Science challenge - Settler to Deity

I don't have a good handle on how early Temple of Artemis goes on Prince, so I was probably way too conservative in rushing it...

I'm curious if other people like to build Angkor Wat in their lower-difficulty science runs.

Not yet on Prince, but on warlord ToA use to fall between T55-90. As GL fall between T50-80.

I have same issue with border expand and Angkor Wat help a little. More for discount tiles purchase than natural expand.
 
Since this is a SV challenge are we allowed to turn off all the other VCs?
 
In case if somebody is still interested I post my saves from my T 208 immortal science Babylon victory game.

I find it interesting that you took Scholasticism. Did you feel it was worth it ? My calculations at the time of your save indicates Freethought would have been worth 46science vs 61 from scholasticism.

Currently replaying, at T196 Scholasticism is worth 107 with all CS allied and FreeThought is worth 81.
 
OK I'll share all this saves as soon as my submission will be accepted (I do not want to mess something with my saves)



I signed only one RA immediately after education for the test and I was pleasantly surprised because it turned out not so bad (but in this period there are so many other things that you can spend the money - rush buy universities, ally CS, etc..) I think the earlier you sign RA the better.
I rush bought one university, few public schools, all RLs

I forgot to mention but I lost LToP by two turns and PT (waited too long - stupid diplomacy screen doesn't show first policy, didn't show somebody took rationalism)
With this sub 200T victory was possible.

So I replayed your game from the ideology save. I purposely kept the wonders in production (GT and LToP) you had started even if like you I ended up missing both LToP and GT.
I could have gotten Porcelain but I purposely did not build it to make the comparison more fair (I did not know if you had started it in your game so I did put 4-5 turns in it).

I chose freedom and used my late Appollo + buy all parts strategy and finished T203. (As far as wonders go I got SoL which I rushed with a GE).

Also since you went Patronage instead of Commerce I had to pay full price for the parts so I had to accumulate 18300 gold lol.

Spoiler :


Interestingly enough my growth isn't that much higher than yours but I've been working every slot (and started to build market/banks/stockexchange as soon as I could) since T145.

Now with LToP and PT that would have been easy to get a sub 200.
 
Did you use Lib+Trad ? I'd be very interested to see how you manage the mid game culture. I usually feel Rationalism takes too long if I have to use 2 policies before renaissance (unless you play Poland).

Oh and by the way Tommynt can you post your save just before Ideology ? Would be around T140 I guess.
 
The rules paged linked to in the OP doesn't mention BWN and only says the Civ DLCs for G&K. However, according to this post all DLC is allowed with BWN. So is WotAW allowed for this challenge or not?
All DLC is fine to have installed & enabled for BNW. The only DLC that will actually appear in a HOF game are the ancient wonders and the various civs. Stuff like map packs & scenarios just give you more choices when setting up a game, but will change nothing when setting up a game with an allowed maptype.
 
The rules paged linked to in the OP doesn't mention BWN and only says the Civ DLCs for G&K. However, according to this post all DLC is allowed with BWN. So is WotAW allowed for this challenge or not?

It is.
Title of this thread is «[BNW] Science challenge». :D

Sorry for the confusion, I updated OP. :blush:
 
Regarding Scholasticism (immortal level):

So after replaying the game from ironfighterxxx I really wonder how much worth it really is. By the way were you forced to take it ?

Based on my findings above, it was worth around 20 more science than Free thought. In that game Free Thought was able to be taken around T160 if I remember correctly. So for the next 40 turn we can attribute approximately 4000beakers out of scholasticism (100 per turn, compared to not taking it at all) and for the period between taking scholasticism and Free Thought I'd guess there was also approximately 30turns for around 600 (30x20) beakers.

So Scholasticism was a net 4600beakers in that game (grossly). Now if instead the points had went to mercantilism in commerce I'd have ended with an easier time to buy a lot of stuff and 3 base science in every city (one for each money building).
Let's ignore pre labs benefits. Labs were at T163 so for the next 37turns I have (3x3 + 3x4x2.5)x1.1 =42.9 beakers out of mercantilism for a total of 1587.3

Now the thing is and correct me if I'm wrong but scholasticism doesn't boost GS bulbs. So we have to also add the bigger bulbs:
49.5x8 = 343 per GS. We bulb 10GS I believe in the end. So a total of 3430beakers.

So mercantilism is worth a total of 5019.3 plus whatever it's worth prior to labs (small amount since I'd have taken FT first). Also taking FT can grant faster GSs.

Not a very accurate comparison since I did not note the exact policies timings but something to consider.

Edit: I wonder if rationalism opener is included into GS bulb actually. would lower the previous calculation for mercantilism to 4707.3
Edit2: A quick in game tests proves that neither scholasticism nor the rationalism Opener are calculated into the bulbs. Only the cities outputs.
 
Regarding Scholasticism (immortal level):
So after replaying the game from ironfighterxxx I really wonder how much worth it really is. By the way were you forced to take it ?

If I remember correctly I allied two cultural CSs quite early (barb quests), so I had to choose two SP before renaissance- decided patronage mostly for test to see how good scholasticism can be.


Labs were at T163 so for the next 37turns I have (3x3 + 3x4x2.5)x1.1 =42.9 beakers out of mercantilism for a total of 1587.3

Now the thing is and correct me if I'm wrong but scholasticism doesn't boost GS bulbs. So we have to also add the bigger bulbs:
49.5x8 = 343 per GS.

Could you explain 2.5, 1.1 numbers in yours calculations and why you multiply 49.5 rather than 42.9 (sorry, last time I had math few years ago on studies ;))
 
If I remember correctly I allied two cultural CSs quite early (barb quests), so I had to choose two SP before renaissance- decided patronage mostly for test to see how good scholasticism can be.




Could you explain 2.5, 1.1 numbers in yours calculations and why you multiply 49.5 rather than 42.9 (sorry, last time I had math few years ago on studies ;))

Actually 49.5 is a mistake, it should be 42.9 but the result is still 343. However as noted in Edit and Edit2 there is a mistake here due to the ratio opener not being into bulbs values.

2.5 is the city science modifier (150% for labs, observatories, universities: (1+3x0.5). 3 is the same but for the Cap with NC. 1.1 is rationalism opener.

To sum up since my initial post is chaotic:

Going FT then Mercantilism post lab (in above scenario) is worth:
3 science per city (cap and 4 satellites) gives a total of (3x3 + 3x2.5x4)x1.1 = 42.9 bpt per turn. This is worth 42.9/1.1 before rati opener.
For 37 turns: 37x42.9 = 1587.3
For 10 bulbs: 42.9/1.1 x 8 x 10 = 3120
Total: 4707

Going Scholasticism over FT and then FT:
For 30 turns where I could have taken FT, schola is 20 more than FT: 30x20 = 600
For 40 turns where I have both schola is worth 100: 100x40 = 4000
Total 4600

With very approximated turn numbers as noted, but I'd guess these calculations are skewed into scholasticism favor (assumed T130schola and neglected pre lab influence of Mercantilism and the possible value of +25% GPP for GS).

If I remember correctly I allied two cultural CSs quite early (barb quests), so I had to choose two SP before renaissance- decided patronage mostly for test to see how good scholasticism can be.

Ok the thing being Mercantilism is terrible before you have banks and stock exchange so taking it early is bad for science. I thought you took scholasticism over FT but if you had to put 3 into a tree before renaissance Patronage is the good decision I'd think.
 
Do we have to stick with the default number of civs and city states?
 
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