All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

I'm going to have to agree that stuffing Ragnar is the best option, he will easily out REX you if you give him an opportunity. Found Cyan, research archery, and watch him cry. Even if he does declare on you, having CG2 archers in your cities and extra first strikes for counter attacks the only thing you will have to worry about is a little pillaging. Even Ragnar won't attack if you have plenty of defenses.

I think you are ignoring the obvious. Researching fusion as soon as possible then "nuke-rushing" before he can found a second city. You will need to build a minimum of two cottages ASAP for this strat to work. Otherwise, research writing and build a library, have your citizens go to the library and study Latin, once they are fluent build Prats.

The protective trait, huh? Does it mean cyan and archers while chopping the Great Wall? This could get interesting...

I wish i knew Latin

Very dangerous position here. On Emperor, the barbarian hordes will be coming quick out of that huge stretch of unexplored black. Without Copper I understand how you felt compelled to build the third warrior, you can 3/4 build him and finish at first sight of barbs if you choose, that two turns may make the difference in blocking Ragnar.

I am not as optimistic that you will be able to block Ragnar off easily. Do it the obvious way if he gives you the opportunity. Beautiful if you can but my guess is that he is already done/or nearly done with his first settler. I definitely agree blocking him could be a worthwhile early goal to get the most out of your creative trait. Another idea would be to curve around a half circle to the southwest taking the hills and floodplains for yourself, five or so cities early should not hurt with ziggarats. I just don't know if you can chop out 5 settlers/archers without him "escaping". It would be nice to choke him now for an easy elimination later. One potential glitch to this plan is that coastal land to his southeast.

Another plan: Build cities in optimal places, research IW soon and wipe him out no matter where he is. The downfall to this plan is if you let him "out" to thrive, it could mean a more drawn out, costly war down the road.

You need to find out how far away Washington is.

madscientist said:

4) DO not underestimate Washington. He will get very large cities fast (charismatic/expansive) and the charismatic trait is the most dangerous military trait.

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washington expands like crazy every time i've met him in warlords/BtS. really annoying. potentially a big setback since we don't even know where he is atm. he's obviously not right next door, but if there are great spots close to him that we haven't scouted out yet, he's gonna beat us there.

S isn't as afraid to go to war to get a city as me, by a long shot, so that's not as much a problem as it is in my games, but i wanted to throw it out there to think about.

i want to know where washington lives, where he expands, and what resources he gets.

He lives in the Whitehouse! And his missus sews flags. I reckon anyway (from a European history education point of view - I do know he never cut down no trees with his axe though, that was made up ). Washington must die... he ruins many of my games with his stack of Navy SEALs (I'm sure they smoke while firing their guns, trying to be cool with their "I don't care if I get shot" sort of attitude).

Hey all..
First of all, I agree with the general consensus that teal goes first.
Ensuite (sorry, meant next, French class is taking over teh mind!), It looks like Washington is up north of Sumer, i.e, there's a coastline and ocean , so go north and maybe west, and you'll find America. Probably.
IN light of my Pasture mistake, I support prioritizing IW (that is what we're going for, right?) since it'll enable Vultures and jungle-chopping. And then we can go for AH, then Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood. Something like that.
It may end up that beating down Washington first to prevent overexpansion and then hitting Ragnar would be a good idea, especially if no Iron appears close to Ragnar.

johnny_rico said:

I'm going along with the crowd that land stuffing Ragnar is your best option.

I would tech AH then hunt/archery, then IW, then myst/med/priesthood

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I like that option, and that tech path.

If I can get city #2 and claim the stone, I think the GW is definitely an option. However, that requires slipping Masonry in there somewhere...

I probably won't be able to play/post the next round until tomorrow.

probably slip masonry in right after Mysticism

To use those prerequisite boosts, it might be better to go
Hunting->AH
Archery
Myst->Masonry
->Med->Priesthood

keeping the lowest flask investment for the whole group (AH is gotten a bit later but everything else comes sooner)

So your saying that the chicken came first?

Get Archery then IW. I'd rather rely on Protective archers than Chariots that may or may not become available in time to ward off barbarians. Go the safe route and take advantage of Giggles' traits.

Seems that Vultures are a great bet when copper is found early. I would think that with IW and (hopefully) iron available that the Vultures will only be one cog in an army that includes swords, chariots, and a spear or two as well (possibly archers for defense too). Yeah, Vultures outshine the axeman, but with swords available I'd like to see more swords than Vultures if going to take cities.

Last game I played on Monarch, I was actually able to chariot-rush Ragnar in an early game bid for expansion. Had horses early and cranked out a good number quickly. Was able to peg a Viking settler with escorting archers on the move and sent a batch into the capital to take it. He did not found a religion so the cultural defense was not too high, was not on a hill, and did not hook up metals, so it was a good bid at that time. Not sure if that would be too crazy on Emperor, but perhaps a number of roving chariots can cause Ragnar some grief in expansion. At least until we get IW up with better units. If nothing else, they'll be better for early barbs. Definitely need AH, therefore, and see if horses are an option - Gil already has the wheel to start anyway.

I don't think we need to rush for iron working, I would like to get AH and archery first, so that we can see horses, and more importantly use our awesome 3-3-1 square, and archers to defend against barbs and ragnar;s inevitable bad mood. THEN I would consider getting IW, although if we want the Great Wall I would put masonry in there before IW too...

During that time we need to chop a settler to get cyan before raggy, and then chop a second settler, or the GW...

