It's not Islam, is it?

You should really stop trying to make excuses for these things because they do happen.

Making excuses?

You bring up "I had a friend, and he was "practicallY" forced to become a MUslim at gunpoint.

My friends have been or lived in the middle east and have witnessed these things first hand, you have not.

But I have friends in the middle east too!

Ruh Roh.

And, one is not Muslim! Double ruh-roh. Now what?

He is christian, and lives (and was born) in Lebanon. And he has never once complained of discrimination to me.

And he still lives there. And I still talk to him.

Now what?

Should we start comparing facebook profiles to prove who has more friends in the middle east, so our own little anecdotes of rumors will carry more weight in our quest to finally determine whether Islam is a violent religion or not?

Let's have a facebook-off. I have more friends than you I bet! :rolleyes:

Stop pretending that you have any authority of experience with these things in the middle east.

As if you do? You come in with a "practically held a gun to his head" which means no gun was held to his head, you just use the term "practically" to make it sound like it was so, to inflate your own cheap anecdote.

and, and, and then, the muslim took the baby up in a hot air balloon, with rainbow colors on it, and then, he, he threw the baby off the balloon, and the baby died. :eek:

the way that non-muslims are discriminated against in Muslim countries is far more severe than prejudice and discrimination here.

Yeah, I know huh? Like every time a muslim cop kills a non-muslim citizen, the investigating board finds the shooting justified. And I bet non-muslim ghettos in muslim countries are worse than South Central, especially if you look at the income disparity.

:rolleyes:

whatever dude.
 
First of all, I don't think you know the history of Islam or that region very well
Lol, some islampaphobic ignoramus, obviously with a tainted view on the history of Islam, telling a muslim he knows more about Islam's history than the muslim.

What's even funnier, is Haroon has written quite a bit already about the histoy of Islamic claiphates, etc.

But fallenAngelLord knows everything, and is going to talk down to Haroon. :lol:

A lot of the traditions and cultures that we see today were post-islam and not pre-islam.

...and? Female circumcision, which some fool tried to say was Islams, was and is a tribal holdover. It did not come from Islam, and certainly is nowhere in the Koran.

But Islamaphobes will blame everything and anything they can on the religion. Screw reading history, or learning about the complexities of cultural integration of religion... ..it's all teh Islams' fault!!1!

The culture and its repressive attitude towards females is at least partly inspired or at least kept in place by the religion.

LoL. Abrahamic religions are inherently patriarchal. What a load of crap.
Honor killings happens in ancient times, but not only in that area, its just that the rest of the world has moved on while the muslim world has not and even regressed.

The entire Muslim world?
BTW, a woman in the united states killed her daughter after she found out she wasn't a virgin a few years ago. Was that an honor killing?

For your war comment, the Arab countries did start a war with israel in the 1960s and lost, that why they lost a lot of land.

they started the war? I could have swore, Israel pre-emptively struck. Of course, nobody says Judaism is inherently violent, although they have killed 10 Palestinian citizens for every Jew that has been killed by Palestinians.

The obvious answer, is that violence is far more complex than religion. But simple minds seek simple answers.
 
Do you feel the same way about fundamentalists, evangelists, and other conservative Christians doing essentially the same thing in the US, as well as South and Central America and much of Africa, on a regular basis? Or Jews who do the same thing in Israel by claiming it is their promised land and who base everything they do on the Torah?

What do you expect overly religious people to do? To be secular humanists instead?

I feel the same about any religion who tries to legally force their views on other people. I'm Christian myself but God is the final judge, not us. Our job is simply to tell the people about the Gospel and make it known, not force them to accept it.

Preaching the Gospel on the quad at the campus is not the same thing as threatening to kill or expel people if they don't convert.

Zeal of religion is fine, but you can't force it legally or physically on anyone else.


As if you do? You come in with a "practically held a gun to his head" which means no gun was held to his head, you just use the term "practically" to make it sound like it was so, to inflate your own cheap anecdote.

When I say "practically held a gun to his head" I mean he pointed the gun at his face and threatened to shoot. I'm well aware of the history of the caliphates from Mohammed. Islam was a religion in its early days that was spread by conquest.


LoL. Abrahamic religions are inherently patriarchal. What a load of crap.

Most of the world is partriachal, we have been since the cave-man days. But the Islamic cultures are more extreme than that.

Also, its not rare that followers of a religion are not that knowledgeable about the religion's history or the the things surrounding and often Muslim, Judian, and Christians have an extremely tainted view of their own religion because they've been brought up in it so their going to be more biased than anyone else.


Female circumcision, which some fool tried to say was Islams, was and is a tribal holdover. It did not come from Islam, and certainly is nowhere in the Koran.

Yeah, but everyone else got rid of it. Muslims didn't. The main difference between them and other people even within that area of the world is religion.
 
I feel the same about any religion who tries to legally force their views on other people. I'm Christian myself but God is the final judge, not us. Our job is simply to tell the people about the Gospel and make it known, not force them to accept it.

