Sorry, didn't want to comment, but I'm forced to do it.. and, please : no need to respond to that… I know that you have made your choice.
However in response to you : In the same way for AS : for every Elayne, there is a "what is her name, I don't recall her, she has so minimal power and never left the tower" brown /gray / white. And for every Elayne, there is an Elaida.
Then you count "average" of WO… but remember : the SHAIDO clan (one of many) had, by itself, almost as many Channelers than the whole tower, and all of those did not hesitate to fight for the clan using the One Power !!! 500 channelers ! the WT has what ? 500-700 chan (none of which can fight unless directly threatened)? and the aiels are not limited to shaido.
Then, as a combat unit… unless you speak about trollocs, AS value is null, the three oats does not allow them to.. unless their life is directly in danger.
Brown : almost never fight : try to gather knowledge,
White : almost never fight : try to understand things
Gray : might go outside and fight… but will try to reason the people before and try to negociate
Yellow: will not fight : will consider that healing the wounded is more important
So you say that AS are of more worth than WO as units (ie: to get field dominance) based on 3 Ajahs… one of which will only search for male channelers? … and in those ajah, most stay at home doing politicing?
And of those going outside, they are ALL (save Nyneave, Elayne and Egwene) useless as combat unit .. (save against trollocs).
And those are considered having more worth as units than Wise One ?
Don't kidd me…
WO have many non-channelers… and so what ? you don't need to represent as units the non-channelers… those can be represented by effects from a building, a policy…etc.
But once you get the tech/policy/whatever that says "Wise Ones are allowed to fight" … then the WO system ought to be able to produce more channelers than WT… and channelers able to fight even non-darkfriends units.
IMO, in the case of LB, you need ways of incentive for fighting/supplying/teching for the last battle.
For FFH: you never tried it ? it's cIV, but … hell, it's a blast (many players still play it 6 years after the end of the official development… there are 5 "main" modmod and multiple other modmods…and those modmods themselves opened up dozens of modmodmods
So: if I were you, I wouldn't focus much on the details I present, but more on the general idea underneath all those details.
Re-"greater consensus" : I never said that it was 66%... I only said that "due to the greater consensus, the WT expresses only 1 choice (for world leader elections).
(then, as a topic unrelated to greater consensus, to make it fair, I think getting 66% of support inside the WT should be the thing… unless getting 51% is already very hard)
But maybe, for other things, you could get support of the tower, even if 30% agree with you : independence of the AS : (and more so of each Ajah): if one ajah support you, it might decide to help you even if the WT as a whole decide not to.
In the age of dragon, AS and WT are identical.
However, following the breaking: and thus, regarding Seanchans and Aiels, AS is not the "WT".
But the "Aiel failed the AS" … does not speak about the WT… but of the AoL AS… which were half male/half female…
The Seanchans: their hatred is related to the AS of the post-breaking .. in their continent: ie: the AS that were not inside the WT !.. In particular, those did not have the 3 Oaths…and that's why they became so murderous !
So, it is true that most of the lands have been influenced by AesSedai … but that comes from the age of legends, when AesSedai were creatures of legend, wisest and more powerful, and more benevolent than all ! Which is not how the "age of Dragon" AS are seen or even how they act anymore.
It is true that the WT is the decent of the AS of old… but somehow they are not as great.
ie: I'm bad with analogies but I'll try (I'm making a reference to FFH, and in particular the RifE modmod, and more knowledgeable may correct the mistakes I'm making here:
the Empire of Patria existed long ago, and was destroyed, the Ice Age arrived and departed, and now you have multiple descendants of Patria:
-the Scions of Patria: a faction of the imperial city that went into undeath and tries to revive the Patria of old and tries to summon old Patrian citizen into coming back into the current age.
-the Amurite: Kyrolin, on of the Mage Leaders of Patria led some people… and this civ revives the powerful magic of Patria
-the Clan of Ember: citizen of Patria that fell when their goddess fell into evil; they were changed into Orcs and goblins.
-the Bannor : citizen that fell with their goddess but escaped from the Fall… they claim that their purity and military power comes from following the precepts of Patria.).
For me, translated in the WoT, we have the AS of the AoL:
Then we have legacies of it: in most of the world, the channelers, following the great Breaking, thought themselves, and were called : AesSedai !
