SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

With suitable results, I could be sold on "worker-switch to WB-settler-finish worker", because the second settler gives the worker increased useful things to do, however we probably do some significant rotting on the worker.
If you think half worker-WB-Settler-finish worker might be good, my Wrist in 58 turns beats that, because the worker is never idle, and there are no hammers lost with half worker-WB-finish worker. Sure, Wrist comes in later, but it has power tiles to work from day 1 (corn farm, ph mine, or clams).

So the question is, how does the empire production at my turn 58 compare to the test games of others?

dV
 
Here is the result of my first full play through to completion of the Oracle. IMO, the results are marginal at the least and satisfactory at the best. Oracle completed (whipped T103). Cap has NO other city buildings, city #2 has Lighthouse and Granary. We have 3 nets, corn farm, 3 mines and 2 forests chopped, and 1 partially chopped. Worker turns starting at T101 were not optimal. Exploring WB was produced at T78, we have 2 Workers and 2 Galleys. I believe that I did NOT whip nearly enough.

Techs researched in order and completion turn (#)...Fishing(10) > Mining(21) > BW(41) > Sailing(56) > Myst(63) > Poly(75) > Priest(81) > Pottery(88) > Writing(10) > Col (started T101)

One thing I noticed in testing using Mabs game#3, do not open borders when you research writing as that possibly inflates trade route :commerce: artificially if we have no island neighbors in the real game.

The best part of this test IMO is that City #2 was founded on T51, not that great, hence my overall rating as satisfactory at best.

Also, I am guessing that there IS a seafood resource in 1 of the 2 fogged tiles to the north. Why else would we NOT be able to see those tiles on T0 after moving the warrior? The alternative is that by settling on FPH we get access to additional islands to the north because of culture that we would not otherwise get access to. These assumptions come from the fact that I believe the map maker always tries to give options in settling, but tries to = out the positive aspects of either starting decision.

On another topic, how do we feel about the "Flying Camera" feature? I personally have never used it with any kind of success. I don't even know HOW to use it at this point. I know it is enabled in the .ini file, but don't remember how to access it in game. Given our water surrounded start, we may actually be able to gather some information from it if it is used properly/effectively.

Off for another attempt....
 
<SNIP>
On another topic, how do we feel about the "Flying Camera" feature? I personally have never used it with any kind of success. I don't even know HOW to use it at this point. I know it is enabled in the .ini file, but don't remember how to access it in game. Given our water surrounded start, we may actually be able to gather some information from it if it is used properly/effectively. ....
I wasn't aware there was a Flying camera feature until it was mentioned in the Maintenance Thread, so I had never used it. But just gave it a quick try. As mentioned, you have to edit the civilization.ini file to make it available. It is activated in game with ALT+CTRL+F (I found this in the Civilopedia under Shortcuts/Camera). When activated, you can move the camera around with the mouse, and zoom in and out with the mouse wheel. So instead of the camera always looking "north" you can pan around and look in other directions. And if you see a tiny spec of land on the edge of the fog, you can zoom in on it from different angles, and Maybe you can come up with a better guess as to what type of land is on that tile.

I only played around with it for a few minutes. Other than the ability to zoom in, I'm not really sure it has any advantage over using CTRL+RIGHT or CTRL+LEFT to rotate the view 45 degrees (and you can always zoom in and out with the PAGE UP & PAGE DOWN keys). Perhaps expert fog-gazers could make better use of it than an old guy with bifocals? :scan: I have changed my .ini file back for now.
 
Re: The flying camera when oriented near to the horizon can reveal where mountains/forests are in the fog. Because even hidden mountains and forests cast shadows. So you can use it to figure out where an island or land might be deep into the fog that you couldn't otherwise determine.

I tried a hybrid expansion/whip-out-the-Pyramids game and got the Pyramids on T161 (not as impressive as mabraham's T151 Pyramids game, but I do have a granary in the capital (and lots of unhappy faces). The granary allows you to accelerate the whipping cycle and so it gets out more settlers/workers and looks like it delays the Pyramids by ~10 turns.

