C2C Options

When you look at the replacement method as I explained it above, is there really an easier way? What could possibly be easier than that?

But yeah, the specialist issue was certainly illuminated by that being the only pick other than civilian.
 
When you look at the replacement method as I explained it above, is there really an easier way? What could possibly be easier than that?

But yeah, the specialist issue was certainly illuminated by that being the only pick other than civilian.

The problem comes when you need to change something and you need to know to change it in two places.

So what buildings should allow the detective specialist? I have no ideas here.
 
Again, probably all the buildings that unlock law enforcement unit upgrades would be the places I'd start by putting +1 or more on those, more as they get later in the tech tree, then I'd look at Law based wonders... I think we have SOME right? Maybe the courthouse...

There aren't many ways to optionalize something without having the same issue really, not if you want it to be an option and not something you have to manipulate files to turn on or off. I suppose we could be kind to one another and make comment notes in the xml to let us know when there's another spot that has to be addressed if you change something.
 
Again, probably all the buildings that unlock law enforcement unit upgrades would be the places I'd start by putting +1 or more on those, more as they get later in the tech tree, then I'd look at Law based wonders... I think we have SOME right? Maybe the courthouse...

Some will be needed for lawyers and statesmen but I will see what I can do.

edit turns out there was 1 on the Palace. I have removed it. The other buildings already have been done.

I suppose we could be kind to one another and make comment notes in the xml to let us know when there's another spot that has to be addressed if you change something.

Comments in the XML make it very very hard to find and identify errors like the one we currently have in one or more promotions.
 
Some will be needed for lawyers and statesmen but I will see what I can do.

edit turns out there was 1 on the Palace. I have removed it. The other buildings already have been done.
Awesome!



Comments in the XML make it very very hard to find and identify errors like the one we currently have in one or more promotions.
How so?

And I don't see any errors in the promotions... they all show up in the pedia now. I had a problem with the wanted promos but fixed it with my last commit. It suggests there could be some others that operate with the same trouble but I'd need to know what they are.
 
How so?

And I don't see any errors in the promotions... they all show up in the pedia now. I had a problem with the wanted promos but fixed it with my last commit. It suggests there could be some others that operate with the same trouble but I'd need to know what they are.

Promotions were not displaying before your update. They now are so I don't have to do anything - let there be much rejoycing:lol:.
 
Check that Bug off the list! :)

JosEPh
 
I've considered this closer after reading Joe's post explaining it and I believe he is very correct in his analysis and reverting my opinion if as Joe says it indeed works with Realistic Culture, at least as long as even on Eternal speeds the Culture needed for that new first Culture Level doesn't go beyond 20-30 Culture.

The first city you get you don't need an extra building to increase Culture yield really as you have +2 culture from your palace and +1 from your Native Culture (Asian, European, a.s.o).
((Speaking of those, should there be 2, a "Native Culture (Asian)" as well as a "(Culture) Asian"?))
So +3 (or 4) per turn in the non-eternity speeds should not take many turns to reach 10 or 15 culture, and adding a building to build will NOT speed that up anyway unless it takes less than 3 turns to build it.

The other cities you get will be after you have Tribalism, and they all also have the native culture bonus, and by then there are lots and lots of +culture buildings available if so needed as well as Story Tellers and animals.

@DH, I find the Citizen's +1 hammer better in the starting game than that detective, faster building ftw, until hammer production is up later in the game.

@T-Brd: The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro would be a problem, but like you said you could teach the AI to bring units to pop that first ring, and maybe only needing to do that if they have the great bath.
Otherwise teaching them to plant new cities where they already have gained cultural influence will negate that problem. The AI already knows to sometimes plant cities 3 plots from each other, and then you can use already gained cultural plots even if not getting any from the newly planted city right away.

Cheers
 
BlueGenie wrote:@T-Brd: The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro would be a problem, but like you said you could teach the AI to bring units to pop that first ring, and maybe only needing to do that if they have the great bath.
Otherwise teaching them to plant new cities where they already have gained cultural influence will negate that problem. The AI already knows to sometimes plant cities 3 plots from each other, and then you can use already gained cultural plots even if not getting any from the newly planted city right away.

Suggestion: Would it not be simpler to just add a one time Culture Boost to The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro that applies to New cities when founded? Why add more code when it is not really needed?

