The Sinister Scheme of Dr. Fu Manchu

I today for learning purposes tried Oracle->constr with WK supposed to have "similar" map (I rolled continents map script since fractal seemed really dumb with the land)

I did 3 city Oracle->constr the rest 3 were settled actually after the Oracle.

I have to admit that running with siege only and killing everything felt weird and OP.

Oracle->constr 1280BC


775BC attack date


250BC it's over for Egypt


I provide save too for inspiration

edit:

from what I got it seemed to me that bombard was less effective then in BtS.
And I really don't like the UI , running binary research will be really painful.

So, our fiendish plot is to develop peacefully toward Korea and leverage our 'Financial + Floodplains' natural advantage so we can attack with Rifles and Cannons in 200 turns?

Doesn't sound particularly dastardly.

Oh well.

continued a bit to get hang of Warlords expansion...

I will state one thing... having non-suicide siege is bastardish, just look at my main stack



Other thing being that the AI in this game is... to be kind - subpar (I would say sucky, dumb etc. otherwise).

The governor AI is absolutely unacceptable and we will have to MM each city :-( (we do anyway, but sometimes you can rely on governor to do right thing one in a century, in warlords almost not).

The cat rush on Monarch works great :-D. I took Monty except for one sucky city and now will launch attack on Izy she doesn't have LB's yet!! at 860AD

I have already Eng so I will test trebs too

One thing I don't like is the UI. I don't have any kind of overview about important things... like bpt and GP points :-(. Number of cities and relation would be nice to have too, but whatever.

V, I saw your getting the construction thru Oracle, but it seems that Math has to have been researched before that. Is that correct?

Sorry with bothering with the parallel game I was going with, just some remarks.

I actually won domination victory even if I hoped I will get through to the industrial transition and SS so dunno how it will look with space race if we go there.

Happened to have over 2k bpt before factories.

I think the map script being Terra we could have really quick domination victory, the only problem being the spies etc. variant rules.

Spies come from Communism. Interesting enough in this game I did Lib->SciMeth. I was very surprised that 1 GS bubled PP fully (but that could be on the matter of my population size).

Knights+Trebs war works reasonably if we will be on run with hwachas.
My K ratio was actually something like 5:1 which is actually pretty good, since I am used to 3:1 with cuirs+cavs charges.

muhaha SS of my best hwacha (I actually lost it even with over 70% odds, shouldn't attacked)


ss of kills and losses (can be good to see the numbers we should expect from enemies)

FiveRings said:

V, I saw your getting the construction thru Oracle, but it seems that Math has to have been researched before that. Is that correct?

Click to expand...

That is correct.

There are 2 ways how to do it, actually 3.

1) Self tech it being the most obvious one (this I used)

2) Get it from trade (happens a lot on deity on pangea-like maps, immortal less)

3) bulb it with early GS, which is for us not viable, since basically you need to do AH->writing, build library and run 2x sci before anything else, but we already are on the way with pottery and it will be too slow to pop GS in time.

Basically you try to sync your Oracle with getting math and masonry. It can be done. I was a bit lazy and didn't do much calculations and got it at first try.

On Monarch I think save date for Oracle is typically before 1k BC (you have more time then on Emperor), Cam can probably correct my view based on his knowledge of AI's in game.

Good thing to watch for Oracle time is the build time of Stonehenge and Judaism. Both are indicator of the plans of AI considering Oracle.

vranasm said:

One thing I don't like is the UI. I don't have any kind of overview about important things... like bpt and GP points :-(. Number of cities and relation would be nice to have too, but whatever.

Click to expand...

My apologies ... I thought that you were complaining about the UU (unique unit) in #101 (not the UI!), and didn't quite grasp the comment about binary research.

Thanks for your investigative efforts.

If I understand correctly, V is very much in favor of a hwacha rush with a view to get domination victory. I think we are on 50-50 odds of getting the Oracle before the AIs (with all the risk of not getting math throu trade). I usually get it on WL and Monarch level - but then I have never before started my capital with a three-turn delay. Researching Masonry while building the Oracle is viable - I've been doing this with regard to Writing to get the CoL.

I like V's idea and am willing to give it a try.