I was working on the colossus (but lost it to portugal since I traded him Metal Casting) Might not want to trade the GLH AI any techs as mabraham has pointed out in a previous post.

edit: this was the build plan (stolen mostly from mabraham's early attempt)
I followed the 1st wb, 2nd wb, whip 3rd wb, 4th wb, worker 2 whipped for max OF to lighthouse, galley 2 whipped into monument, then put OF from 3 pop whip of settler and a forest chop into granary, then 3 pop whipped settlers into the pyramids (a worker near the end and then 2 pop whip to finish pyramids)

got a forest growth somewhat earlier in the western 2 tile island that helped since I chopped it and contributed a few hammers when I worked before the chop. chopping did delay the mine but I'm sure the hammers from the chop made up for it.

I also got a forest growth 1N of the plains hill that went into the 2nd city.

stats
7 cities, 20 pop
capital pyramids, granary, lighthouse, monument
other cities
1 forge, 3 granaries, 4 lighthouses, 2 monuments, 1 library
improvements
1 farm, 5 fishing boats (1 lost to barb), 6 mines, 1 workshop
units
4 warriors, 1 trireme (lost to barb), 1 galley, 4 workers.
 

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Also, I am guessing that there IS a seafood resource in 1 of the 2 fogged tiles to the north. Why else would we NOT be able to see those tiles on T0 after moving the warrior?

You can't see those tiles on T0 of the test games either, when there is no seafood. Range of vision is determined by distance, relative altitude and obstructions. Hills and forests are obstructions, so our post-move warrior can't see, and our settler is too far away. I did a world-builder test taking away the forest and hill and I was able to see those PFH-BFC water tiles with warrior from PFH.

The alternative is that by settling on FPH we get access to additional islands to the north because of culture that we would not otherwise get access to. These assumptions come from the fact that I believe the map maker always tries to give options in settling, but tries to = out the positive aspects of either starting decision.

Maybe. Alternatively, the "options" could be SIP or settle-PFH or SIP+3E. Or they thought "Who would even imagine giving away food? They'll all SIP".

Also, said islands would have to have
  • a critical resource in the window between the 2nd and 3rd settle-PFH border pop (which will probably be in the window of of SIP between the 3rd and fourth SIP border pop), because culture will grow to one past the first sea square, but no further
  • not be worth settling on their own, and
  • us have time and galley post-Maths to get a worker there to get a fort up.

Here's a screenshot of a worldbuilder version of such a scenario immediately on the third settle-PFH border pop.

Spoiler :


The nearest northern land was in the borders before the pop, and the other one is still outside (and will stay outside). OTOH the fourth border pop of SIP will get this northern land tile:

Spoiler :
 
Just out of curiosity, where is everyone building the wonders? Wrist, where there are three mines, or Elba, where there are only two?

I took another stab at my early worker method, got oracle at 110, have third city on SE island (two clams one netted, grass (cottaged) and mine (Wrist borrows for Oracle). Still might shorten it with different tech order ... really early myst may be better (right after BW).

dV
 

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  • dV early worker Oracle at T 110 TEST GK SG13 BC-1250.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Chopping into the settler gets Wrist at turn 58 (2 turns earlier), and the second WB is 1 turn away. Techs reserached are fishing, mining, BW, pottery, working on writing (maybe that should be sailing).

The worker gets road to Wrist done just in time for the settler to get there in one move.

This looks like the optimal early worker scenario, so how does this compare with all of the no worker tests (or no early worker tests)?

The worker is NEVER idle in this scenario, to this point. He can still chop the grass forest to speed Paris production.

Yeah but he's about to be idle. He's got 18 turns before the Elba border pop, so he can chop(5), cottage(6), road(3), move(1), road(3) just in time for mine(6) and then he spins his wheels until we can afford a galley, and he's not hugely useful then either.

So the question is, how does the empire production at my turn 58 compare to the test games of others?

Most of the other games did not prioritise an early settler. I did a 3*WB prioritising early settler. I got BW T41 and switched to it. I grew to size 4 almost as I finished the third WB. Whipped settler, settled T55 just after I'd finished teching fishing, mining, BW, sailing. Obviously I have no worker yet, so my land tiles are untouched. You look to be a few :science: ahead (from fast BW? did you whip ever?), even given you had 3 extra turns. I have 3 nets and a PFH to work already. You had net, corn, PHmine at that point, with second WB on the way. Saved game.

Since nobody's come up with a plausible game-plan that isn't greatly enhanced by a wonder, I'm keen to hold onto our precious :hammers:-bank grassland forests until chopping them serves a clear strategic purpose. Also, as I said earlier in the thread, keeping two forests for :health: in at least Elba is useful until we get some trades or more :health: resources.
 