Preaching the Gospel on the quad at the campus is not the same thing as threatening to kill or expel people if they don't convert.

Zeal of religion is fine, but you can't force it legally or physically on anyone else.
That, I suggest, is more or less true of Christianity since the beginning of the C20th, but not before. Not really.
 
When I say "practically held a gun to his head" I mean he pointed the gun at his face and threatened to shoot. I'm well aware of the history of the caliphates from Mohammed. Islam was a religion in its early days that was spread by conquest.



“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

God says:

“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)

God says:

“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” (Quran 3:20)

God says:

“The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” (Quran 5:99)

These forcing things I don't believe it, its out from our doctrine, muslim never have inquisition and never careless about someone faith that is why in Arabic country that been rule by muslim for more than a thousand year you can still a vast christian population over there. Since they ancestor they can hold what their believe, we don't have these inquisition doctrine within us.

And I think it not exactly your friend who experiences it, it possibly your friend "heard" that... while in that case it is false. Why don't the Egyptian do that to Coptic at the 700-800 AD? or even now? because you must know, the muslim never care this things, what they obligatory is to convey, peoples accept it or not is out from their responsibility and right to force it on other.

Refer from the surah above, this is our doctrine, that is Islam. If you talk about Islam talk about Quran and hadith.
 
And I think it not exactly your friend who experiences it, it possibly your friend "heard" that... while in that case it is false. Why don't the Egyptian do that to Coptic at the 700-800 AD? or even now? because you must know, the muslim never care this things, what they obligatory is to convey, peoples accept it or not is out from their responsibility and right to force it on other.

Refer from the surah above, this is our doctrine, that is Islam. If you talk about Islam talk about Quran and hadith.

No, the guy it happened to lived next door to him, they were together for a community gathering when it happened. He saw it.

And the 2nd part of your statement isn't true. In many muslim countries, you have to carry a religious ID. If it is not muslim, you are discriminated against in many area, including getting many jobs and promotions. That is not legally allowed in the western world based on religion. That is a a pretty overt way to make people become Muslim. You cannot deny that.
I don't really think you can deny that Mohammed led armies to conquer a lot of surrounding lands and his successors did that same.
Mohammed, whether you believe he's a prophet or not, is undoutely a military genius and one of the most successful generals in history.

That, I suggest, is more or less true of Christianity since the beginning of the C20th, but not before. Not really.
Depends where, witch-hunts had basically stopped by the 1800s.
 
Why is no-one talking about the tradition of open, multiple religions in India is due to The great Moghul emperor, Akbar?

Anybody want to talk about Akbar for a while? How he invited prophets/preists of all religions to come to his temple, that he built, specifically for religious debate, because he loved to hear all the philosophies?

Any Islamaphobes ever even hear about this guy?


LoL
 
2:191
"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

4:89
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
4:104
"And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

8:12
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
8:39
"And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

9:5
"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
9:14
"Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
9:30
"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

There are plenty, plenty of verses like this. Mind, though, I quote these from an Islamophobic site - so maybe they have misrepresented these verses. Let's not be hasty.
 
2:191

4:89
4:104
8:12
8:39
9:5
9:14
9:30

There are plenty of verses like this.

For a minute, those looked like some of the bible versus I'm familiar with. And the Talmud endorses violence too! Who would have thought?
 
No, the guy it happened to lived next door to him, they were together for a community gathering when it happened. He saw it.

LoL, so now it is third hand account. How rabid of an Islamaphobe is your friend who supposedly saw this happen? As rabid as you?

It could have happened, but, I dunno, I just don't trust the third hand account of a Christian trying to spread Islamaphobia.

Call me crazy. But Christians and their stories of modern day persecution are almost always GREATLY exaggerated.


(I know, you are right, because your God, YHWH is the real God, not Allah. :lol: )
 
2:191


4:89

4:104


8:12

8:39


9:5

9:14

9:30


There are plenty, plenty of verses like this.

yes that ayah reveal in the time of war. These surah is reveal in Badr, Uhud, and Tabook, but some of the "()" can be misleading, did u quote it from a website like "answering islam"? their add commentary like this : (disorder, unbelief), to explain the definition of Fitnah is not true.

These ayah explaining about the forbidden to run from the battlefield. Also some to encourage and give understanding if we inflict pain, so do they are :

4:104
Quote:
"And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

this surah is Ali Imran, as I memorize many ayah from this surah.

At war, the enemy must either conquer or paying tax or jizya, or they appear to be a new brother for the muslim. But in war, we are forbid to kill the one who not participate the war, the cripple, women, old man, children. So surah that you mention is the ayah and compilation of ruling about war, not in calm and peaceful condition.

And don't take one ayah and make conclusion, read the previous and next ayah, so you get a clear picture.
 
LoL, so now it is third hand account. How rabid of an Islamaphobe is your friend who supposedly saw this happen? As rabid as you?

It could have happened, but, I dunno, I just don't trust the third hand account of a Christian trying to spread Islamaphobia.

Call me crazy. But Christians and their stories of modern day persecution are almost always GREATLY exaggerated.