CivCorpse said:

I think you are ignoring the obvious. Researching fusion as soon as possible then "nuke-rushing" before he can found a second city. You will need to build a minimum of two cottages ASAP for this strat to work. Otherwise, research writing and build a library, have your citizens go to the library and study Latin, once they are fluent build Prats.

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Obviously... , just get those cottages cause the 1170 turns left towards Fusion could cause complications otherwise.
Just make sure we trick Ragnar into growing Nidaros too large via gifting him every / resouces to maximize the effect.



More seriously:

Its a shame there's no copper visible. Maybe it ll show up as you explore to meet Washington.
Otherwise the dilema between AH and IW is a tough one. Metal may have less immediate uses but its overall more vital and you ll be forced into the jungle very soon.
But we should definitely secure some metal before focusing on economic/wonder techs.

Archers protective or not are second rate units. I do recall succesfully rushing Julius with just protective - cover archers, but then again i have a soft spot for rushing under less than ideal circumstances. I dont think this kind of risk is appropriate here.

Seems the other continet has all the early resources and we have to depend on calendar ones. No real food rich sites or good coast ones too.
Unless exploration reveals someting really good we ll likely have to make dues with the two mostly flood plains sites till calendar. Meaning pottery gets bonus point too.

I'm reluctant to comment on city sites before any strategic resources show up.

Krikkitone said:

probably slip masonry in right after Mysticism

To use those prerequisite boosts, it might be better to go
Hunting->AH
Archery
Myst->Masonry
->Med->Priesthood

keeping the lowest flask investment for the whole group (AH is gotten a bit later but everything else comes sooner)

Click to expand...

Agreed on slipping masonry in. I'd push it earlier though if the GW is desired (and it should be). Depending on your builds is where I'd slip in masonry. You don't want it too soon because you want masonry to complete right as your whipping something to put excess hammers into the great wall. You also need to get started on this sooner than later because the barbs are coming.

AH is kinda asap for the cows. Hunting>Archery needed for the archers. Not sure given the barbs if you can afford masonry before hunting and I'm no sure if you should delay archery. Live and learn. If you get the GW up, barbs are no longer an issue, that would be the biggest argument for taking the chance on masonry asap.

One thing that's been mentioned by a lot of people but hasn't really been stressed is the need for chopping with this start. Uruk is really a poor capital location (low food, low production and no luxuries/high commerce tiles). The only thing it has going for it is 16 forests. IMO there needs to be a lot of early chopping to leverage the abundant forests and get a quick start. For that reason I would chop/whip a second worker before beginning the settler. Both of the workers can then chop the settler for cyan city or one can chop while the second pre-builds the road. After the settler is done I would look to build/chop/whip a third worker to help chop forests for GW.

The tech order I would suggest would be Hunting->AH->Masonry. I don't think you're going to be able to fit Mysticism in before Masonry without delaying the start of GW. Besides masonry you'll need two other things to get the quarry hooked up: a border expansion in cyan city and a road connecting the stone tile to Uruk. By my calculation both of these can be done by about 2300 BC and the only way you'll have Masonry done by then is if you skip Mysticism. If you get Masonry done in time you should have GW finished around 1800 BC which should be early enough to avoid being beaten to it and also to avoid barbs entering your territory. Including Mysticism before Masonry would delay GW by several turns which could cause problems with either (or both) of those.

After Masonry research should either be Archery or IW depending on whether horses are available.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned much is whether or not Pyramids would be something to pursue. Cyan city could come under some cultural pressure from Nidaros, especially if Ragnar builds any wonders there. Building Pyramids there would help to counter Viking culture. It's not a high production site, but if it gets started early enough it has a reasonable chance of finishing them. And if you lose out then those hammers get converted to gold at double the normal rate.

OTOH you may want to build it in a higher production city to increase the chances of getting it. Maybe make it the first build in green city?

Sisiutil said:

I like that option, and that tech path.

If I can get city #2 and claim the stone, I think the GW is definitely an option. However, that requires slipping Masonry in there somewhere...

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not sure of how many turns before you actually get the 2nd city, but i would just use when it is founded as when you sould start researching masonry. depending on if you'll need to build roads between the two cities, but it should take about the same amount of time to build the road from city #2 to the stone and hook it up as it would to research masonry. and why even bother researching med? imo it's a semi-useless tech. getting to priesthood 1-2 turns sooner doesnt really mean a whole lot unless you really put off getting oracle. skip med and research poly, since you need that tech to eventually get the GLib.

Also, this is one time I promote getting archery. the barb situation should get your several archers with 10xp (the max when facing barbs if i'm not mistaken). thats arcehrs with Drill III, and I city defense. or vice versa. Though i usually only play protective when i play raging barbs. and i really love upgradign all those archers into riflemen.

First off, compliments on a really great thread thus far (as usual).

There's something I've been wondering about for ages, now, that's a bit off-topic, but anyway --

Can somebody explain to me how you guys make those really nice dot maps? Do you do it in game, or do you copy and paste to a photo edit program, or what?

At least do Hunting -> AH -> Archery for the discount.

You don't have time to both build the GW and block Ragnar.

^ Dot maps: some do it in a graphics program, I do it in the strategy layer (zoom out, left button on the bottom).

Jet:

Yeah, I know about the strategy layer, but whenever I try to draw a square, it looks bloody awful, you know? Not so easy to draw a straight line with a mouse, at least for me.