SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

jj, I am a bit surprised by your desire to settle on the stone island. As you mentioned, it is a small island, and it is possible that the fish and mined desert hill would be the only decent tiles we would work. If there was another fish there, I could see the argument. But as of right now I need convincing that this is better than going northwest or southwest. (where I'd expect to be working a seafood and some hills.

By the way, due to the fish location, it's entirely possible we should have settled in place. Oh, well, didn't know that back when we started, and it probably wasn't worth it given the extra 2 turns after moving the settler.

We'll need to know more of what's on the other side of this 9 tile island - 2 cities maybe? Once we decide where the second city goes, we can then explore while we build another city. Either way, it looks promising.

@ enKage - good idea. I'd agree between 10 - 20 if Windfury is comfortable with that. The only thing needed is a clear idea of what qualifies for a stop to post - like meeting a neighbour, barbs or___? Glad to see you are able to contribute. I've scheduled you in and hope you'll be up to playing your turnset.

Sorry i was a bit busy today and couldn't check the website at all, but I'll download the save now and make sure i can open it before i post an offical i got it

OK "I've got it" officially.. so we're playing by the text file plan provided in post 143. and I was thinking I'd play until BW was finished researching and since it'll be around 20 turns.. of course I will stop if anything happens that could want us to alter the plan. (Meeting anyone/anything, me screwing the plan up, etc. etc.)

I'll hold off on playing any turns until i get confirmation that this plan is OK.

Good to hear from you, Windfury!

Just let us know if the text file is difficult to understand at some point. There should be a bit of micromanagement in your turnset, both with tiles to use in the capital and even switching between production (Settler/Galley). The text file should list numbers for food and production at every turn of interest (?).

I agree that BW is a natural place to pause to think.

Since there have been no protests, I have mapped our surroundings using the goto/elevation trick. The result is shown below. The uncoloured (white) squares are yet to be determined.



@dima: The hills that I find W-NW are quite spread out. The 7-tile island NW also has the disadvantage that we will not be able to see all land tiles before the Settler goes ashore. Hence there might be a barbarian there that we cannot see. But ofc we need to discuss were to settle our next city.

Our savants have discovered Map Making!! Very nice, jj. This opens a lot of avenues.

For the immediate turnset:

1. Let's say an AI started with Fishing and went Sailing, built a work boat and went exploring. Would they have met us by now?
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2. Should we build a work boat to explore before a settler?

My thoughts on your two questions:

1. If the map resembles Archipelago (esp. with Tiny Islands), then there would be many possible paths to take for a boat. Hence even if there are some exploring work boats out there, it would be pure chance if they meet us. Besides, we have been told the AIs have been given "rather more land", making it less likely they will prioritize exploring work boats early, I think.

2. This question has already appeared (though we havn't really discussed it). But I am positive it is more important at this stage to get a second city out. Our current plan includes an exploring WB at turn 75. That is still early enough to meet one AI approximately when we discover Writing (for Open Borders and better trade routes), and early enough to meet most/all AIs before Alphabet. Whether it is early enough to get the circumnavigation bonus, is uncertain at best, but that is a gamble anyway.

I think we don't need exploring wb before settler, because:

a) it's emperor and we DO have to minimize our civic costs from the very beggining this simply forces us to build our cities in the "first circle" to reduce distance cost.

b) building 1 city per islands lowers costs too (2 cities on the island means additional colony cost - i'm not sure if it works also having other cities so close to capitol)

c) we can build 2 more cities, than max 5 to avoid raising maintenace costs

d) having no GL, we have to take care of our funds very hard at least until we got currency.

reference: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/city_upkeep.php

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Taking this rules into account, we have only one possibility to have a city with food resource already known - on hills wetwards (moai city?)

Settling the second possibiity (NE from hillsstone) gives us no fish in BFC.