However, in our particular case it is complicated by the fact that one of the main "nation/factors" of the book kept the same name as those AesSedai of old...
However depending on nations /regions, it went differently:
-The seanchan AS : went "personnal" and dictatorial : were distrusted, destroyed and captured when Hawking came, and the adam was created (and the "perceived evils" of AS is no more "perceived" and "unjustified" than the "perceived evils" of Male channelers as seen by the WT. Even after saidin is cleasned they wants to control (as a puppet) the Dragon (which even Egwen want to place under "guidance" of the WT) and place AesSedai over all other channelers, be them wise ones or cleansed ashamans...(which stay an "abomination" for AesSedai of the WT for the whole book, even after saidin is cleansed). The AS of Seanchan were really evil.. so Seanchans are correct in their fear of uncontrolled Marathdamane.. However were they are lacking is that they cannot change their opinion and see that the WT is an institution made to control Marath'daman and made to forbid them from going into rampage, and that their fear/hatred becomes unjustified with regard to Marath'daman;.. but the contempt of WT AesSedai with regard to all other people in the world is as much unjustified).
-Aiels AS: due to the specific relation as former servants of the AS of the AoL, and specific prophecies, the Aiel channelers never thought of themselves as AS, while in fact they are, in all but name. Further, this history made them think that the WT AesSedai were the true descent of AesSedai of the AoL... quickly in the story of the WoT they do not follow that creed anymore.
-Westlands: the AS, after being distrusted and, maybe hunted…?, allied themselves, created a "channeler institution": the White Tower (by opposition to male channelers : black part of the AesSedai symbole), and took the three Oaths.
However, all this has no real value, as: you are already decided on that interpretation
being more constructive
Re-LB:
Idea :
-Once Thakan'dar is taken; all seals in Light Cities (maybe in cities with AS/Chaneler as governor) are "freely" destroyed, enabling to launch the "seal the bore" project.
-all game length (even during LB) : each seal "destroyed" increases power of the Thakan'dar CS (or the "Dark One" fictive CS), and/or increase trollocs/Myrdhal/Forsaken generation / random "bubble of evil" generation.
Seals are hard to destroy early/mid game, but easier to destroy during LB
-Allow a "trade the Seals" in-between Light players, if the seals is not in adequate city.
Seals are "common artifacts" revealed: by forsaken, or "special tech / policy / spell"
(maybe some 3-4 seals are automatically destroyed during early years of Age of Dragon : your artefact is revealed as "remains of a Great Seal")
So Light has an interest to gather and protect the seals (less power to DO), and thus all "AoL artifacts"
Shadow has an interest to gather and destroy seals, all game long, but especially during Age of Dragon / AoL.
Light/Shadow declare war / or send espionage heavy teams (AS/Ashamen/bloodblades) on neutral civs that have Seals but do not trade them/give them… (much easy once waygates/travelling has been discovered).
(maybe having 3-4 seals broken couldbe another way to trigger the LB)
Then maybe, if the Dragon is killed, on other T'avern can do the deed for sealing ? or another Channeler GP.
first of all, I agree with you for WindMistresses: they are boosts to their boats. End of discussion.But, when we're talking about playable *units* in the game, this isn't all that relevant. Remember that WO are not required to channel. This means, by definition, that, even though they may "catch" all the channeling girls in the Wastes, on average a WO's channeling ability will be less than an AS's. Remember, the WT is routinely criticized for being *too strict* when it comes to letting people in, which has hurt their total numbers. The wise ones, by contrast, are chosen for their personality/personal abilities, in addition to their channeling. So for every Aviendha, there's a Sorilea and a Sevannah.
To me, this means we have to treat the AS *unit* as more powerful in terms of game-mechanics as the WOs. Sure, maybe a WO unit can dreamwalk and do some other kinds of stuff that ASs can't (often, at least), but in terms of combat units (which most units are for in Civ), the AS are likely to be superior. The *benefits* of the WO can lie in other areas of the game, perhaps reflected by a specific unit, but also perhaps merely represented by the Aiel UA in general. I'd like to hear thoughts on this.
