when it was all along how Hydro had it set up.

RWN's Modmod was a cool diversion but it could throw some zingers at you.

And players that were too casual with keeping Crime under control got whammied, hard! :D

JosEPh ;)
 
I don't know.... I poured through RWN's code fairly carefully. There are only 12 XML files and after CTRL-F'ing the words "crime", "disease", and "education" in these files there is not one reference to properties.

Also, I am talking about a crime rating of say, -235 going UP to -105 in a single turn. Regardless of whatever major crimes were added at a specific stage of the game, if your current crime rating is in fact negative, does that not make the new crimes totally irrelevant UNLESS your number is positive?

And a correction of what I said above.... population CANNOT be the factor.... after further playtesting I have found that the huge disruptions in values have nothing to do with population increase.... they seem sheerly random. Although BlueGenie's mention of the rates of diffusion might be on the right track.... but EMPIRE-WIDE, ALL AT ONCE???
 
@Jacen,

The v36 Official release and it's .DLL is ancient history to the mod now.

If T-brd "wants to set up that DLL" (and that is a Big IF) for testing it would stop him from current issues and take away valuable time to the Current version of the Mod. And he is the one to decide if he has the time to try and "solve" your problem.

Plus we do not debug Modmods. That is the authors responsibility and RWN left for Real Life issues and has not returned.

For all we know your issues may already have been fixed for the base C2C mod. And RWN's modmod just exacerbated an old problem that is now gone.

Sorry but you're on your own with using the modmod

And Crime diffusion rate was set for every city you own back then so Yes Empire wide. The Cities MainTile generates the Crime from Pop and other sources like Hidden Units that also gebnerate crime. Then that Crime is diffused out to the adjacent 8 tiles at a set rate. It builds up and THEN diffuses the Crime Back to the Main City tile. And it can take many many turns of Crime "control to get this surge back to level out. It's kind of like throwing a rock into the water making a splash and then the ripples spreading out from the area of impact. Only the ripples come back in this case to the area of impact. Back and forth until it subsides. But all it takes is another "impact" for the ripples to get strong again.

Much has changed with crime since then.

Also Education and Tourism was being fleshed out and they too impacted crime.

I understand the frustration, and that is why I started to make simple Modmods to change How Crime, Pests, and Disease entered the game back then which finally lead to me be accepted to the team after 7 years of being a "regular player, critic and tester".

JosEPh
 
Yeah, I've gotta back Joseph on this. If you were bringing us a problem that was on the current SVN unmodded, I would know this is a core game issue and would look into it. I'll keep my eye out for the possibility that something may cause it in the core game though. But if it's coming from the modmod, I would never know because I don't download modmods so as to keep my fileset pure - it's too directly linked to the SVN.
 
Ah.... didn't realize there was that much difference between SVN and v36 in this matter. Also, Joseph's wave analogy is a very concise description of the behavior of properties. I'm gonna guess that this is indeed what is happening, exacerbated by nightmare mode and deity level. After more playtesting, I have found that it is not gamebreaking as I feared, but just a constant source of vigilance.... more than I expected, but still manageable.

When you guys release v37, I suggest you describe the wave-like behavior of diffusion very carefully IN GAME. To those of us NOT in the C2C inner circle, that level of complexity is very surprising (and quite gratifying +1).... to those C2C players who never pay much attention to these forums, I'm sure it is bewildering and (and downright frustrating -1).

Keep up the excellent work! This is the ONLY game I play. :D
 
Top Bottom