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Is me saying there is no such thing as apples a lack of faith? No, because the existence of apples is a given, and so me denying that given requires more faith than accepting it.

In God's case, both believing in and not believing in God are accepted as valid conclusions in America, but I still think Atheism requires a bit more faith because it demands we are all here, because we are.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow; you're saying that Atheism is a greater leap of faith than Theism (setting aside the alternatives for a moment), because it does not claim a grand, unverifiable purpose to the universe? Is that correct?
 
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow; you're saying that Atheism is a greater leap of faith than Theism (setting aside the alternatives for a moment), because it does not claim a grand, unverifiable purpose to the universe? Is that correct?

I am saying that Atheism requires a greater leap of faith than Theism (Generic, the belief that there is a God somewhere, not the specific form of Theism I hold necessarily) because it states that the universe popped up on its own, without anyone to start the process. That (To me) is impossible, and certainly requires lots of faith.

Apathetic Agnosticism certainly requires less faith than either of the above, but (At least to me) a god existing somewhere to have created all this requires less faith than believing there is none.

As for a SPECIFIC type of God, that requires more faith, though I believe my faith for a variety of reasons, I can't prove it here.

EDIT: I crossposted Plotinus. Sorry, I think you're right and will stop now.
 
This is why there are very few deists today. I'm not sure I've ever met one. Historically speaking, deism should really be regarded as a halfway house from theism to atheism.
Interesting, in my experience a majority of Christians undergo a spontaneous, temporary conversion to deism the second they start defending the existence of a god.
 
Hi Plot!

Whats the deal with the intricate demonology one finds in some early christian writings (lots of stuff by the early monks in the desert, for instance) is just a sort of literalizing of man's battle against vice?

Was Origen the first major thinker to interpret major parts of the bible allegorically?
 
I've been reading through this thread (and its predecessors) in the last few days, and I'm curious about your opinion of John 3:16, taking account of Jesus never claiming to be divine and that the Gospel of John is more of a "theological meditation" [post 660, thread II] and less a history. I am not a Christian but have long been under the impression that this passage states that you cannot be saved unless you accept Jesus as the [literal] son of God.

Is this a belief that developed after Jesus's death?
 
John 3:16 doesn't deal in absolutes (or in Sith for that matter). It says "whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but shall have everlasting life". It does not say anything about not being saved.
 
John 3:16 doesn't deal in absolutes (or in Sith for that matter). It says "whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but shall have everlasting life". It does not say anything about not being saved.

Ah, so you are using Star Wars as an argument?:lol:

That verse does not say what happens to the unsaved, but it implies that not believing leaves the possibility of perishing.

Would you disagree? If not, why?

That verse alone doesn't prove Hell's existence, though many of Jesus' other quotes do.
 
Come on, Domination. Implication isn't good enough in a debate with no clear answer. You should know that.

Where in the Bible is the existence of Hell supposedly proven?
 
Hi Plot!

Whats the deal with the intricate demonology one finds in some early christian writings (lots of stuff by the early monks in the desert, for instance) is just a sort of literalizing of man's battle against vice?

Hi Fifty!

If you mean, are we supposed to take the talk of "demons" figuratively, then I think the answer is no. I don't think there's any doubt that the early monastic writers, and early Christian writers in general, considered demons to be real beings that really could interact with people. Evagrius Ponticus goes so far as to draw conclusions about the temperature of various demons' bodies. It was generally accepted that demons required nourishment, perhaps in the form of sacrifices (this was why they posed as gods).