Cam_H said:

My apologies ... I thought that you were complaining about the UU (unique unit) in #101 (not the UI!), and didn't quite grasp the comment about binary research.

Thanks for your investigative efforts.

Click to expand...

well with BUG mod I have there for manipulating slider 2 more buttons : go to 100% science, go to 0% science. So running binary is matter of pushing button once (max twice since you check for the number of turns to finish the research if you are not sure)

To behave the same without this UI improvement, I would have to press each turn the "+" button 10x and if the number of turns is not "ok" I have to press the "-" button 10x... that's like 20x more presses for the same functionality!

And it really is disturbing for me to press everytime I want to know current bpt "F2" to see commerce screen :-(. Add to that that it's not simple to see there the important thing you want to know.

And then is there the matter of WHEEORN mode which is not seen on hand too :-(. Ideally we should check each turn each AI for this message... ugh.

It's too much MM and unneeded as proved by BUG mod ;-).

vranasm said:

Cam can probably correct my view based on his knowledge of AI's in game.

Click to expand...

Nope!

_______

woopdeedoo gone AWOL ... or just a big weekend somewhere in South Africa?

Hi guys. Sorry for going missing. Lots to do this weekend I will play today.

T1 - We meet our nemesis:



We shall be peaceful... FOR NOW MWUAHAHAHA!!
Warrior is also built, schedule another. Move worker to the hill to build a mine while we wait for TW.

T2 - TW in, set BW.

T3 - Warrior built, settler next.

T4 - Roads building and scouting around for stuff.

T5 -

T6 - zzz

T7 - Warrior gets attacked by a wolf but successfully slays the barbarian beast! Heals for 2 turns.

T8 - Cows are hooked up. Time to build another farm methinks.

T9 - My warrior sees that WK has marble. Not sure of viability of Oracle.

T10 - Settler built. Schedule barracks. Move one of the warriors with my settler to the NW horsey spot.

T11 - BW in, schedule Pottery and revolt to slavery.

T12 - zzz

T13 - We meet Mao Zedong:



And Ghandi:



T14 - Settle "Bay of Storms" and build a worker.

T15 - zzz

T16 - Hinduism FIDL

T17 - Roading Manchu's Snarl and Bay of Storms. The are already connected by the river but this is specifically for unit movement.

T18 - WK converts to Hinduism.

T19 - Barracks built, schedule Stonehenge. Also, no copper to be seen anywhere.

T20 - Pottery is in, set to meditation for priesthood/oracle.

All in all, this has been a very quiet TS. WK is rexing a little bit quickly as far as I'm concerned and he is quite chummy with Roosevelt. Could be a problem later on.

Culture:



There's a barb archer NW of BoS. We may want to consider going IW for iron, since we have no copper.

The save:

@woopdeedoo

To be absolutely honest I absolutely don't agree with what you done with the TS.
1) as driving player you should post your plans for the TS
especially when
2) you want to change expected tech path
3) settle the cities which we even didn't agree on yet!

to the actual things being...
4) barracks? ~ 1 worker which we sorely need, guess what I would like better?
5) where are my cottages? where we will get commerce for the math push?
6) switch to slavery for 1T anarchy when we talked about not being able to whip effectively due to weak food?
6) settled in wrong direction! always settle towards AI!!
7) Stonehenge? really? settler throw away
8) our 2nd city should grow, not stall on worker

All these decision costed us Oracle->Constr gambit since I almost think it's not doable.
At current tech rate (which will get a bit better over time, but without cottages being run RIGHT NOW) we look at around 48 turns for getting maths and oracle techs, that's something like 200 BC oracle date -> not doable! And i was planning for attack at 500 BC with cats!

Ok maybe it's a bit harsh, but to be honest you skipping the PPP made me really angry and I feel this as big letdown.

As to my PPP what I would do

1) switch in capital for worker->settler

2) worker goes immedietaly chop 1W of capital the worker, then settler (probably both workers chop settler)

3) settle 1NW of eastern horse

4) horse city switch to building warrior, depending on the archer whip on size 2 (due in 8T), that hill between pigs+corn looks like good place to guard against barbs.

