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Jewel Runner
What do you think about theories that the events in the Book of Mormon took place in Malaysia or Africa? How widespread are these among Mormons as a whole? How do people justify them with the "On this continent" thing?
Ask a Mormon, Part 4
- Thread starter Eran of Arcadia
- Start date
I have never heard such theories, but as neither place is within walking distance of upstate New York I find it unlikely.
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
That is circular logic. But since we are on the subject of Mormonism, the process of conversion most often experienced by people who meet with our missionaries, is one of experience, similar to what you said here:Plotinus said:
To be more precise, Mormon missionaries ask "investigators" (people who are prospective converts, or at least want to know if the Church is true), to study out the doctrines, and then ask God, with faith and sincere intent, whether the doctrines are true. If the resulting experience convinces one that the doctrines are true, then the investigators are invited to be baptized and join.
I'm not sure what you mean by uncomfortable truth, but it is a topic that makes a lot of people wonder, both inside and outside the Church. Personally I believe that it was a culturally-based practice. Although some members of the church hierarchy have even attempted to explain it, there has never been an official explanation.Harvin87 said:
It should be clarified perhaps that even a pronouncement from the President/Prophet of the Church would not necessarily be an official explanation. The standard for doctrine is that a message be jointly endorsed by the presiding council (the First Presidency, composed of the President and his two counselors), the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, and then put to the general membership of the Church for ratification/vote. The most recent document/announcement that passed this standard was in 1995 when the Proclamation on the Family was issued.
These theories are not widely held. You can find very few Mormons who believe them. The majority believe that the events of the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. A sizable minority believe that they took place further north, closer to the Great Lakes area. Recently DNA evidence has supported this view--an obscure gene marker has been identified that occurs with any concentration in only a handful of places in the world--including Palestine and near the Great Lakes region. Here is a link to a site on the topic: http://bookofmormonevidence.org/index.phpRandomnerd10 said:
Harvin87
The Youth
No, perhaps my meaning wasn't clear: I meant that people cease to believe in God because they find that the belief - in all its cognitive and non-cognitive elements - and associated practices do not reflect their experience of life. To put it crudely, when they pray they do not feel like anyone is listening. I think that conversion both to and from religious faith has far more to do with this kind of existential experience than it does with any arguments. That doesn't mean it's irrational, though. On the contrary, adopting beliefs that mesh with your own experience seems to me an on-the-face-of-it pretty rational approach.
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
Plotinus, I'm sorry, it seems I misunderstood you; thanks for clarifying.
Harvin87, any particular other wrenches you are interested in?
Harvin87, any particular other wrenches you are interested in?
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Jewel Runner
I got my info from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_geography_model_(Book_of_Mormon)#Malay_Peninsular_setting I believe an older edit mentioned another author who hypothesized an African setting. That being said, what seems to be the most popular opinion among Mormons about the geography of the Book of Mormon?
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
Central America is the most commonly believed theory. This is often reinforced by media (especially paintings and films produced or commissioned by the Church) depicting Book of Mormon scenes taking place amid Mesoamerican pyramid temples and other cultural markers of that region.
Yeah, every Mormon I have met who actually has a specific opinion on the matter (and doesn't just think "the entire Western Hemisphere") associates it with Mesoamerica.
warpus
In pork I trust
Were there ever any popular movies produced that depict the events in the Book of Mormon?
The Jews and Christians have The Ten Commandments, the Christians have The Passion of the Christ.. Are there any Mormon equivalents?
The Jews and Christians have The Ten Commandments, the Christians have The Passion of the Christ.. Are there any Mormon equivalents?
The Church has made a few movies depicting events from the Book of Mormon, but those weren't released theatrically. There was a movie that saw limited release, depicting the first parts of the Book of Mormon, but apparently it wasn't very good.
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
Where I live in the Iowa/Illinois border area, there are more who believe it took place in N. America, based on statements Joseph Smith made about the mound builders being Book of Mormon people, and the city of Zarahemla being formerly located across the river from where Nauvoo was sited. Like has been said though, that's a minority view.Eran of Arcadia said:
Here's the imdb page on "The Book of Mormon Movie, vol 1": link. It didn't do very well.Eran of Arcadia said:
At Temple Square in Salt Lake City, UT there is a theatre where you can see The Testaments, which depicts a story situated in the Book of Mormon setting. The film was produced by the Church, and tickets are free. It is a missionary outreach film.
There were also a lot of straight-to-video films. Most notable are the "Living Scriptures" cartoons; there are at least 12 titles in their Book of Mormon videos (they also have ones on Old Testament and New Testament stories). Here's a list of the titles: link.
Well, yes, there is a city of Zarahemla in Iowa across the Mississippi from Nauvoo . . .
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
Here is the imdb page on "The Testaments": link
You can watch it on youtube in 7 parts. Here is a link
It is also available at cost of production ($4.50) at LDS bookstores and on the Church Distribution online catalogue: link.
I hope that last link works...it was very long.
You can watch it on youtube in 7 parts. Here is a link
It is also available at cost of production ($4.50) at LDS bookstores and on the Church Distribution online catalogue: link.
I hope that last link works...it was very long.