Just out of curiosity, where is everyone building the wonders? Wrist, where there are three mines, or Elba, where there are only two?

Since we only found out about Wrist's third mine a few days ago, most of the tests have build the wonders in Elba.

I took another stab at my early worker method, got oracle at 110, have third city on SE island (two clams one netted, grass (cottaged) and mine (Wrist borrows for Oracle). Still might shorten it with different tech order ... really early myst may be better (right after BW).

I followed on from my 3WB fast-settler and got Oracle in Wrist T103. I didn't get the third mine up in time for the Oracle. Elba and Wrist had lighthouses, Wrist had monument, Fingers had netted clam. I could have been somewhat faster on the Oracle if I'd built the galley in Wrist instead of the monument, built a settler in Elba, and used the settlement in Fingers to give me culture on Wrist's third hill. Saved game.

This does suggest to me that 3WB is outperforming early-worker. Thoughts, people?
 
The 3WB start seems to clearly outperform an early worker to me. Both the interrupted worker and the worker built 1st is a weaker start than 3 workboats.

I played a little bit with the pyramids save, it is going to be a tough game. The AI will have an early tech lead and expansion lead on us.

Not sure when exactly to switch to caste system since we might want to whip out some cheap courthouses if we have expanded significantly. And even with representation we are going to take a while to catch up to the AI. (edit: not only for maintenance savings, but I also think espionage could play a significant role in this game especially against the the Great Lighthouse AI)

The real game obviously could be different but regardless of whether or not we can reach them with galleys or not it is going to take some serious thought on how we are going to out tech them.
 
I just abandoned an interrupted worker attempt at T66 when it was clearly inferior.

On another note, here are 8 flying camera shots, 1 each from the compass points, and 1 each from in between those points. What I get out of these shots is that there seems to be islands in all directions and most if not all have trees to some degree.

The shots start from due N and go clockwise.
 
I managed to get my interrupted worker start to Oracle at turn 104, but looks like I have a bit less infrastructure in the cities compared to Mab's Oracle 103 save. There might be a way to save the hill whip until it can whip into oracle, if we think we need to save about two more turns. The grass forest is still intact in my save ... if that chops the settler, then hill forest could go into Oracle.

Worker does get bogged down waiting for border pops to get to the other mines. If the worker had useful work every turn (more land to improve) then the early worker might win, but seems that with so much water, the worker gets to diminishing returns after a point.

Maybe R1's oracle at 103 isn't so bad after all?

In my Oracle at 110 attempt, I think I got granaries early with early pottery ... and i think had more infrastructure at that point (have to take a look). If we sacrifice early development in a full court press to Oracle, are we shooting ourselves in the foot more than the Oracle benefit can make up?

dV
 

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  • dV early worker Oracle T 104 TEST GK SG13 BC-1275.CivBeyondSwordSave
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I played out the pyramids game (that I posted a few posts ago) a little ways, beelined astronomy. Things are looking okay.
-Still somewhat behind the AI in tech, but catching up with trades and I believe faster research with the specialists.
-Militarily very weak, depending on drafting stage to catch up with that.
-Vulnerable if we have a close AI in the short term in the real game.


Production. I might not be expanding fast enough and without slavery our production really takes a big hit. I razed a barbarian city since it was poorly placed, but even a settler without slavery is a hard build.
I have ~6 swordsmen for barbarian cities.
Timed a few chops to get a galleon about the same time as astronomy.
I ended up having to build several triremes for barbarian galley protection.

Great people/research
I switched to pacifism with caste system after a whipping courthouse phase. I popped 2 great scientists 1st GS was from the 2 clam city which got an early library. 2nd GS was from the capital (some risk of Great engineer with the pyramids). I got a great merchant from a side city running merchants (probably could have afforded to run scientists since I was getting some gold from trades with the AI)
I'm not trading Astronomy to the AI, seems like something we want to keep as a military advantage if possible.
I got beat to music and the free Great Artist by 1 turn :(

I got an academy in the capital with 1 GS, and 1 GS partially bulbed Astronomy.
The Great Merchant waits to do a trade mission with the AI.