(I know, you are right, because your God, YHWH is the real God, not Allah. :lol: )

My friend was in the apartment when it happened, Saw it firsthand. There's a lot of former muslims who escape that tell these things. You know the penalty for converting to christainity from islam in countries like iran is really severe, right?

But sure, go ahead and call anyone who says anything bad about islam an "Isamaphobe". Really helps you argument.

As for religious ID countries, there was a really big controversy lately in Egypt about this topic and Indonesia is another country where you carry a religious ID card. All these things are is to serve as ways to discriminate.
 
Sure, Haroon. These things are never simple. Unfortunately, all too easily violent people can make religious texts mean exactly what they want.

I've kept meaning to get hold of some proper, modern, Sufi texts for some time. The Quran looks OK, in places, but reminds me far too much of the Old Testament.
 
Sure, Haroon. These things are never simple. Unfortunately, all too easily violent people can make religious texts mean exactly what they want.

I've kept meaning to get hold of some proper, modern, Sufi texts for some time. The Quran looks OK, in places, but reminds me far too much of the Old Testament.

What I can remember of (a translation of) the Quran, there is a very clear distinction between the period where he is in Mecca, a lone prophet preaching to the poor, the women and the slaves, and the period in Medina, a leader telling people what to do and plotting the capture of Mecca.

The first part is rather peaceful, open towards all kind of groups and Kumbaya, while the second part is more aggressive and also contains more rules on how to live. I guess the New and Old Testament have the same characteristics.

However, the verses are usually not ordered chronologically in the Quran, making this distinction more difficult.
 
And the later verses (but not chronologically ordered, you say) abrogate the earlier.

So which is it: do the violent verses have primacy over the peaceful ones or vice versa?
 
Dunno. Pick the ones you like?
 
I'd like to believe Islam is a religion of peace.

Unfortunately, it seems all too capable of being used for violent ends. Much like Christianity. Or indeed any religion at all. Even Buddhism. (edit: though Jainism seems pretty much extremely non-violent)

I'm always intrigued by the commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

Seems clear enough to me. But the number of the people of the Book who actually subscribe to this is disappearingly small.
 
Yeah, but everyone else got rid of it. Muslims didn't. The main difference between them and other people even within that area of the world is religion.

It is not that widespread of a practice, and the only other non-muslim place it happened was Kenya. Keeping the tradition was one of the causes of the mau mau rebellion.

Why do you keep spouting such garbage when you are obviously clueless on what you are talking about?

Oh, yeah, I forgot, you have divine insight from the one true God, YHWH, and Allah is just an imposter.

Islamaphobia is now part of the fundamentalist Christian's tactic of evangelism.
Islam is religion of war, join the true religion of peace, Christianity!!

My friend was in the apartment when it happened, Saw it firsthand. There's a lot of former muslims who escape that tell these things. You know the penalty for converting to christainity from islam in countries like iran is really severe, right?

But sure, go ahead and call anyone who says anything bad about islam an "Isamaphobe". Really helps you argument.

Ok, christian crusader, whatever you say must be truth.
Your God is the true god, I get it.. blah blah blah.
Islam evil, christianity good, blah blah blah

You are just as stuck in the stone age as "the muslim world" is. You don't fool me, god-boy.

As for religious ID countries, there was a really big controversy lately in Egypt about this topic and Indonesia is another country where you carry a religious ID card. All these things are is to serve as ways to discriminate

Oh, great google-fu on backing up a rumor you just blabbed on a forum, without ever even checking it out yourself? I bet I was the first to ever challenge you on such a rumor, huh?

Name some more, you said "many muslim countries" like it was practically the rule for "the muslim world" so far, I have only found Indonesia. That would be ONE country.

So, who told you about this ID card in many countries? Same friend who saw someone who saw people, quote "practically going around pointing guns at people and shooting them unless the convert to Islam"

LoL, "shooting them." LoL, you have friends who went there and saw this :lol: You are now expert on Islam because you have friends who saw this happen to a neighbor.... (practically) :lol: "practically"

And then the Muslim took the baby, and put hot coals on its lips, and when the baby cried, the muslim would spank it until it dinnit cry anymore, it just had to eat the coals, even if they were still hot

"practically going around pointing guns at people and shooting them unless the convert to Islam"

"practically going around pointing guns at people and shooting them unless the convert to Islam"

Pfft... :lol::lol:
I've had people return from the Middle Easter countries and many of them tell of these things happening from time to time.

I've had people return from the Middle Easter countries and many of them tell of these things happening from time to time.

Either you or your friends are a liar. :lol:

Oh, and this is good too "many of them" just like your "many of the countries"

Many? Really? So you had at least 4 friends come back from the middle east who saw:

"practically going around pointing guns at people and shooting them unless the convert to Islam"

Or did you mean few? Or maybe you meant even one?

Is Christianity the religion of lies?

Fallen Angel Lord sure seems to be a big liar.

Did you learn to lie from Christianity, FAL?

:lol:
 
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