However in response to you : In the same way for AS : for every Elayne, there is a "what is her name, I don't recall her, she has so minimal power and never left the tower" brown /gray / white. And for every Elayne, there is an Elaida.
Then you count "average" of WO… but remember : the SHAIDO clan (one of many) had, by itself, almost as many Channelers than the whole tower, and all of those did not hesitate to fight for the clan using the One Power !!! 500 channelers ! the WT has what ? 500-700 chan (none of which can fight unless directly threatened)? and the aiels are not limited to shaido.
Then, as a combat unit… unless you speak about trollocs, AS value is null, the three oats does not allow them to.. unless their life is directly in danger.
Brown : almost never fight : try to gather knowledge,
White : almost never fight : try to understand things
Gray : might go outside and fight… but will try to reason the people before and try to negociate
Yellow: will not fight : will consider that healing the wounded is more important
So you say that AS are of more worth than WO as units (ie: to get field dominance) based on 3 Ajahs… one of which will only search for male channelers? … and in those ajah, most stay at home doing politicing?
And of those going outside, they are ALL (save Nyneave, Elayne and Egwene) useless as combat unit .. (save against trollocs).
And those are considered having more worth as units than Wise One ?
Don't kidd me…
WO have many non-channelers… and so what ? you don't need to represent as units the non-channelers… those can be represented by effects from a building, a policy…etc.
But once you get the tech/policy/whatever that says "Wise Ones are allowed to fight" … then the WO system ought to be able to produce more channelers than WT… and channelers able to fight even non-darkfriends units.
I agree that score is kinda lame… but having a team victory is kinda lame too… you just have to bother everybody from reaching their personnal victory, push for LB, ally with light, then turtle, and let them win it for you.You are correct that the "fair" contribution to the cause is a potential problem. However, the Score victory is lame for reasons (both in principle and in practice). expressed well by S3rgeus.
Never played FFH - worth checking out?
IMO, in the case of LB, you need ways of incentive for fighting/supplying/teching for the last battle.
For FFH: you never tried it ? it's cIV, but … hell, it's a blast (many players still play it 6 years after the end of the official development… there are 5 "main" modmod and multiple other modmods…and those modmods themselves opened up dozens of modmodmods
Well, obviously there are details, but keep in mind that for me, the details are more things that flesh out the system than real "I propose those" details. Take them more as "those are things that more accurately express the global idea I want to present".My my that's a LOT of details! As S3rgeus said afterwards, I'm a bit afraid of too many details at this point, since we're in the middle of the epic LB discussion.... and the Religion discussion. But this will all be helpful later.
So: if I were you, I wouldn't focus much on the details I present, but more on the general idea underneath all those details.
Re-"greater consensus" : I never said that it was 66%... I only said that "due to the greater consensus, the WT expresses only 1 choice (for world leader elections).
(then, as a topic unrelated to greater consensus, to make it fair, I think getting 66% of support inside the WT should be the thing… unless getting 51% is already very hard)
But maybe, for other things, you could get support of the tower, even if 30% agree with you : independence of the AS : (and more so of each Ajah): if one ajah support you, it might decide to help you even if the WT as a whole decide not to.
IMO you are mixing up AesSedai and WT…I disagree that the AS have no influence on the Aiel, the SF, and the 'chan.
- The Aiel are in the three fold land for the sole reason that they felt they had failed the AS and needed it as punishment.
- The SF's culture and secretive nature is in part due to their wanting to hide their channelers from the AS.
- The whole philosophy of the Seanchan, including their hatred of channelers, is all wrapped up in the AS and their perceived evils.
True, the WT doesn't have POSITIVE influence on these cultures, but it is extremely IMPORTANT to them. Yes?
In the age of dragon, AS and WT are identical.
However, following the breaking: and thus, regarding Seanchans and Aiels, AS is not the "WT".
But the "Aiel failed the AS" … does not speak about the WT… but of the AoL AS… which were half male/half female…
The Seanchans: their hatred is related to the AS of the post-breaking .. in their continent: ie: the AS that were not inside the WT !.. In particular, those did not have the 3 Oaths…and that's why they became so murderous !
So, it is true that most of the lands have been influenced by AesSedai … but that comes from the age of legends, when AesSedai were creatures of legend, wisest and more powerful, and more benevolent than all ! Which is not how the "age of Dragon" AS are seen or even how they act anymore.