The best option I think for now would be:
a) settling eastern tiny island (at least one clam)
b) and then forgetting about first circle rule

When 2nd settler is produced, quick glance wit galley to the island with stone and
c) settling southern part of SE island, to have stone in BFC (and I hope some fish hidden in the dark)
If no fishes in the dark, then
d) 3rd city on the flat northern island ( i sense horses there)
e) not settling northern part with fish at least until we have currency

So we have "cheeper" three cities.

I'm not sure if it makes any sense... but I still have fever :] forgive me if not :]

(i will try in wordbuilder if it makes sense and check how much svings we can have following this)

WBuilder tests:

Settling city #2

Settling #2 on the western tiny island:
Hills: maintanace 1,39 (-1 per turn). City cost -2 after reaching pop 2, but after this can grow at least to pop 4 w/o paying more maintenance

forest: maintenacje 1,59 (-2 per turn), the same with pop 2 and pop3

Settling #2 on any other tile -2 per turn

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Colonial expenses:

2 cities pop1 on the same island adds +0,33 maintainance, which means, that the second one cost us +1 gpt after reaching pop 2.

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Settling #3 and #4 on separate islands (east and north I suppose) give +2 gptupkeep and secure growth till pop3 for them


Settling #5 on another island means higher distance from palace costs, and initial upkeep of 3 gpt.
At this point it is +/- the same in costs as settling it a liitle closer, on the SE island - smaller distance costs=colony expenses

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So, as long as I checked:

1) Our 3 next cities MUST be settled on seperated islands, number 4 - can be a second city on a specific island

2) Settling #2 in the "first circle" means reduced maintanaince, but only when pop1. Having seafood, growth should be quicker, so I wouldn't stick to the rule of first circle.

3) In general - it is not a big difference, where we settle our next cities. The most important is to remember, to settle them on separate islands, at least until we have 4 cities.

But as we don't have exploration made yet, I think we should go west first. We cannot contribute workboat for exploring now, as we need it for 2nd clam.

PS
I dont believe circumnavigating the globe with workbout. The only reason for early exploration would be openborders bonus to trade, but as long as i supose rivals are on a bigger landmass, they will not get the bonus from oversea trade.


--
PS2
Very final, crazy thought

Have u ever try early independence move?
I've seen it only once, when the rival made it early and at the end he was the one who won.
I've tried it once, but on Prince and it worked too (but it was prince and raging barbs, so the rivals were slowed down in expansion).

After having 5 cities (and two of them on the same, SE island) we grant independence to this island.
Pros:
- lack of happy resources, having vassal we get +1 happpy face
- expensive expansion - we save ca. 6 gpt because of not having this two cities. Beakers we will get from specialist, as it is quite a lot of food
- foreign, oversea trade
- they can research what we want, slower rate, but always:]

Cons:
- we lose two cities, but loooking on the terrain, I don't think they will be megalopolis (unless addistional source of seafood is found or a source of metal)
- we lose stone supply, but we can demand it from vassal
- we have to defend him, as it would probably be americanc (in my games always first colonies independent is Roosevelt)
- we get -1 attitude with rivals (who we have to crush anyway)

^^ Welcome aboard, enKage! Glad you are feeling better. Good points about sticking with our present plan and nice work on the need to do some accounting. Our organized trait reduces civic costs by 50% so we have some help there.
@Windfury - when is it convenient for you to play your turnset? I think it's clear that we will stick with our plan and if you play until BW is done, that is perfect.
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Any other thoughts related to the next turnset?
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If you've read the Maintenance Thread topics and spin offs, you'll notice that test maps is a hot topic. I propose that we push this map testing to the limit. It's clearly not an exploit but in this game it could be a powerful tool to have an accurate map. So my question to the map builders is:
"Could we build a map that we can alter as we discover new land and use this map like a scenario where each person could load the map and play a game based on present information - known AI, and known details?"

OKies.. I just woke up and saw that my ideas were fine and so I've just finished playing my turnset. I played until the end of turn 59, the turn where we discovered BW, I've revolted into Slavery, and begun the chop on our 1 forest.

The only that happened during my turn set is at turn 51 I got a popup for the world's most advanced Civilizations:

We were 7th. Napoleon the Hopeless.