@BG,
I have posted the Culture levels required for each GS. They scale with each GS. The scale is 10, 20, 30, 50, 70, and 80. To go much lower imhpo, from playing and testing, would dilute this change to the point of irrelevance. I suppose a Bell Curve could soothe some apprehension IF found to be needed.

JosEPh
 
More thinking of the longer speeds where initially going for 20 turns at start of the game without any plots (and if RCS maybe none even after that) would be a bit too much, so for at least that first rung to gain any plots at all a more rounded curve would probably be best.

Fastest speed would be 3 turns (counting with the initial 4 culture one has in Capital from start)
20 Culture would take 5 turns
30 Culture would take 8 turns
50 Culture would take 13 turns
70 Culture would take 18 turns
80 Culture would take 20 turns

Maybe make it 32 at the longest speed, or 8 turns, and drop 1 turn per slower speed except the last two, going down 2 each for those, for (in turns) 8, 7, 6, 5, 3, 1?

Cheers
 
I'll have to recheck this, but I believe with each GS the initial culture scales as well.

As for RCS even the 20 turns for Eternity is not too much from what I have seen from my eternity test games.

I'm not rejecting this idea at all. Just stating what my test games have shown with the values I've plugged in.

If you would like to test this your self just go into Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4CultureLevelInfo.xml find the 2nd set (Culture Level Poor) and plug in the number for the game speed you prefer to use/test. Then start a new game on that GS and see how it plays out.

Obviously with more ppl testing more scenarios will unfold situations/data than from a single person doing multiple tests. Has to, bigger pool of data to use.

JosEPh
 
Found it. Just started one test to check the AI with various options but I can check on my next test game.

Cheers
 
Base Culture to start the game is 4. Leader traits and the Options associated with them will vary the turn times to reach Fledgling. The Leader traits will either add or subtract from the base Culture value of 4.

Just did 6 game starts with random Civs/leaders;
2 on Marathon, starting culture on 1st was 3.40, 2nd was 4.40 (Hittite, Korea-Sejong) turn to complete Poor to Fledgling (if no change to culture) 9 and 7
2 on Eon, 1st was 3.00, 2nd was 4.20 (Shaka, Pericles) Turn to complete 24 and 17
1 on Eternity Got Wrub the Neanderthal he has to have the worst at 2.60, TtC 31
1 on Snail, Stalin, 3.20 TtC 16

JosEPh
 
@T-Brd: The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro would be a problem, but like you said you could teach the AI to bring units to pop that first ring, and maybe only needing to do that if they have the great bath.
Otherwise teaching them to plant new cities where they already have gained cultural influence will negate that problem. The AI already knows to sometimes plant cities 3 plots from each other, and then you can use already gained cultural plots even if not getting any from the newly planted city right away.

Cheers

We have been thinking of changing The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro moving its effect to the Venus of W wonder, the Pyramids effect to the Bath and have the Pyramids give something different possibly a boost to building all buildings up until one of the engineering techs in the Renaissance or later.

The changes I did with the Colonist and Pioneer to fix the problem the AI had with them not working is based on Platyping's work which has code that allows you to set the starting culture level in new cities, so that bit is possible and gives some other options for our wonders.
 
@T-Brd: The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro would be a problem, but like you said you could teach the AI to bring units to pop that first ring, and maybe only needing to do that if they have the great bath.
Otherwise teaching them to plant new cities where they already have gained cultural influence will negate that problem. The AI already knows to sometimes plant cities 3 plots from each other, and then you can use already gained cultural plots even if not getting any from the newly planted city right away.
I wouldn't want to teach them to make less optimal long term choices for any reason. They already have a hard enough time with long term quality placements.

Suggestion: Would it not be simpler to just add a one time Culture Boost to The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro that applies to New cities when founded? Why add more code when it is not really needed?
It would require more code to create that culture blast on founding the city too. If you just give the wonder some culture it would grow out over the round the city starves out. It might be easier to program the AI to take an entertainer than to program the new culture blast on founding mechanism. Reason for that is that the settler already has to wait for defenders to accompany it so the mechanism for ordering help to accompany is already there. The main thing from there is to ensure that the entertainers are set to automatically want to culture bomb when they are on a tile with a city that just got founded - still an issue though if the founding comes AFTER a move though so might have to also tell settlers to wait until they have all their moves available before founding to ensure accompanying units can do their thing that round too. All in all these are fairly minor instruction points with pretty simple programming.