However, I do think that the descriptions of interactions with demons, although meant to be taken literally, do also reflect psychological experiences that are much easier for us to sympathise with and understand. I've argued elsewhere that Evagrius Ponticus' descriptions of demonic attacks accords very well with the definition of "obsessions" in the context of obsessive-compulsive disorder (and his accounts of some of the measures to be taken against them accord rather well with the definition of "compulsions" too). The key point for him and subsequent monastic writers, including John Cassian, is that the demons are external to us; but they arouse thoughts within us. For example, if I am assailed by a bout of pride, this has been caused by a demon interfering with the operation of my brain, which acts on the soul to excite this particular thought (demons can only affect your body, not your soul, but they can get at your soul indirectly via your body). So the prideful thought is mine, and it is within my mind, but it has an external cause. This reflects the experience of having a thought that seems to come out of nowhere, and it ties in with OCD obsessions too, which the sufferer recognises as his own thoughts (people with OCD don't think their obsessions are other entities speaking to them, as schizophrenics may), but finds disturbing and doesn't want. Although that's characteristic of OCD it's hardly exclusive to it, of course, so to that degree anyone can recognise the sort of thing that these writers are talking about, whether or not they believe in demons.

Was Origen the first major thinker to interpret major parts of the bible allegorically?

No, although I think he was the first to write an explanation of the theory behind it, at least one that's survived. (And his explanation of the theory doesn't match his own practice anyway.) Earlier exponents would include Clement of Alexandria and, above all, Philo of Alexandria, whose methods and ideas really underpin much of the Christian Alexandrian exegetical tradition.

I've been reading through this thread (and its predecessors) in the last few days, and I'm curious about your opinion of John 3:16, taking account of Jesus never claiming to be divine and that the Gospel of John is more of a "theological meditation" [post 660, thread II] and less a history. I am not a Christian but have long been under the impression that this passage states that you cannot be saved unless you accept Jesus as the [literal] son of God.

Is this a belief that developed after Jesus's death?

As Arakhor said, that verse really doesn't teach anything exclusive; it's saying that people who believe in Jesus will be saved, not that those who don't believe in him won't be - although as Domination3000 says there is at least an implication that those who don't believe in him will have problems.

There's also nothing in that verse about believing Jesus to be "son of God", literal or otherwise; it talks only about believing in him, which is rather vaguer. I take that to mean a more personal sort of relation - i.e. trusting in Jesus, rather than holding certain propositions regarding him.

The idea that salvation comes through Jesus certainly predates John's Gospel, as it's central to Paul's thought. Whether it predates Jesus' death is another matter - I think it's unlikely.

Where in the Bible is the existence of Hell supposedly proven?

Again, let's not have an argument if it's not directly related to a question.

In any case, your challenge is rather misplaced, since the Bible doesn't prove things, it just asserts them. If you want to know where it asserts the existence of hell, it's throughout the New Testament. There's no doubt about that. The doubt concerns the status of hell and its denizens, since alongside the assertion of hell there is also the assertion that everyone will be saved (Rom. 5:18, 1 Cor. 15:22-28). This has led many Christians, both ancient and modern, to suppose that hell is a temporary state and that everyone in it will, eventually, be saved - presumably by eventually coming to have faith in Christ after all.
 
Come on, Domination. Implication isn't good enough in a debate with no clear answer. You should know that.

Where in the Bible is the existence of Hell supposedly proven?

http://nlt.scripturetext.com/mark/9.htm

Starting in Verse 43.

Not to mention Revelation.

Now before you argue "But that's a cruel God," wrong, God isn't actually punishing anyone, he is allowing them to suffer the consequence for sin, eternal separation from him. Its not God torturing people.
 
Now before you argue "But that's a cruel God," wrong, God isn't actually punishing anyone, he is allowing them to suffer the consequence for sin, eternal separation from him. Its not God torturing people.

That's a feeble defence; if I see someone walking into a mantrap and I fail to stop him from doing so when I have that ability, or if I fail to rescue him from the mantrap once he's stepped in it, I bear at least some of the responsibility for his being in that situation. And I think most of us would agree that that is a moral failing on my part, no matter how much the other person is to blame for getting into that situation. Similarly, if God lets people suffer simply because they got themselves into that mess and he's not going to get them out, then God is morally culpable. He may be less morally culpable than if he'd caused their suffering directly, but still culpable to some degree.

This is why, in my opinion, the only theodicies that have ever really had the remotest plausibility are those that argue that God causes suffering because it brings about some good purpose. That, to my mind, is more worthy of God than feeble arguments to the effect that suffering doesn't bring about a good purpose, but God abandons people to it anyway. I still think that the notion that God requires suffering to attain his ends is hard to defend anyway, but it's better than this unpleasant and unchristian image of a bystander God who abandons people to their suffering.
 