The plan seems to be slightly off in terms of worker turns as the mine was done several turns in advance of what was said so I was able to get a bit more roading done. Now i've just got to figure out the exact place to upload the new save hehe. Should be done soon.

EDIT: Okies new save is uploaded and ready for whomever's next.. I don't think i screwed up at all so I'm happy. Now it's time to start whipping the populace into shape

^^Good stuff, Windfury, I'll have a look shortly. I just noticed your post...
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A little further thoughts on maps:
One possibility is that we are alone, separated until Astronomy. This is a perfect scenario to do our map and testing as we'd have nothing but barbs to contend with while we explore building our empire. This map with a little tile modification along the way would take us well into the game and if we did meet others, then we could rethink our map.

Here is my suggestion:
Big and Small with isolated tiny islands. These maps resemble the European stage. Put the English(or whoever has the GLH) on the small island (to promote a race to Astromomy) with the GLH and maybe one other AI.

On the large island, have a select group of four or five of the possible Sixth Coalition members. Each tester could choose their own opposition - the RNG will change each test game anyway.

Edit the map so there is no contact possible and build our map with known information gleaned from our helicopter and jj's 'scouting'. The map jj built is enough information to do some really useful local exploration after turn +/- 75 when we have an exploring work boat.

The advantage of a 'close to real game map' is that each player can test out ideas and report what they find keeping everyone active in the game.

This scenario would be very useful for finding out when various wonders are built and therefore what teching was being done back on the continent. We will want to prioritize Astronomy anyway so we'll want to build a science city to augment our research assuming we are isolated. Of course if we meet someone, then we can trade but in the meantime we work towards circumnavigation which would require Astronomy anyway.

Windfury said:

The plan seems to be slightly off in terms of worker turns as the mine was done several turns in advance of what was said so I was able to get a bit more roading done.

Click to expand...

At turn 49 the plan said "Worker free to build some roads". We hadn't really specified this, but fully optimized the worker would be able to build three roads (as you have) + 1 turn on the last road (if you mm it correctly). I don't know if you did the last bit of mm'ing, but that's not important anyway. And I didn't write this down since I didn't want to clutter up the file with things that had very little importance. In other words: You have played exactly according to plan.

Way to go, Windfury! Our score, power and culture are leading the pack! We're off to an excellent start. So far no neighbours.

Roster

***ROSTER
Windfury (just played to turn 59)
fizbankovi (up)
2metraninja (on deck)
The Dude Esq
justjohn
bjartur
dima42
enKage (back in action)
keath

@fiz - post an "I got it" and hold on until we've all had a look and chance to comment. Let us know what time you'd like to play.

jj, very nice map. enkage, thanks for the tests! windfury, nice work! fizban, gl!

after looking at this, i don't have strong feelings about location of city #2. the optimal location on nw island is probably on top of the visible forest, so i'm not really thrilled about that. i am a bit uneasy over having a city using one fish, as may turn out on the SE island.

wonder-wise, i believe should probably prioritize pyramids and colossus. we're at sea, and we have stone and will be running a specialist economy.

researching pottery here is safe; i am ~80% (but not 100%) that writing after that is the way to go.

unfortunately i don't have time to do micro right now. i guess i still prefer the nw island settle, but not by much. either on top of visible forest or 1ne from that.

dima42 said:

i guess i still prefer the nw island settle, but not by much. either on top of visible forest or 1ne from that.

Click to expand...

I have some concerns about the NW 7-tile island:

1) So far we only see 1 crab as a useful square (not counting the forest), which is even less than the 1 fish at SE. In both cases we have to think about whether the city should be placed such that we can use the crab/fish in the inner or outer circle. Of course this depends on surrounding terrain and hopefully resources. Having no resources in inner circle is a clear drawback, but for both these cities, the crab/fish will be available as soon as our capital expands its borders, which is on turn 76.

2) I'm quite sure that the visible plain square on the NW 7-tile island has a streak of tundra in it, so I expect there to be at least one tundra tile next to it, and we risk that the rest of the island is tundra or worse.