I saw The Testaments in the MTC, along with Legacy, which I liked more.
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
This is for Eran, but anyone else who wants to answer is welcome.
Why do you think we have talks at baptismal services? They are uniformly on the topics of "baptism" and "the Holy Ghost." I get really annoyed by some of the patterns in the way they are given, which I feel can be counterproductive to the purpose of the rest of the service. I don't know if it's just tradition, or if it's in the General Handbook of Instructions or what, but I sure wish sometimes that they would be abolished.
Why do you think we have talks at baptismal services? They are uniformly on the topics of "baptism" and "the Holy Ghost." I get really annoyed by some of the patterns in the way they are given, which I feel can be counterproductive to the purpose of the rest of the service. I don't know if it's just tradition, or if it's in the General Handbook of Instructions or what, but I sure wish sometimes that they would be abolished.
My money is on "tradition", since I am not sure that is the sort of thing that would be in the General Handbook (it's awfully specific), but I am not sure what you mean by patterns. And usually everyone there has heard the same talks a dozen times, but not the baptizee. Still, I wish they would mix it up a bit.
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
By patterns I mean things like saying that this is only the first step, that you still have a long way left to go, that IF you are worthy and IF you are righteous and IF you try to keep your environment conducive to the Spirit and IF you keep the commandments THEN you will have the Holy Ghost to be your constant companion, blah blah blah.
1. No one is righteous.
2. No one ever has the Holy Ghost as their constant companion.
3. It's only be the grace of Christ that we are worthy of his companionship.
4. There are so many times I can't count them that my home has been messy and chaotic (i.e., not "conducive to the Spirit"), my kids were annoying me (i.e., I was mad at them and not "righteous"), and yet I still was prompted by the Spirit to do something that would make things better. I have also had countless times when I was in a sinful state, such as actively entertaining the idea of following a particular temptation, and yet I still was being reached out to by the Spirit, invited and enticed to come to Jesus rather than give in to sin.
I would really like to see someone giving one of these talks just rejoice with the new member in what a wonderful day it is for him/her and share the joyful wonderful feeling that is present, rather than the glass-is-half-empty/gloom and drudgery approach ("it's a long road ahead"; "you still have a lot more to learn/a lot further to go"; "you aren't there yet"). It would be great to hear one of them say, "Isn't this a wonderful feeling? I'm so glad you are a part of us now!" There are many members of the wards I'm in who would give uplifting encouraging talks, but for some reason they always pick people who see this new member moment as an opportunity to warn them against getting their hopes up, resting on their laurels, and letting this day be the high point of a possible slump into inactivity. You know what they say about self-fulfilling prophesies? I wonder if we start off on the wrong foot by imagining that the new convert doesn't have a commitment to finish what has been started.
That leads to another pattern that really irks me. Way too often these talks cover material that should already have been covered in the missionary discussions. If we really are worried that the new convert doesn't understand these things (like what is baptism, and what is the Holy Ghost), then we shouldn't be holding a baptism--we should be holding off until the candidate is more prepared. So it is insulting to pretend that the talks are for the baptisee (they are usually addressed to the candidate). Often I get the impression that who they are really for is the non-LDS friends and family that are attending. In that case, they should be geared to a non-member audience--not worded as though the candidate is lacking some kind of basic instruction.
1. No one is righteous.
2. No one ever has the Holy Ghost as their constant companion.
3. It's only be the grace of Christ that we are worthy of his companionship.
4. There are so many times I can't count them that my home has been messy and chaotic (i.e., not "conducive to the Spirit"), my kids were annoying me (i.e., I was mad at them and not "righteous"), and yet I still was prompted by the Spirit to do something that would make things better. I have also had countless times when I was in a sinful state, such as actively entertaining the idea of following a particular temptation, and yet I still was being reached out to by the Spirit, invited and enticed to come to Jesus rather than give in to sin.
I would really like to see someone giving one of these talks just rejoice with the new member in what a wonderful day it is for him/her and share the joyful wonderful feeling that is present, rather than the glass-is-half-empty/gloom and drudgery approach ("it's a long road ahead"; "you still have a lot more to learn/a lot further to go"; "you aren't there yet"). It would be great to hear one of them say, "Isn't this a wonderful feeling? I'm so glad you are a part of us now!" There are many members of the wards I'm in who would give uplifting encouraging talks, but for some reason they always pick people who see this new member moment as an opportunity to warn them against getting their hopes up, resting on their laurels, and letting this day be the high point of a possible slump into inactivity. You know what they say about self-fulfilling prophesies? I wonder if we start off on the wrong foot by imagining that the new convert doesn't have a commitment to finish what has been started.
That leads to another pattern that really irks me. Way too often these talks cover material that should already have been covered in the missionary discussions. If we really are worried that the new convert doesn't understand these things (like what is baptism, and what is the Holy Ghost), then we shouldn't be holding a baptism--we should be holding off until the candidate is more prepared. So it is insulting to pretend that the talks are for the baptisee (they are usually addressed to the candidate). Often I get the impression that who they are really for is the non-LDS friends and family that are attending. In that case, they should be geared to a non-member audience--not worded as though the candidate is lacking some kind of basic instruction.