The first city you get you don't need an extra building to increase Culture yield really as you have +2 culture from your palace and +1 from your Native Culture (Asian, European, a.s.o).
Natural starting culture sources do not address the frustration that there is nothing a player can do to CHOOSE to either let the culture grow out naturally OR make a sacrifice elsewhere to force it to grow out faster.
 
We have been thinking of changing The Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro moving its effect to the Venus of W wonder, the Pyramids effect to the Bath and have the Pyramids give something different possibly a boost to building all buildings up until one of the engineering techs in the Renaissance or later.

The changes I did with the Colonist and Pioneer to fix the problem the AI had with them not working is based on Platyping's work which has code that allows you to set the starting culture level in new cities, so that bit is possible and gives some other options for our wonders.

The Bath is not the problem. The problem is how this impacts ALL effects that give additional population. The bath is just an example (and the Colonist and Pioneer are other examples which also point out how just creating a one time founding blast of culture would need to be developed for other causes of additional population, not just stemming from buildings. Traits can provide that too.)

But then you are saying there may be a python solution for this so I'm more than happy to let some of that side of things address the issue.
 
You're stuck on needing entertainers to "culture bomb" for fear the AI/player can't handle this. Forget the Great Bath suggestion, there are multiple ways this is being handle now by AI and Player.

By the time you get entertainers this change is easily handled in other ways already in the game. No coding is necessary imhpo.

Besides, DH's suggestion for this 1 WW is more than ample to cover it.

EDIT: ninja by your other post. BUT
Natural starting culture sources do not address the frustration that there is nothing a player can do to CHOOSE to either let the culture grow out naturally OR make a sacrifice elsewhere to force it to grow out faster.
This is an overstatement of 1 bad situation that was in conjunction with another Broken component. You will not get past this until you actually do some play time yourself, and allay this "frustration".

Why don't you post whisperr's broken game 1st turn so I can see what is going on. I have way too many test games that says this was a rare aberration to the norm.

JosEPh
 
By the time you get entertainers this change is easily handled in other ways already in the game. No coding is necessary imhpo.
How is it handled? I mean I'd love it if traits/wonders and settler types that add an extra population would automatically also pop the first ring but would that not then make the effect a little too strong? If that's not a concern and it can be done without having to setup the accompanying entertainer then by all means that's fine by me.

Another question would be how does the AI stay competitive with the human players that figure out how to do this?

I'm curious too about the pioneer and colonist, do they currently set the starting culture higher when they found now?

By the way, don't act like I'm not dropping the subject because I have an emotional attachment to it. Alternative answers would be great. I just want to ensure there ARE answers to the dillemas produced.
 
I'm curious too about the pioneer and colonist, do they currently set the starting culture higher when they found now?

Currently the colonist and pioneer do nothing that the settler doesn't do.

The tech they become available at however does. Once you have the Colonist tech every city starts with +1 pop and once you have the Pioneer tech every city starts with +2 pop on Earth at least. This is done in Python. They also start with some buildings but that is done using the FreeNewCity tag on the building XML.

Currently the increase in population is hard coded in the onCityBuilt() python function, but it would be easy to move it out into some Custom XML for the tech or to a new tag on the tech. The same goes for a cultural bomb. Platyping's code has the name of the cultural level required in the StartCulture tag and just figures out how much culture to add to the city.
 
New tags... 1 for unit (or tech - I'm amused by the clever ruse making the colonist and pioneer appear to be the representative of the improved effects when its really inherent in the tech, though now that I know I can always build a few extra settlers since I don't technically have to upgrade them to get the improvements.) 1 for traits. 1 for WWs. All playing into the onCityBuilt moment. The tag defines the starting culture level or an int for an adjustment to the default starting level which would be 0. Then the code determines the starting culture amount based on level requirements and assigns it as soon as the city is built.

By the time the tags are setup in the dll, the coding is so simple from there that there'd be no need to really fool with it in py. The tag setup is the only thing even close to time consuming on that.

And again, this function would take about the same amt of time as the entertainer issue and I've not heard any reason that would be a bad solution.

So in terms of pros and cons... I'm not sure which would be better since both would take about the same amount of programming time. I suppose the tags give access to using them in other ways and for other issues. But then having the AI culture blast with an entertainer right up front would be a good thing to teach it to do anyhow. It's already something I try to remember to do as a player.

So either way...
 
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