I think it's a bit too soon for barbs to enter cultural borders, so should have time

5) after chopping the 2nd settler immedietaly start on building cottages in capital (ok I would have liked to make cottages before chops, but we are in a hurry, we're already late)

6) techs switch to writing asap

7) capital builds settler/worker depending if we still want to go for Oracle or not.

8) after writing probably Alpha or something else.

9) we could still chop out the Oracle in capital, we could do Oracle->Alpha or CoL

since the plan is for me to play around 10 turns I could probably stop after writing (9T) or after writing+meditation+priesthood if we go Oracle
If we go something else I think it would be good to stop at finishing writing to have clear head.

I think in this situation switching to rex and early Alpha is the better way to go

woopdeedoo,

Thanks for the report. 'Bay of Storms'? World of Warcraft?

I've got to agree with vranasm regarding the importance in putting up a pre-play plan, and agree again especially if there's a possible deviation off the pathway under discussion.

vranasm,

Speaking of PPPs, I like your thinking for your turnset ...

I am not greatly excited about the proposed placement of City #3, except I'm struggling to get too excited with any of the options to our east!

The tiles in that proposed site by-and-large are good, but the four tile overlap with the capital (incl. two Floodplains) is a bit unsettling for me . I have a propensity toward optimal city placement but recognise that it's a bit of a 'weak link' in my own game, so I can live with that spot if you want it. We might be struggling a bit to hold onto those Horses if/when Wang Kon shrines the Holy City, but that shouldn't be a deterrant in itself.

I looked at that Desert Hill a couple of tiles east of the Silks as an alternative. Possibly a better blocker, and another site with a good mix of Floodplains and Hills. I'm not vehment about this alternative, but thought that I'd put it forward for consideration.

'Bottom line' on this one is that the roster can decide, but I'm happy for you to go for that north-west of Horses if you want it, and you think it'll work out better than the Desert Hill (or any other positions that we might look at).

Otherwise, fine by me.

If I understand correctly, both you, V, Cam, assume that WK's shrine is in the city closest to us, to our East, which has already popped culture once. I would be thinking the same way, so I'll continue based on this assumption and the general assumption of the need to restirct, and, if possible - choke the AIs, WK in our case.

I also think that, by settling 1NW of the horses, V is trying to speed up our development by using the fps in the capital's vicinity to grow fast the third - prospective city - as well as to keep - if possible - and use for that development, at least initially, the horses in its small cross.

I have the same propensity - and weakness - as Cam, so I don't particularly like the idea but am willing to admit that V might be right that we need to hurry up as much as possible, or lose. I still would like to point out that this future city on 1NW of the horses will turn into a great liability in the mid-term. I'd assume that we'll try to boost research in the capital to the max working the 2 fps that overlap. Without them V's city will have only two or three farmable grasslands, iirc, and can grow max to size 7-8 till Bio while also producing something like 10 hammers at this max. The only big plus are the two plantations and - arguably - the horses. Of course, there is a chance that we might let WK occupy it, then reclaim it and raze it, but I don't think this city is viable as our THIRD city till V-day. All that said, I am willing to go along, as I am losing, not winning, my games on Monarch, and part of the reasons might well be rooted in trying to think long-term as opposed to the short-term (Sid is an American, right?!).

As to Cam's alternative - which I consider to be mainly a strategic choking point - I would rather prefer the PLAINS hill 4N of the horses: it has THE SAME choking effect - taking away the same tiles to East and NE (and I don't think that we'll be able to prevent WK from settling by the Southern coast), it has - from what can be seen as of now - THE SAME production capacity (after WK's shrine takes away the hill and the horses) and has 5-6, at least, fps in its small and fat cross. It could be added that we already have horses so the Eastern horses are predominantly a production resoures - and a back-up, of course - and that without lib+mon we won't be able to keep them under the pressure of WK's shrine, and lib+mon seem quite a redundant investment in such type of a city - arguably, I admit, in view of using the plantations and the 2 cottaged fps, taking the latter away from the capital.

Anyway, the issue of where to plant the third city is far from clear and placing it where V's planned has serious merits of its own, so I don't mind, again - and it will be interesting to see how this turns out!