That was why Christ died.

Basically it works like this:

Man sinned. The punishment for sin is eternal separation from God. I am not God, I cannot tell you why God chose that punishment, but I'll quote the common answer anyway and say because God can't allow sin in his presence.

God sends Christ his Son to die on the cross to pay for that sin. He then offers us the free gift to take it and go to heaven. If we accept it, we go to heaven, if not, we die in our sins by our choice and go to eternal separation from God in Hell.
 
Now before you argue "But that's a cruel God," wrong, God isn't actually punishing anyone, he is allowing them to suffer the consequence for sin, eternal separation from him. Its not God torturing people.

How is it not cruel to allow people to suffer for the sin of someone else? The idea that descendents inherit the sin of their progenitors is cruel in and of itself.
 
They inherit the sin nature. Its impossible not to sin in thought word or deed with that anyway. But if you were too young to do so, your sin nature wouldn't be held against you. In fact, if you were too young or mentally impaired to understand the gospel, you would go to heaven.
 
They inherit the sin nature.

That's what's cruel. God as he is described in the Judeo-Christian religions is a tyrant. If his "ultimate good" is good just because he says so, it's just as arbitrary as my declaring what's good and what's bad.

He has no legitimate claim to authority.
 
That's what's cruel. God as he is described in the Judeo-Christian religions is a tyrant. If his "ultimate good" is good just because he says so, it's just as arbitrary as my declaring what's good and what's bad.

He has no legitimate claim to authority.

Don't mistake the story Domination3000 tells as the belief of "the Judeo-Christian religions". It's just one strand within them that conceives of God in this way.

That was why Christ died.

Basically it works like this:

Man sinned. The punishment for sin is eternal separation from God. I am not God, I cannot tell you why God chose that punishment, but I'll quote the common answer anyway and say because God can't allow sin in his presence.

God sends Christ his Son to die on the cross to pay for that sin. He then offers us the free gift to take it and go to heaven. If we accept it, we go to heaven, if not, we die in our sins by our choice and go to eternal separation from God in Hell.

None of that addresses what I said before. Moreover, it's riddled with holes in its own right, as many Christians have been saying for centuries.

First, the doctrine you have just outlined is known as "penal substitution". It is just one version of the Christian doctrine that salvation comes through Christ. In fact, it originated in the Middle Ages; it can be found in some writings of Peter Abelard (ironically, since Abelard is normally associated with a completely different understanding of the nature and mechanics of salvation). Before that time, most Christians believed a completely different story (one originating in the work of Gregory of Nyssa). After that time, the doctrine of Anselm of Canterbury was dominant in the west, which had similarities to "penal substitution", although it was different.

Only at the time of the Reformation did "penal substitution" become widely believed, through the works of Luther and Calvin, and it's debatable to what extent either of them can be considered a proponent of the doctrine. At any rate, it became closely associated with Calvinism and from there entered into evangelicalism, which is why it's believed by most evangelicals today. However, it is a minority doctrine within Christianity as a whole, considered throughout history.

As to the flaws with the doctrine itself, they are obvious. If the punishment for rejecting God is "eternal separation from God", and Christ suffered everyone's punishment on their behalf, then he should have suffered eternal separation from God. But he didn't; at most he was separated from God for a limited period, because he returned to union with God. Moreover, if the punishment for one person rejecting God is eternal separation from God, then if Christ suffered the punishment due to a single person, that is what he should have suffered. But we are told that Christ suffered the punishment due to many people, perhaps the punishment due to all people. In that case, he must have suffered eternal separation from God multiplied by the number of people who are saved. But how can you multiply eternal separation from God by any number? How could you distinguish between Christ suffering the punishment due to a single person and him suffering the punishment due to many people? The notion is incoherent; therefore, Christ could not have suffered the punishment due to many people.