City management
The happiness and health issues are significant if our real game start is as sparse as Griff's III test game (I should have taken out the huts too, but they only gave me ~50 gold so far, I did take out the fish on the eastern shore for the whole game)
I stopped actively growing most of the cities with pacifism & caste system switch over, other than what they could grow with their good food (mostly seafood) resource tiles. Slowly built up the specialist population you can see in the save.

Possible useful insights for the real game
-With all the AI so far away an early-ish Forbidden palace or Communism might be something to shoot for.
-Balancing trades with the AI so we can catch up to them but don't accelerate them too much will be a delicate dance.
-Whipping early courthouses I think pays off, in reduced maintenance and free espionage
---However espionage will possibly be very expensive unless we more our capital closer (and build the Forbidden palace near original starting location) or gift chain a few cities so get a city close to us with our culture for massive espionage cost discounts.
-We are vulnerable if we switch to Caste system early since we sacrifice a lot of production to maximize the benefit from the pyramids. And workshops aren't that great until we get Chemistry and/or Guilds and/or Communism.


If anyone is interested in playing an Oracle game out or a game focused on pure growth (no wonders) it would be interesting to compare the empire situation (tech, number cities, military, etc) with and without the pyramids.
 

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I just completed another test run and got a later Oracle but had Granaries and Lighthouses in both cites, 2 settlers and 1 LESS forest chopped. What got sacrificed was WB#4 for exploring.

At this point, I think we need to define our priorities.

How fast do we want to settle city #2 and future cities?
How fast do we really need the Oracle?
How soon do we want WB 4 to explore?
 
I just completed another test run and got a later Oracle but had Granaries and Lighthouses in both cites, 2 settlers and 1 LESS forest chopped. What got sacrificed was WB#4 for exploring.

At this point, I think we need to define our priorities.

How fast do we want to settle city #2 and future cities?
How fast do we really need the Oracle?
How soon do we want WB 4 to explore?
Ho
How late was that oracle? In Griffs test game, AI grabs it at T 111.

Is that Oracle in Elba or in Wrist? If we think Elba is eventually the GP farm, then do we want oracle there to concentrate the GPers points, or not there to keep the gene pool clean?

dV
 
Hmm, if the the choice is between SIP and 3 WB, which I assume means losing the initial 10 hammers, or SIP and interupted worker, then in either case, we could put 10 turns into worker, finish fishing, and then analyze a more accurate test save from there ... if that adds anything.

Or is plains hill settle still in the running?

dV
 
Hmm, if the the choice is between SIP and 3 WB, which I assume means losing the initial 10 hammers, or SIP and interupted worker, then in either case, we could put 10 turns into worker, finish fishing, and then analyze a more accurate test save from there ... if that adds anything.

Or is plains hill settle still in the running?

dV

Did you mean 10 turns into a warrior or worker? Because the tests show that the worker isn't worth it.

I think it does make sense to SIP and play to the end of fishing while building a barracks or warrior (doesn't matter since the plan is to let those hammers go to waste). Then we can scout out the entire island and develop more accurate tests.

I think we are coming close to consensus on SIP and growing on a barracks or warrior build.
 
I think our TOP priority should be to get city #2 founded ASAP while building 3WB's. The option comes when it is time to whip the settler. Do we wait for MAX overflow to finish WB#3 in 1 turn or whip at the EARLIEST WHIP? There is a difference of 4 turns.

I just ran through it again.

I THINK I like waiting to whip for MAX overflow which in this case is 40H, for a couple reasons....
1) The overflow allows immediate completion of WB#3, this times very well with the settling of C2, as all 3 nets are available when C2 is founded.
2) The other thing I like goes back to a decision I made on T40...Pottery or Sailing after BW. If we go Pottery, the 1st build in C2 can be Granary and Cap can build Granary after WB#3 completes so it can grow back to size 4.

So at T54, we have 2 cities and 3 nets all being worked!

If we whip ASAP, we get city 2 planted 4 turns sooner, but the 3rd net is not available until T57. With this option, it does grow sooner obviously because it is planted sooner...so we are working another tile sooner, even though it is an unimproved tile.
 
Trying to prove 3WB beats early worker
I did another 3WB-fast settler, whipped Paris down to 1 to build a worker ASAP, and tried building monument+granary in Wrist to get the border pop to work 3 mines on the Oracle. That was going to improve on my T103 3WB Oracle time, but an AI did the Oracle in T97. We have to be aiming under 100 for an Oracle.