3) Lastly, as I said before, we might encounter barbarians on our neighbouring islands, and there is no way to see all tiles of the NW island before committing our Settler ashore. That's another risk as I see it.

Other issues:

a) If time permits, I'll make a test game that uses all map information available to us, and I can try to keep it up to date as we find out more.

b) Determining our next city is something we have to do now. Regardless of our decision, what if we find *nothing* more than we already see? Are we willing to change our plan after the Settler has gone ashore and "scouted" the terrain?

c) I've generated a couple of 'Archipelago' and 'Big and Small' maps with Tiny Islands (an option our surroundings seem to suggest). Neither script gives the % land mass that we have in the real save game.

Big and Small: 0.49% - 0,51%
Our game: 0.64%
Archipelago: 0.82% - 0.88%

I should generated some more to be sure, but the conclusion seems clear already: We know the map is heavily modified, and that seems to include land mass. So either he has made a 'Big and Small' map and removed some land (maybe seperated us from the main continent?) or he has made an 'Archipelago' map and given the AIs more land. I also took a look at the average distance between islands, and our map is closer to the 'Archipelago' maps than the 'Big and Small' maps, at least it seemed so to me.

-jj-

Actually, I have built a few maps based on isolation and a larger landmass for the AI. I haven't quite figured out how to settle an AI city before turn1 with a lh and the GLH.

I play the game in Windows 7 Boot Camp on a MacBook Pro and design the games and post mostly from my Mac, so I have to go through a few extra steps to post an actual test game. If jj builds a map where we're isolated and the AI are on a simulated Europe, that would be excellent.

I've been reading up about Napoleonic times - it's worth a Google search for Post Napoleonic Europe checking the situation after Napoleon's exile to Elba. There was a lot of intriguing diplomacy at that time. The powers to be, including France wanted to re-establish the earlier Monarchies. It leaves quite a choice of European AI as we've already discussed in earlier posts.

Does it make much difference between say Fredrick and Bismarck in how the game might progress if the AI are isolated from us? For sure, Isabella would chase religions as another example. Each different AI would give a different flavour but how important is this if we're isolated?

I really think our map should have us isolated, though. Any thoughts on this?

Once we've got a 4000 bc start save, we'll want to carefully enter all our played moves exactly (***jj- is that what you plan to do?) and save (or post the test game) at the present state. Then each tester editing their save for new map info isn't too heavy a task and the maps should be good through to Astronomy. Besides, we'd all learn a little more about World Builder and I know I am into that. It's a huge advantage to be able to map edit, especially for these SGOTM games.

By the way, there's nothing new about building custom maps on other teams. This is standard practice for some of the best teams. ***Note that FE, OSS and Xteam haven't posted a set yet.
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Before we have that settler ready to go, it would be great to have done some testing. I think the second city placement is a key decision, too. The turn 76 border pop will give us greater visibility out to five tiles. That will help for the third city placement.

@fizban - Are you able to post yet? When you do, please wait for a little discussion about this city placement before you start. Where do you think it should go?

justjohn said:

I have some concerns about the NW 7-tile island:

1) So far we only see 1 crab as a useful square (not counting the forest), which is even less than the 1 fish at SE. In both cases we have to think about whether the city should be placed such that we can use the crab/fish in the inner or outer circle. Of course this depends on surrounding terrain and hopefully resources. Having no resources in inner circle is a clear drawback, but for both these cities, the crab/fish will be available as soon as our capital expands its borders, which is on turn 76.

2) I'm quite sure that the visible plain square on the NW 7-tile island has a streak of tundra in it, so I expect there to be at least one tundra tile next to it, and we risk that the rest of the island is tundra or worse.

3) Lastly, as I said before, we might encounter barbarians on our neighbouring islands, and there is no way to see all tiles of the NW island before committing our Settler ashore. That's another risk as I see it.

Click to expand...

I agree with the first two. The third one just requires two turns of galley movement to check; I assume you realize this.

But the SE island is desert in place of the tundra .