Moreover, the notion of one person suffering a punishment on behalf of another is pretty weird. What's the point of it? There are various reasons why we punish people - retribution, rehabilitation, deterrent to others. It is hard to see how any of these are achieved by God punishing Christ in the place of sinners. It's like someone taking a bath on my behalf. It won't make me clean. To return to the "crime and punishment" model, suppose the government proposed to stop locking up criminals, on the basis that a very generous innocent person had offered to go to prison in their place. Would that be a sensible policy?

Moreover, it is inconsistent to say that Christ suffered the punishment, and yet that that punishment can still be meted out to others. If he suffered the punishment, then that should be it. The debt is paid or whatever metaphor you wish to use. If it is indeed just for one person to be punished in the place of another, then it is unjust to punish the other person as well. It follows that, if you think Christ has suffered my punishment already, it makes no difference what I choose to do; the punishment has been dealt with, and I will not suffer it. (This is a flaw of all "objective" theories of the atonement: if salvation comes about because of something like this, then it is not dependent upon any decision that I make.)

To put it another way, you can't shift metaphors in the middle of the story like that. First you talk about "punishment". So salvation consists in not being punished. Then you shift and you talk about a "gift" that I may choose to accept or not. So now salvation is a gift that I must actively choose. But these are inconsistent. If someone is not punishing me then that's the case whether I choose it or not. It's incumbent on the person who believes in "penal substitution" to explain why, if my punishment has already been dealt with, I need to "accept" the state of not being punished, and why it doesn't follow automatically from the fact that my punishment has already happened to someone else.

Considerations such as these are why, although most evangelical Christians believe this doctrine, most theologians do not, and prefer alternative understandings of salvation. Personally I think that the biblical doctrine offered by Paul in Romans chapter 6 is superior to any, and certainly far superior to this "punishment" model.
 
Don't mistake the story Domination3000 tells as the belief of "the Judeo-Christian religions".

I'm not doing that. I think that God in anything resembling an orthodox understanding of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam is necessarily a tyrant.
 
Again, I'm not sure that there was ever much rubric on this. If anything, I should think it was a "results" standard. Of course in the early church there were great differences in attitudes to acceptable behaviour, ranging from the "moderation in everything" approach of Clement of Alexandria, which was indistinguishable (and indeed copied) from standard Roman moralists, to the "avoid pretty much everything" approach of the Syrian church and many gnostics. See Clement's advice here, to the effect that a bit of wine with meals is OK, but young people should avoid it because it exacerbates lust, and you don't want to end up like those dreadful common people throwing up in the gutter.
Thanks! That's about what I was expecting.

There's also nothing in that verse about believing Jesus to be "son of God", literal or otherwise; it talks only about believing in him, which is rather vaguer. I take that to mean a more personal sort of relation - i.e. trusting in Jesus, rather than holding certain propositions regarding him.
I agree that it is primarily about trust in Jesus, but I don't think you can so neatly separate the propositions about Jesus from trusting in him. After all, it's not just some sort of vague trust ("I believe you when you say that you'll help me move into my new apartment") but trusting in him to save you from your sins. But John seems to be saying that this capacity to save comes from the fact that Jesus is God's "only begotten son." So it's not at all clear to me that you can "believe in him," in the sense that John is speaking, without also holding certain propositions about his relationship with God to be true. (Which seems reasonable, as it's just an extra proposition added to the propositions you generally have to hold about people in order to trust them to help you in any way: they're reliable, they exist, they can actually help, etc.)
 
I'm not doing that. I think that God in anything resembling an orthodox understanding of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam is necessarily a tyrant.

Why?

I agree that it is primarily about trust in Jesus, but I don't think you can so neatly separate the propositions about Jesus from trusting in him. After all, it's not just some sort of vague trust ("I believe you when you say that you'll help me move into my new apartment") but trusting in him to save you from your sins. But John seems to be saying that this capacity to save comes from the fact that Jesus is God's "only begotten son." So it's not at all clear to me that you can "believe in him," in the sense that John is speaking, without also holding certain propositions about his relationship with God to be true. (Which seems reasonable, as it's just an extra proposition added to the propositions you generally have to hold about people in order to trust them to help you in any way: they're reliable, they exist, they can actually help, etc.)

Yes, that's a fair point.
 
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