I'd post only one more comment regarding V's plan - I think tech-wise he's correct, I am not sure we'll get the oracle, but there's a chance that WK will be building not only the ToA, but the Parthenon as well. This comment concerns your plan to whip an archer - we have something like 8 turns to research archery in order to be able to do that - and if you're thinking about a chariot, then sending the worker to the capital to chop immediately, ie before pasturing and hooking the horses, might be too risky.

@FR + Cam

you're both correct, the overlap is there and is functional.
I have to say that I didn't think how we will feed the city when we finally break through the happy cap and all FP's will go back to capital.

The point of the city is to work 2 FP's (cottages!) for capital where capital could work another 2, working 4 good tiles in the area around capital! where capital will work 3 more good tiles (Fp farm, plains cow and GH) eventually.

If we went with the east city FIRST AND BUILD COTTAGES ALREADY we would be near some of hamlets already!
We wasted around 15 worker turns on roads! that is 3 cottages!! In a situation where city placed 1 NW of east horses is INSTA connected with capital!

The culture pressure is worth mentioning and I thank you both of you for it. That means I will start with monument and will have to whip it at size 2. The inner tiles are your strongest tiles and I hope we could battle the holy city culture (the city will get library too).

The situation with horses and defense against barbs is to say the least tricky. I would avoid selfteching archery, it's really just another waste.
More interesting is how to get the horses up and some chariots, which are sufficient against archers.
I think the western city needs to be size 2 for the flexibility, should slowly finish the warrior on FP+horses and at size 2 will finish the worker which will improve the horses.
This allows us to whip quickly another warrior if the archer will start entering cultural borders (which should be pretty close and after the TGW is build we will see big rush on our cities) making the defense of west city 3 warriors.
I initially thought about moving the 2nd warrior out, but I will probably stay on the safe side, doesn't look like we could effectively spawnbust the area, especially with so low production.

What I am sad about is the "forest situation" around capital. We are put in a race for the eastern spot against our will and I will probably have to waste 3 forests just to correct this problem.
Those forest we will lack if we decide for Oracle and as I see it, people would still like to get the Oracle.

If we had better food capital I would use some OF magic, but no we can't do.

edit:

after watching at the map in SS above the east city will have 2 grassland riverside tiles, grassland horses, grassland hill on it's own, making it nice size 4/5 city. It will never be "killer city", but it's purpose is not to be killer city, it's purpose is to generate commerce while we're at low happy cap.
And what you know... we could whip there cat here and there if we go with cats.

Btw would be nice if we agree on the future! I am probably leaning on the REX side right now, where we would aim for around 8 selfbuilt cities at 1 AD since we missed the Oracle->Constr gambit.
Or we can still be on the way to Constr with Oracle->Alpha, but we will look at 1 AD+ warfare. But I think it still means we will explode with cities of our own.

Hi Guys

To be honest, I wasn't particularly happy with my TS either. With regards to settling, I thought we had agreed on the dotmap proposed:

Cam_H said:

For lack of greater inspiration ...



... with a view to the 'blue area' on the southern Desert Hill as "The Evil Lair". Essentially an effort to split up the Floodplains and the Hills across several cities.

Click to expand...

Although there is no real excuse for not posting a proper PPP, I was simply following this idea:

Cam_H said:

See ... you're learning already.

'Yes' woopdeedoo ... it's you.

PPP? I guess complete current Warrior build, and then another, then a Settler. Tech' The Wheel > Pottery > Bronze? Mine the bare Grassland Hill and Farm another Floodplain before Cottages I guess.

Click to expand...

Now, in all honesty, I do feel that the TS could have gone better but since I wasn't online this weekend, I thought it better for me to get the TS out ASAP. I messed it up and apologise for that.

P.S. Bay of Storms should give you a hint as to where in SA I live

We will never forgive you, woopdee

Cam's PPP comment are just suggestions, but ultimately it's the responsibility of the current TS player to put together a plan which we can then debate. Since this is a casual succession game, I don't get too caught up in overly detailed plans (check out the SGOTMs). However, since we play as a group it is a good thing to discuss the plan a bit, especially in regards to settling spots, builds, and diplo/actions. Of course, it's a good learning experience too as we all learn from each other.

lymond said:

We will never forgive you, woopdee

Click to expand...

:suicide:

Seriously though, I will be a lot more detailed in future turns and posts and I hope that the SNAFU didn't screw us too badly.