Trying again
I went again, built only the monument in Wrist, and 2-whipped Oracle in Wrist on T96. That was so fast the monument was not useful for getting the border pop for the off-island mine. So I need not have been raping Elba to get the galley out fast.

The fast-Colossus run
So I went again, got Oracle T97 this time (not sure why this was slower), timing my Elba Galley whip to overflow onto the forge for a 3-wonder attempt. Then I got out a forge in Elba in a couple of turns, and started working the engineer. On one run I got the Colossus next at T131 (in case this becomes relevant data).

The triple-wonder run
On the run in which I was really interested, I delayed the Colossus to keep the Great Engineer pool clean. Each 3 turns of Colossus during the Great Engineer push gets a Great Person 2 turns sooner, but with +4% chance of the wrong species. (Admittedly a Great Merchant would bulb Currency, which is not all bad.) I timed things so that a double chop got the Colossus in Elba T151, when the Great Engineer popped, to build Pyramids there T152. I played pretending I was isolated, so haven't met the AIs on Grifftavian's save yet. I avoided Meditation.

At this point I had 4 cities with total population 14. Production in them was :)food:/:hammers:/:commerce:) respectively 19/8/26, 14/7/6, 16/1/15, 2/5/1. I had three :yuck: so my net empire-wide production was 20/21/48. I had four monuments, three lighthouses, two granaries and a forge. I had Maths and one-third of CoL (which could have been on Currency). Two cities were ready to grow. I had a settler one-third done, a granary one-third done, and a WB almost done. Another WB was staking out a soon-to-be-available fish. Two warriors were staking out two more city sites. :yuck: was going to be a problem in Elba for a while. There's 114 prophet-:gp: from the Oracle, which we probably want to avoid popping into a Great Person (except maybe for a Golden Age when we switch to Nationalism). Exploration was not very high, but I could have prioritised it at T98 if I'd wanted to.

This looks like it has to be the best jumping-off position anybody has achieved yet. It feels like a suitable balance of risk (needed to do well in SGOTM) and flexibility (our strategy is uncommitted) and reward (obvious). The Oracle and Pyramids were delivered at times that are competitive with the best AI times we've seen. If we'd lost the Oracle, we could still have done a fairly competitive Pyramids "by hand". If we'd wanted to skip one of Colossus or Pyramid, we could have done so any time up to about T130. If we get beaten to the Pyramids, we can still save the Great Engineer for our National Epic or Globe Theatre. Having succeeded in all three wonders, we can now finish some expansion, work coast tiles usefully if we want to, do a whipping run, and judge when to switch to Caste+Rep for the serious :science:-push - for example, by GS-spamming to bulb Astro.

Key points of first 100 turns
  • tech fishing, mining, BW, pottery, myst, Poly, PH, sailing, writing, maths, (masonry just before Pyramids can be popped), currency/CoL
  • SIP 3WB wasting 10:hammers:
  • Elba then builds settler (2-whip) and worker ASAP 1-whip
  • worker farms corn (no road), spends a few turns on the PFH mine, but then skips to get the GHmine up first (since that's +2:hammers:), then back to finish PFH mine, then two roads
  • Wrist builds granary, whipped onto Oracle, then Oracle. Then build whatever explorers, infrastructure and expansion to taste.
  • Elba then dawdles through granary build, timing galley-whip for the turn the Oracle finishes (to overflow onto forge), then whip out forge ASAP. Work engineer for next 50 turns building whatever looks useful - do not use the damn city governor! Be careful when whipping, you can lose your engineer!
  • Galley transports worker to get the off-island GHmines working. Later, organize life to chop/workshop both GF onto the Colossus at the right time.

Zip file of various saved games en route


T151 post-colossus saved game
 
Given the lack of thundering support for the settle-PFH and wait-one-turn T0 ideas, and every player apart from Grifftavian and adrianj having explicitly supported SIP, I will get started soon.

In a few days I will do the SIP, build barracks and do the 10 turns of fishing working the corn. I will stop if anything interesting happens (e.g. border pop reveals relevant things). By then we should have enough consensus for me to produce a proper pre-play-plan out as far as the third workboat. (Will have to go back and check what R1 suggested should be my end-of-turn marker)

Is there merit in WB-WB-settler-WB-worker?
 
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