It is true that the WT is the decent of the AS of old… but somehow they are not as great.
ie: I'm bad with analogies but I'll try (I'm making a reference to FFH, and in particular the RifE modmod, and more knowledgeable may correct the mistakes I'm making here:
the Empire of Patria existed long ago, and was destroyed, the Ice Age arrived and departed, and now you have multiple descendants of Patria:
-the Scions of Patria: a faction of the imperial city that went into undeath and tries to revive the Patria of old and tries to summon old Patrian citizen into coming back into the current age.
-the Amurite: Kyrolin, on of the Mage Leaders of Patria led some people… and this civ revives the powerful magic of Patria
-the Clan of Ember: citizen of Patria that fell when their goddess fell into evil; they were changed into Orcs and goblins.
-the Bannor : citizen that fell with their goddess but escaped from the Fall… they claim that their purity and military power comes from following the precepts of Patria.).
For me, translated in the WoT, we have the AS of the AoL:
Then we have legacies of it: in most of the world, the channelers, following the great Breaking, thought themselves, and were called : AesSedai !
However, in our particular case it is complicated by the fact that one of the main "nation/factors" of the book kept the same name as those AesSedai of old...
However depending on nations /regions, it went differently:
-The seanchan AS : went "personnal" and dictatorial : were distrusted, destroyed and captured when Hawking came, and the adam was created (and the "perceived evils" of AS is no more "perceived" and "unjustified" than the "perceived evils" of Male channelers as seen by the WT. Even after saidin is cleasned they wants to control (as a puppet) the Dragon (which even Egwen want to place under "guidance" of the WT) and place AesSedai over all other channelers, be them wise ones or cleansed ashamans...(which stay an "abomination" for AesSedai of the WT for the whole book, even after saidin is cleansed). The AS of Seanchan were really evil.. so Seanchans are correct in their fear of uncontrolled Marathdamane.. However were they are lacking is that they cannot change their opinion and see that the WT is an institution made to control Marath'daman and made to forbid them from going into rampage, and that their fear/hatred becomes unjustified with regard to Marath'daman;.. but the contempt of WT AesSedai with regard to all other people in the world is as much unjustified).
-Aiels AS: due to the specific relation as former servants of the AS of the AoL, and specific prophecies, the Aiel channelers never thought of themselves as AS, while in fact they are, in all but name. Further, this history made them think that the WT AesSedai were the true descent of AesSedai of the AoL... quickly in the story of the WoT they do not follow that creed anymore.
-Westlands: the AS, after being distrusted and, maybe hunted…?, allied themselves, created a "channeler institution": the White Tower (by opposition to male channelers : black part of the AesSedai symbole), and took the three Oaths.
However, all this has no real value, as: you are already decided on that interpretation
being more constructive
Re-LB:
Idea :
-Once Thakan'dar is taken; all seals in Light Cities (maybe in cities with AS/Chaneler as governor) are "freely" destroyed, enabling to launch the "seal the bore" project.
-all game length (even during LB) : each seal "destroyed" increases power of the Thakan'dar CS (or the "Dark One" fictive CS), and/or increase trollocs/Myrdhal/Forsaken generation / random "bubble of evil" generation.
Seals are hard to destroy early/mid game, but easier to destroy during LB
-Allow a "trade the Seals" in-between Light players, if the seals is not in adequate city.
Seals are "common artifacts" revealed: by forsaken, or "special tech / policy / spell"
(maybe some 3-4 seals are automatically destroyed during early years of Age of Dragon : your artefact is revealed as "remains of a Great Seal")
So Light has an interest to gather and protect the seals (less power to DO), and thus all "AoL artifacts"
Shadow has an interest to gather and destroy seals, all game long, but especially during Age of Dragon / AoL.
Light/Shadow declare war / or send espionage heavy teams (AS/Ashamen/bloodblades) on neutral civs that have Seals but do not trade them/give them… (much easy once waygates/travelling has been discovered).
(maybe having 3-4 seals broken couldbe another way to trigger the LB)
Then maybe, if the Dragon is killed, on other T'avern can do the deed for sealing ? or another Channeler GP.